Crossing the Red Sea

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A

atwhatcost

Guest
While I was not there and I am not a Biblical archeologist, there are two reasons why I reject the traditional sites for both the red sea crossing and mount sinai. First, there are alot of things the popular evangelical church today gets wrong. They promote that Jesus was white or European. Yet, he was Jewish. The popular evangelical church today ignores God's righteousness or common basic morals. They also believe in the Sethite view (Which is the popular view taught in Bible colleges); And the list goes on and on. So it makes sense that they get yet another thing concerning God's truth wrong. Second, your view is not simple and easy to see. It seems overly scholarly versus just basic evidences that you can tell a simple guy whereby he will get it. Coral in the shape chariot wheels, a rise in sea level off a beach like area so as to cross and it is appx. 35 miles to Jebel al Lawz. Jebel al lawz has tons of evidence that makes it obvious it is mt. Sinai. A burned top of the mountain that was not from volcanic activity. No other mountain was burned in this way. The split rocks has been found nearby. Elijah's cave. It is also in parallel with the longitude of Jerusalem. Which was a point Paul was trying to make in Galatians. So unless you can dumb it down so as to make your evidence a little more simple for us basic common folks, I have no real reason to consider it. For I already have good reasons for believing the sites that I do. For me, they are the type evidences to bring someone who has been seeking the truth about God.
Wow! You think we evangelicals don't know Jesus was from the middle east, thus not Caucasian? You don't have much experience with the evangelical church, do you?
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
Wow! You think we evangelicals don't know Jesus was from the middle east, thus not Caucasian? You don't have much experience with the evangelical church, do you?
If you ever been in a Christian book store, watched a Christian film on Jesus, Google Image searched Jesus, and talked with other believers on forums who post pictures of Jesus, they will always provide a white European version of Jesus.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
There are a number of reasons territories can change and or be called different names by different people groups. That is really not a rock solid evidence to prove your case. Do you know what I am refering to in Galatians? Paul was making a point in Galatians 4 about two covenants. Mt Sinai represents the Law and Jerusalem is directly above it longitude wise by a straight line (See verses 24-26 with a focus on verse 26).

Also, what other mountain in the world is burned at the top like Jebel al Lawz? I sure can't think of any like it and we know in Scripture that God burned the top of Mt. Sinai.
The summer before my family first went to Canada to fish, the road to the cabins had an avalanche that destroyed a section of the road. It was cool to run in the middle of a road with no traffic. I was there after first grade. (I must have been 6.)

The last time I walked along that area, I took my husband. I was 25. The only way you can tell there used to be a road there was if you kicked the rubble around the weeds. It was asphalt. Other than that what was a road was then a meadow. Nature takes over quickly.

When Mt St. Helena blew in 1980, scientist were sure it would take at least a century to recover. Nothing left but burnt trees and ash. The lake was a sixth of it's original size and, literally, covered in trees and debris. They'd be lucky to detect single-celled organisms in 20 years. Too much ash for lake life to survive.

Within 30 years, trees are back, mountain flowers are back, animals are back and fish are plentiful in that lake. (Men brought fish back to the lake, so it wasn't all God working it out alone.)

God landing on the mountain to talk to Moses was 3600 years ago. You can't explain burn marks as 3600 year old burn marks that are still there, unless you have no idea how quickly nature works. Sorry.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
If you ever been in a Christian book store, watched a Christian film on Jesus, Google Image searched Jesus, and talked with other believers on forums who post pictures of Jesus, they will always provide a white European version of Jesus.
I've been in Christian book stores -- no pictures of Christ. (Tends to kill off that second commandment, and we have no idea what he looked like to paint him.) I've watched both kinds of movies on Christ -- the use-whoever-we-can afford and the accurate ones. No purpose in Googling Jesus. No one took his photo and the Bible is purposely void of specifics. I also haven't been on forums where people post his picture. Am I deprived? lol
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
The summer before my family first went to Canada to fish, the road to the cabins had an avalanche that destroyed a section of the road. It was cool to run in the middle of a road with no traffic. I was there after first grade. (I must have been 6.)

The last time I walked along that area, I took my husband. I was 25. The only way you can tell there used to be a road there was if you kicked the rubble around the weeds. It was asphalt. Other than that what was a road was then a meadow. Nature takes over quickly.

When Mt St. Helena blew in 1980, scientist were sure it would take at least a century to recover. Nothing left but burnt trees and ash. The lake was a sixth of it's original size and, literally, covered in trees and debris. They'd be lucky to detect single-celled organisms in 20 years. Too much ash for lake life to survive.

Within 30 years, trees are back, mountain flowers are back, animals are back and fish are plentiful in that lake. (Men brought fish back to the lake, so it wasn't all God working it out alone.)

God landing on the mountain to talk to Moses was 3600 years ago. You can't explain burn marks as 3600 year old burn marks that are still there, unless you have no idea how quickly nature works. Sorry.
Doesn't make a difference if you believe or don"t believe. Doesn"t change the many evidences. In other words, it is not just the burned top of the mountain. There is the split rock, Elijah's cave, artifacts, engravings, it matches with Galatians 4:24-26, ect.
 
Aug 13, 2013
965
8
18
We know that Jesus was not American or English or from any other white country. Give us a break. :D
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
If you ever been in a Christian book store, watched a Christian film on Jesus, Google Image searched Jesus, and talked with other believers on forums who post pictures of Jesus, they will always provide a white European version of Jesus.
idolatry!...
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,396
113
God stacked the waters and they went on dry ground.....what else is there to know!
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
We know that Jesus was not American or English or from any other white country. Give us a break.
Never said that the evangelical church said he was actually European or American instead of Jewish. They clearly say he is Jewish but yet.... they promote images of him as being white or European. Therein lies the problem.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
I've been in Christian book stores -- no pictures of Christ.
Really? All the ones I have been to have them. I have seen them in several different states.

(Tends to kill off that second commandment, and we have no idea what he looked like to paint him.)
Don't know what you mean by this? Are you saying it is okay to have white or European images of Jesus?

I've watched both kinds of movies on Christ -- the use-whoever-we-can afford and the accurate ones.
Most movies I seen on Jesus are played by parts where the actor is white or European.

No purpose in Googling Jesus. No one took his photo and the Bible is purposely void of specifics.
It doesn't matter if you Google pictures of Jesus. Doesn't change the reality of Christians today falely creating a wrong image of Him.

I also haven't been on forums where people post his picture. Am I deprived? lol
God's Laws are pretty serious and they are no laughing matter. We are told not to make an image of anything up in Heaven. Jesus is up in Heaven.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
Doesn't make a difference if you believe or don"t believe. Doesn"t change the many evidences. In other words, it is not just the burned top of the mountain. There is the split rock, Elijah's cave, artifacts, engravings, it matches with Galatians 4:24-26, ect.
It does not match Gal 4. Paul used the first century AD Roman concept of Arabia in this passage. The Sinai Peninsula did not become part of Arabia until centuries later. In the first century AD, based on the prior use by Herodotus, Pliny and Strabo, Arabia extended from the Persian Gulf to the Nile Delta, thus including the Sinai Peninsula in Arabia. Paul would be perfectly correct in placing Mt. Sinai in the Sinai Peninsula because the Sinai Peninsula was part of Arabia of his day. But in the days of the exodus the Sinai Peninsula was not part of Arabia.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
It does not match Gal 4. Paul used the first century AD Roman concept of Arabia in this passage. The Sinai Peninsula did not become part of Arabia until centuries later. In the first century AD, based on the prior use by Herodotus, Pliny and Strabo, Arabia extended from the Persian Gulf to the Nile Delta, thus including the Sinai Peninsula in Arabia. Paul would be perfectly correct in placing Mt. Sinai in the Sinai Peninsula because the Sinai Peninsula was part of Arabia of his day. But in the days of the exodus the Sinai Peninsula was not part of Arabia.
I have a typo here in the first sentence. This should read "It does match Gal 4."
 
Dec 1, 2014
1,430
27
0
I totally agree with you...some have tried to correlate this event with a huge volcanic explosion in the Meditteranean Sea at the same time, sending locusts, pestilences, darkness, diseases, colored water and such downward to the south, hitting EGYPT. This would tend to completely eradicate GOD out of the equation, sadly.

Keep in mind..it is against all physics and scientifically impossible for a fat little Bumble bee to fly, much less houver, yet, nobody has told the Bumble Bee...except GOD.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
It does not match Gal 4. Paul used the first century AD Roman concept of Arabia in this passage. The Sinai Peninsula did not become part of Arabia until centuries later. In the first century AD, based on the prior use by Herodotus, Pliny and Strabo, Arabia extended from the Persian Gulf to the Nile Delta, thus including the Sinai Peninsula in Arabia. Paul would be perfectly correct in placing Mt. Sinai in the Sinai Peninsula because the Sinai Peninsula was part of Arabia of his day. But in the days of the exodus the Sinai Peninsula was not part of Arabia.
A map from 1851 disagrees with you.


 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
In Galatians 4, Sarai/Isaac is paralleled with Jerusalem (Representing Faith and Freedom) and Hagar/Ishmael is paralleled with Mt. Sinai of Arabia (Representing Law and Bondage). I believe Mt. Sinai is Mt. Jabal al Lawz in Saudi Arabia - Which lines up with Paul essentially sayng, Jerusalem is above Mount Sinai in Abrabia (i.e. Saudi Arabia)).

The phrase, “Jerusalem, which is above [Mount Sinai],” clarified that Jerusalem and Mount Sinai corresponded to the same line of longitude. “Above” is translated from the Greekano, a word that can also mean “upward” or “on the top” (ibid., #507). It appears in the NT nine times. Of chief interest here is its specific geographical meaning of “on the north” or “northward.” The word was used in this manner by the notable Greek historian Herodotus (Liddell and Scott 1889, 83-84). Paul’s inclusion of ano defined Jerusalem as being north of Mount Sinai on his line of sustoicheo.With these observations in mind, the geographical concepts in Galatians 4:25-26 can be summarized as follows:

1) Mount Sinai was in the Arabia of Paul’s day.
2) Sustoicheo: Jerusalem and Mount Sinai were on the same line of latitude or longitude.
3) Ano: Jerusalem was north of Mount Sinai.
4) The north-south relationship puts Jerusalem and Mount Sinai on a similar meridian of longitude.


Plotting Paul’s location for Mount Sinai

The map in Figure 4 shows the 35-15’E longitude meridian that passes just east of the Old City of Jerusalem. Moving southward, the line crosses the mountains of western Jordan, the ancient place of Mount Seir. Long before the Exodus, this region was synonymous withEdom, land that had been divinely granted to Esau, the brother of Jacob (Israel). Several arguments exist for not placing Mount Sinai in Edom, among them the biblical injunction that Esau’s territory was not to be violated by the Israelites

.




Source:
Mount Sinai and the Apostle Paul | Ancient Exodus
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama


A map from 1851 disagrees with you.


This map is correct. It placed Mt Sinai in the Pinai Peninsula which in the time of Paul was part of Arabia. It is clear you are not really reading my post but merely glancing over them.
 
Last edited:

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
In Galatians 4, Sarai/Isaac is paralleled with Jerusalem (Representing Faith and Freedom) and Hagar/Ishmael is paralleled with Mt. Sinai of Arabia (Representing Law and Bondage). I believe Mt. Sinai is Mt. Jabal al Lawz in Saudi Arabia - Which lines up with Paul essentially sayng, Jerusalem is above Mount Sinai in Abrabia (i.e. Saudi Arabia)).

The phrase, “Jerusalem, which is above [Mount Sinai],” clarified that Jerusalem and Mount Sinai corresponded to the same line of longitude. “Above” is translated from the Greekano, a word that can also mean “upward” or “on the top” (ibid., #507). It appears in the NT nine times. Of chief interest here is its specific geographical meaning of “on the north” or “northward.” The word was used in this manner by the notable Greek historian Herodotus (Liddell and Scott 1889, 83-84). Paul’s inclusion of ano defined Jerusalem as being north of Mount Sinai on his line of sustoicheo.With these observations in mind, the geographical concepts in Galatians 4:25-26 can be summarized as follows:

1) Mount Sinai was in the Arabia of Paul’s day.
2) Sustoicheo: Jerusalem and Mount Sinai were on the same line of latitude or longitude.
3) Ano: Jerusalem was north of Mount Sinai.
4) The north-south relationship puts Jerusalem and Mount Sinai on a similar meridian of longitude.


Plotting Paul’s location for Mount Sinai

The map in Figure 4 shows the 35-15’E longitude meridian that passes just east of the Old City of Jerusalem. Moving southward, the line crosses the mountains of western Jordan, the ancient place of Mount Seir. Long before the Exodus, this region was synonymous withEdom, land that had been divinely granted to Esau, the brother of Jacob (Israel). Several arguments exist for not placing Mount Sinai in Edom, among them the biblical injunction that Esau’s territory was not to be violated by the Israelites

.




Source:
Mount Sinai and the Apostle Paul | Ancient Exodus
Jerusalem which is above is referring to a heavenly Jerusalem, not to a point on the map
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
I wanted to add that no other mountain was found to be burned at the top in such an odd an unusual way like Jebel al Lawz. For Scripture says God burned the top of the Mountain. I mean, even the name should give somebody a clue, as well. Lawz. For it is where Moses received the written Law from God.
LAWZ = Law Is this intended to be a joke? Or is it a claim that Moses originally wrote in English?