LOL. I told my wife that you would say that EXACTLY word for word. Amazing, how you think you can use that as an excuse, EVERY TIME we show you a verse that DESTROYS YOUR THEORY. LOL, you are amazing. IT IS LITERAL, and your excuse in the red letters above, will not fly well with HIM after HIS SECOND COMING. So how many people did you deceive with that falsehood?
When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
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LOL. I told my wife that you would say that EXACTLY word for word. Amazing, how you think you can use that as an excuse, EVERY TIME we show you a verse that DESTROYS YOUR THEORY. LOL, you are amazing. IT IS LITERAL, and your excuse in the red letters above, will not fly well with HIM after HIS SECOND COMING. So how many people did you deceive with that falsehood?
G
Daniel 9:
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Verse 24:
70 weeks ( 490 years ) to fulfill list of things in verse ( which brings us up to the First Coming of Christ )
Verse 25:
69 weeks ( 483 years ) from command to restore until Christ
The "street and wall" part is an 'aside' -- it does not occur after 69 weeks; however, it does set a mark in time for verse 26.
Verse 26:
62 weeks from the time the city is finished ( ~52.5 years from command ) until Christ is crucified
The "prince" part is an 'aside' -- this is referring to 70 A.D. and aftermath.
Verse 27:
Still talking about 'Messiah'.
you might find that the rcc heresy started it --- they have always wanted to rule the earth, as hasatans puppets,
and they want people to think, completely deceived, that they are .... well..... it's best not to even repeat what they are.... just let's say they are from the pit.....
and a lot of others, rcc supporters or not, have been completely deceived and lost truth from their lives because they
would not
turn to yahweh , and trust in yahshua, and in HIS WORD....
and they want people to think, completely deceived, that they are .... well..... it's best not to even repeat what they are.... just let's say they are from the pit.....
and a lot of others, rcc supporters or not, have been completely deceived and lost truth from their lives because they
would not
turn to yahweh , and trust in yahshua, and in HIS WORD....
I believe that there is...
Daniel 9:
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
In the 'grammar of the language', the "sense and tense" of the phrase 'Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city' is that of "cut-off time-limit" / "bring to an close" / "bring to an end" ( i.e. - a "one-shot" span ) -- and not "meted out allotment", as in "a little now, a little later" ( as if 'spent' in increments ).
The effect of it is to say "you have 490 more years" [ from now ] "and you're done"...
It is indicating that "in the next 490 years, the following will be accomplished" :
~ to finish the transgression
~ to make an end of sins
~ to make reconciliation for iniquity
~ to bring in everlasting righteousness
~ to seal up the vision and prophecy
~ to anoint the most Holy
All of these were accomplished during the First Coming of Christ.
The prophecy is pointing to the 'end' of the "times of the Jews" ( my phrase, patterned after the "times of the Gentiles" from Luke 21:24 ).
Daniel 9:
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
In the 'grammar of the language', the "sense and tense" of the phrase 'Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city' is that of "cut-off time-limit" / "bring to an close" / "bring to an end" ( i.e. - a "one-shot" span ) -- and not "meted out allotment", as in "a little now, a little later" ( as if 'spent' in increments ).
The effect of it is to say "you have 490 more years" [ from now ] "and you're done"...
It is indicating that "in the next 490 years, the following will be accomplished" :
~ to finish the transgression
~ to make an end of sins
~ to make reconciliation for iniquity
~ to bring in everlasting righteousness
~ to seal up the vision and prophecy
~ to anoint the most Holy
All of these were accomplished during the First Coming of Christ.
The prophecy is pointing to the 'end' of the "times of the Jews" ( my phrase, patterned after the "times of the Gentiles" from Luke 21:24 ).
I used to believe the Pre-trib too as it was taught in my church growing up. But through independent study and prayer over the years I have come to see that the Pre-Trib view is wrong. Have you ever held the Post Trib view? Probably not. Therefore it should be incumbent on any one who is really concerned with the truth of such matters to at least listen to those of us who once held your view, but were convicted against it.
My testimony on this is pretty amazing. One day after listening to my father (a pre-trib teaching pastor) and my older brother (a post tribber) debate the subject at dinner one night, I decided to open my mind and study everything in the Bible concerning the Return of Christ, the Tribulation, and the timing of both. 2 Thessalonians chapters 1 and 2 really opened my eyes. Paul could not be telling the same church in 1 Thes that they were going to be raptured before the trib then tell them in 2 Thess that they were to be raptured after the Man of Sin. 2 Thes clarifies the timing for 1 Thes. When my eyes opened, the experience was incredible as powerful a feeling as when the Holy Spirit came in when I received Christ.
At that moment, I was floored and started seeing things completely different. I realized that just about everything concerning prophesy was wrong. I started saying to myself things like this:
1. This means the Trib Saints are really heroes enduring tremendous persecution and death for their faith. They are not a group of sub-standard left-behinds.
2. This means the Tribulation is of Satan and not of God.
3. This means all the warnings are for us, not the left behinds who don't know the scripture.
4. This means those who are tested by Satan are Christians; that Christians are the target of Satan to embarrass God.
5. This means we need to be prepared to be witnesses and stand up for God during Satan's Great Tribulation rather than taking a hands off approach as morals decline, thinking "who cares, I'm going to be raptured."
6. This means the Great Multitude in Heaven is the Church (or most of it) and they are killed during the GT. They are not new believers. They are us.
7. This means that Christ returns once, not twice. When He comes, He rescues the remnant.
8. All are to be tested. We are to suffer Tribulation for our faith as Christ promises. We are to heed His warnings. We are to know the correct order so that we are not deceived by Satan because Satan will be very believable.
It has become my spiritual calling to try to convince my fellow brothers and sisters to awaken to the truth as so many will be deceived and killed. They will not lose their salvation, but they will be so ashamed when they come face to face to God having "bowed down" to the wrong "god."
Remember this!! God always chooses a small group to defeat overwhelming odds so that He gets all the glory.
My testimony on this is pretty amazing. One day after listening to my father (a pre-trib teaching pastor) and my older brother (a post tribber) debate the subject at dinner one night, I decided to open my mind and study everything in the Bible concerning the Return of Christ, the Tribulation, and the timing of both. 2 Thessalonians chapters 1 and 2 really opened my eyes. Paul could not be telling the same church in 1 Thes that they were going to be raptured before the trib then tell them in 2 Thess that they were to be raptured after the Man of Sin. 2 Thes clarifies the timing for 1 Thes. When my eyes opened, the experience was incredible as powerful a feeling as when the Holy Spirit came in when I received Christ.
At that moment, I was floored and started seeing things completely different. I realized that just about everything concerning prophesy was wrong. I started saying to myself things like this:
1. This means the Trib Saints are really heroes enduring tremendous persecution and death for their faith. They are not a group of sub-standard left-behinds.
2. This means the Tribulation is of Satan and not of God.
3. This means all the warnings are for us, not the left behinds who don't know the scripture.
4. This means those who are tested by Satan are Christians; that Christians are the target of Satan to embarrass God.
5. This means we need to be prepared to be witnesses and stand up for God during Satan's Great Tribulation rather than taking a hands off approach as morals decline, thinking "who cares, I'm going to be raptured."
6. This means the Great Multitude in Heaven is the Church (or most of it) and they are killed during the GT. They are not new believers. They are us.
7. This means that Christ returns once, not twice. When He comes, He rescues the remnant.
8. All are to be tested. We are to suffer Tribulation for our faith as Christ promises. We are to heed His warnings. We are to know the correct order so that we are not deceived by Satan because Satan will be very believable.
It has become my spiritual calling to try to convince my fellow brothers and sisters to awaken to the truth as so many will be deceived and killed. They will not lose their salvation, but they will be so ashamed when they come face to face to God having "bowed down" to the wrong "god."
Remember this!! God always chooses a small group to defeat overwhelming odds so that He gets all the glory.
No I am not amazing. I just recognise that the Old Testament prophets had to prophesy in terms of the thinking of their own day otherwise they would not have been understood. LOL it is not my theory. IT IS THE TEACHING OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. When Jesus Christ comes God will call time on this world. Eternity in the NEW heavens and earth awaits. So after His second coming I will be with Him in the new earth and Zech 14 will be a thing of the past. Meanwhile you will be wondering how you could have been SOOOOOOOOOOO wrong.
But we will still welcome you there if you truly know Christ
But we will still welcome you there if you truly know Christ
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J
Boy, got me all worried again, like that angel you said is going to come to the door and hoodwink me, who'll come with a fake rapture. I don't know how on earth anybody will be able to tell the difference between being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, in a new, incorruptible body, and seeing the Antichrist on TV. That's what I like most about you post-tribbers, your sensibility.
Well lets play this rock solid foundation out.
The AC is "revealed".
Then the next day we get "caught up" "hapozoed" into heaven. Your scenario is fulfilled,but ,you missed the rapture.
Dad was right. Respect your elders son
Who said anything about the next day??? The Harpazo is on the last day.
Your scenario says:
Christ returns and "harpazos" away all the believers leaving the world with nothing but unbelieving sinners.
Having seen Christ, a Great Multitude become believers and start worshiping Jesus.
The next day (or soon after) the Man of Sin appears claiming to be Christ.
All (or most) of these baby Christians along with the rest of the world believe he is Christ and start worshiping him instead
The Man of Sin then kills most of these who worship him
Then Christ comes back with the harpazoed Saints and they kill all the unbelievers
The above makes no sense. How can you see the real Christ one day and watch Him snatch all the believers then the next see a different Christ and then think that this dude is Christ instead? Why would anyone believe Christ came back right away? Anyone who knows anything, knows that the Man of Sin comes before the Second (Wrath) return so wouldn't it be obvious the 2nd Christ is false, under your thinking?
The Man of Sin has to come first, just as Paul says, or he won't be able to fool anyone. That's just common sense.
As for respecting my dad, not in this case because he (and you) are wrong. I'm going to listen to Paul. Paul said concerning the return of Christ not to be deceived by any means. One of those means is the teaching that Jesus comes before the Man of Sin when Paul makes clear Jesus returns after the Man of Sin.
P
Who said anything about the next day??? The Harpazo is on the last day.
Your scenario says:
Christ returns and "harpazos" away all the believers leaving the world with nothing but unbelieving sinners.
Having seen Christ, a Great Multitude become believers and start worshiping Jesus.
The next day (or soon after) the Man of Sin appears claiming to be Christ.
All (or most) of these baby Christians along with the rest of the world believe he is Christ and start worshiping him instead
The Man of Sin then kills most of these who worship him
Then Christ comes back with the harpazoed Saints and they kill all the unbelievers
The above makes no sense. How can you see the real Christ one day and watch Him snatch all the believers then the next see a different Christ and then think that this dude is Christ instead? Why would anyone believe Christ came back right away? Anyone who knows anything, knows that the Man of Sin comes before the Second (Wrath) return so wouldn't it be obvious the 2nd Christ is false, under your thinking?
The Man of Sin has to come first, just as Paul says, or he won't be able to fool anyone. That's just common sense.
As for respecting my dad, not in this case because he (and you) are wrong. I'm going to listen to Paul. Paul said concerning the return of Christ not to be deceived by any means. One of those means is the teaching that Jesus comes before the Man of Sin when Paul makes clear Jesus returns after the Man of Sin.
Your scenario says:
Christ returns and "harpazos" away all the believers leaving the world with nothing but unbelieving sinners.
Having seen Christ, a Great Multitude become believers and start worshiping Jesus.
The next day (or soon after) the Man of Sin appears claiming to be Christ.
All (or most) of these baby Christians along with the rest of the world believe he is Christ and start worshiping him instead
The Man of Sin then kills most of these who worship him
Then Christ comes back with the harpazoed Saints and they kill all the unbelievers
The above makes no sense. How can you see the real Christ one day and watch Him snatch all the believers then the next see a different Christ and then think that this dude is Christ instead? Why would anyone believe Christ came back right away? Anyone who knows anything, knows that the Man of Sin comes before the Second (Wrath) return so wouldn't it be obvious the 2nd Christ is false, under your thinking?
The Man of Sin has to come first, just as Paul says, or he won't be able to fool anyone. That's just common sense.
As for respecting my dad, not in this case because he (and you) are wrong. I'm going to listen to Paul. Paul said concerning the return of Christ not to be deceived by any means. One of those means is the teaching that Jesus comes before the Man of Sin when Paul makes clear Jesus returns after the Man of Sin.
You said the ac is revealed before the rapture.
Where you go next is"so,that proves my dad was wrong about the pretrib rapture."
I am telling you,you have proved zero,and all that you say about the man of sin coming b4 the rapture and the subsequent grand canyon leap that follows is your conjecture,because the man of sin can come first in the pretrib rapture scenario.
Example;
The cat can not be carried out of the burning building till the guy with the gas can is revealed.
You place the guy with gas can in the ashes a month later.
In reality he showed up 5 seconds before the cat left
P
Well cory ten boone has your number mister.
And any way how can you tell a tortured saint in ethiopia with rats crawling all over him that God is a good God????
Huh??
Huh??
Huh???
Or,mr pretrib easy way out,
How can you tell a melting bananna split there is hope outside the north pole??
Huh??
Huh???
And any way how can you tell a tortured saint in ethiopia with rats crawling all over him that God is a good God????
Huh??
Huh??
Huh???
Or,mr pretrib easy way out,
How can you tell a melting bananna split there is hope outside the north pole??
Huh??
Huh???
J
Your first case of the hypothetical Ethiopian rats, trumping many clear teachings in the word of God on the pre-trib rapture, is probably the most compelling post-trib argument, to date. It's much better than threats of fake rapture angels, ringing doorbells, which, to be frank, I'd only mistake for Jehovah's Witnesses, in any case. I'll have to further consider this rats-trib argument, before abandoning clear scripture teaching.
But the second case? Everybody knows a banana split wouldn't even be aware of leaving the North Pole. After all, it's bananas. Sort of like being post-trib?
But the second case? Everybody knows a banana split wouldn't even be aware of leaving the North Pole. After all, it's bananas. Sort of like being post-trib?
G
Revelation 20:
[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Is there anyone who is not in agreement with the conclusion that this passage indicates that the 'first resurrection' includes those who "were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"...???
[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Is there anyone who is not in agreement with the conclusion that this passage indicates that the 'first resurrection' includes those who "were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"...???
I didn't say the AC was revealed and that the rapture immediately follows. The AC is a force on earth for a period of time before Christ returns. The rapture is the last day of this current age. Yes, the rapture comes after the AC but I didn't say how long after.
What Grand Canyon leap? Are you saying that the Man of Sin can come before the Pre-Trib Rapture? Wow. How can that be? The Man of Sin is largely responsible for the Great Trib. So how can he come before the Great Trib?
I'm not sure who the "cat" is in your example. I'm guessing the church? I assume the guy with the gas can is the AC? I assume the burning building is the Great Trib? If so, here's how it works. The guy with the gas can lights the building on fire with the cat inside. The cat gets fried as does his whole litter of kittens except for 1. The fireman (Jesus) shows up, puts out the fire and rescues the one kitten. He then arrests the guy with the gas can and throws him in jail for a very long time. Then the dead cat and all the kittens are resurrected and live happily ever after.
What Grand Canyon leap? Are you saying that the Man of Sin can come before the Pre-Trib Rapture? Wow. How can that be? The Man of Sin is largely responsible for the Great Trib. So how can he come before the Great Trib?
I'm not sure who the "cat" is in your example. I'm guessing the church? I assume the guy with the gas can is the AC? I assume the burning building is the Great Trib? If so, here's how it works. The guy with the gas can lights the building on fire with the cat inside. The cat gets fried as does his whole litter of kittens except for 1. The fireman (Jesus) shows up, puts out the fire and rescues the one kitten. He then arrests the guy with the gas can and throws him in jail for a very long time. Then the dead cat and all the kittens are resurrected and live happily ever after.
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P
Revelation 20:
[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Is there anyone who is not in agreement with the conclusion that this passage indicates that the 'first resurrection' includes those who "were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"...???
[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Is there anyone who is not in agreement with the conclusion that this passage indicates that the 'first resurrection' includes those who "were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"...???