Nondenominational

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M

mikeuk

Guest
#61
But what does non denominational mean in practice?
Does anything go in interpretation?

For example the eucharist. There are five flavours all the way from "real flesh and blood" to "only symbolic" .
Yet it can only be one thing. To regard it as "only symbolic" if it is "real presence" is profanity itself. So how does "non denominational" address the profound differences in theology on a very wide range of issues?



So is nondenominational the way to go? I think so. I was reading this today about how things are going in the US: http://endtimeheadlines.org/2015/04/8-reasons-christians-are-leaving-denominational-churches/

We need more nondenominational churches here in the UK, currently we don't have one in my city if we did and it was a good one I would probably attend. This link covers eight reasons why nondenominational churches are more popular in the US but I think the top reason is doctrine, denominations are usually infected with the doctrine of man which is often in conflict with God's word and the older the denomination the more of man has crept into it IMO - the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches being prime examples here in the UK.

Those of you from from the US and Canada might like to add what is going on in their most established denominations, this would be of interest to me and perhaps others not familiar with what is going on the other side of the Atlantic! From what I read here and on facebook it would seem that the biggest step away from God and His word is the acceptance of homosexuality with some even willing to perform same sex "marriages" in the US.

Here in Britain it's all about "bums on pews" with established churches adopting the mindset of liberalism "pulling 'em in", the idea that if the Bible is too unpalatable then "soften" it to apply to today's liberal-thinking culture. In fact the opposite being the truth, this idea is simply not working. Strong Bible-believing churches are the ones flourishing here.

I have covered just one topic of debate here on this thread but the link covers eight reasons why nondenominational is the way to go. All comments posted below whether in agreement or not would be appreciated. God bless.
 
D

didymos

Guest
#62
But what does non denominational mean in practice?
Does anything go in interpretation?...
Apparently they don't do "interpretation," they just put "Jesus first."

(as if I DON't and instead worship satan or something) :rolleyes:
 
M

mikeuk

Guest
#63
Apparently they don't do "interpretation," they just put "Jesus first."

(as if I DON't and instead worship satan or something) :rolleyes:
Which as a rallying cry is good, but it masks real problems in what you actually do as to be christian, in respect of baptism, eucharist and the rest.
 
D

didymos

Guest
#64
Which as a rallying cry is good, but it masks real problems in what you actually do as to be christian, in respect of baptism, eucharist and the rest.
It's more than a "rallying cry," it is and should be the guiding principle of ANY christian (1 Cor 2:2),
but I agree with you on the rest.
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#65
Hmm, I haven't yet experienced the "adapting Christianity to the secular world" in the UK, but then I've only been here for about two years. I attend a few different churches on a regular basis and enjoy the variety. I think it gets silly when people only want to "hang with" their own denomination. The saddest thing I see is a huge church with barely enough people to fill one pew :/
maybe we should get together and chase them all into one building?
 
D

didymos

Guest
#66
QUOTE=wwjd_kilden;2031233] The saddest thing I see is a huge church with barely enough people to fill one pew :/
maybe we should get together and chase them all into one building?[/QUOTE]

Uhm... no? :eek:



The building doesn't matter, it's not our duty to fill it (Matthew 18:20)
Besides... who needs a "huge church" to be a christian anyway?

 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
0
#67
Broken record here! 1Cor. 12 and 14, Romans 12. Ephesians 4. Beautiful pictures of the assembly. Sitting at home still waiting for others to 'discern the body of of Christ.'
Hopefully the government will yank the 501c3 exemptions. This would help in getting rid of the buildings, 'not one stone left on another' and make it necessary to meet in homes. And make that one guy get off his caboose and go get a real job. Acts 20.
The small numbers would make it conducive for an every member participation assembly as the word commands.
Then we can kick our selfs in regret for not aligning with His word sooner. What a blessing if this would only transpire. All the saints being used by the Blessed Holy Spirit, with Jesus as Head. Ministering ' 2 or 3 at a time everything decently and in order.'
Then and only then can we 'turn the world upside down for Christ.'
As it stands now, the 'world' has turned the ekklesia upside down for the enemy!
Upside (pride) down (humility). Servanthood folks, not masterhood.

Diotrephes must be be exposed for who he is, what he did and how the ekklesia is tainted with this spirit.

Non denomination, inter denomination, they're all cut from the same cloth. Anti scripture gatherings.
 
M

mikeuk

Guest
#68
QUOTE=wwjd_kilden;2031233] The saddest thing I see is a huge church with barely enough people to fill one pew :/
maybe we should get together and chase them all into one building?
I am not sure "popularity" is a good metric, the bars full of those with loose morality are full on every friday and saturday as well.

Contraception, abortion, gay clergy , remarriage of divorcees and so on, are all "popular" stances and the reason many choose a congregration. It does not make Pro choice congregations Christian choices.

But I can only say lunchtime mass at my local is half full even of a weekday lunchtime, because christian worship is a 7 day kind of a thing, rather than just listenting to a rock band on Sunday, which I am sure is popular, it just is not worship!
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#69
Uhm... no? :eek:



The building doesn't matter, it's not our duty to fill it (Matthew 18:20)
Besides... who needs a "huge church" to be a christian anyway?


Now you are twisting my words. Uniting Christians is NOT the same as making one world religion
 
M

mikeuk

Guest
#70
I was hoping for an answer to a serious question.

How does a non denominational church function?

With all the differenc interpretations on (for example) baptism and eucharist, do they avoid such things entirely? And in avoiding them can they claim to be Christian?

How can such churches accomodate such polarised views?
 
M

Miri

Guest
#71
Hi just to qualify some of my previous comments, when I mentioned different churches coming together I meant bible believing churches. There is no ecumenicalism incorporating Christians, muslims, Hindus etc.

In respect of the Catholic Church, I honestly believe there are bible believing born again Christians in the Catholic Church. But I know also that there are many who follow a man made religion of tradition and don't think about the things they are
taught. Worse still some regard themselves as Catholics because their parents are Catholic but they never attend church, read the bible or have any semblance of a belief system. But the latter part can also apply to Christians.

I think a big obstickle for some Catholics (not all as I know some Catholics who no longer believe in this), is the praying to Mary and a belief in purgatory which are both unbiblical and deceptive and unfortunately prevent direct accountability to God in the mind of many.

But as I say, I also know there are genuine Christians within the Catholic Church. There has been a definite spiritual shift in
many churches in my city including the Catholic Church - praise God for that.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#72
What I've known in life are churches of various denominations that are good. Some non-denominational churches are great, as well as denominational. The measure of a church is whether it is a Bible believing church, with Jesus Christ always front and center, His whole gospel, and not rituals, not men, not buildings, not psychobabble or cult, divisive weirdness that really only serves to give a so-called "church" product exclusiveness. Spirit-filled and true to the word of God in Holy Scripture, or not, is the bottom line issue.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#73
Broken record here! 1Cor. 12 and 14, Romans 12. Ephesians 4. Beautiful pictures of the assembly. Sitting at home still waiting for others to 'discern the body of of Christ.'
Hopefully the government will yank the 501c3 exemptions. This would help in getting rid of the buildings, 'not one stone left on another' and make it necessary to meet in homes. And make that one guy get off his caboose and go get a real job. Acts 20.
The small numbers would make it conducive for an every member participation assembly as the word commands.
Then we can kick our selfs in regret for not aligning with His word sooner. What a blessing if this would only transpire. All the saints being used by the Blessed Holy Spirit, with Jesus as Head. Ministering ' 2 or 3 at a time everything decently and in order.'
Then and only then can we 'turn the world upside down for Christ.'
As it stands now, the 'world' has turned the ekklesia upside down for the enemy!
Upside (pride) down (humility). Servanthood folks, not masterhood.

Diotrephes must be be exposed for who he is, what he did and how the ekklesia is tainted with this spirit.

Non denomination, inter denomination, they're all cut from the same cloth. Anti scripture gatherings.
Really? Skip church buildings and have church in our homes? It must be nice to live in homes that big. Did you see that little church in didymos' post? (I think I know that church. They have a wider rowhome than mine and are up on Broad St. lol) That's roughly the size of my living room. Actually it's a bit wider and longer than my living room, before you take into account we have stairs. And let's just skip furniture altogether.

When we first moved in, we invited my dad, sister, and youngest brother over for dinner. Big mistake! Not enough room for that many people. (Just hubby and me here.) We literally had to scootchy around each other to go to the bathroom or kitchen. We live in a rowhome in Philly. Double that space in didymos' photo, and more space than we have for our living room, dining room (now converted into hubby's computer space), and kitchen. This is a middle-class neighborhood. There are 25 houses on our side of the block alone. Welcome to my neighborhood. (The tag isn't on my house, that's the corner of my block.)

And, I'm on the chair, because I cannot work. Well, I might have been able to do one thing to make money, but frankly that's illegal, immoral, and downright against everything God stands for. (If not all that, well, ewwww! Too disgusting for me to stomach.) So, guess what? You are supposed to take care of those who cannot work.

So, speaking of pride, how about dumping yours, instead of assuming your way is God's way.
 
D

didymos

Guest
#74
Now you are twisting my words. Uniting Christians is NOT the same as making one world religion
You're proposing to FORCE them into one church though, that's exactly what the RCC wants. The next step towards one world religion is easy to make then.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#75
Hi just to qualify some of my previous comments, when I mentioned different churches coming together I meant bible believing churches. There is no ecumenicalism incorporating Christians, muslims, Hindus etc.

In respect of the Catholic Church, I honestly believe there are bible believing born again Christians in the Catholic Church. But I know also that there are many who follow a man made religion of tradition and don't think about the things they are
taught. Worse still some regard themselves as Catholics because their parents are Catholic but they never attend church, read the bible or have any semblance of a belief system. But the latter part can also apply to Christians.

I think a big obstickle for some Catholics (not all as I know some Catholics who no longer believe in this), is the praying to Mary and a belief in purgatory which are both unbiblical and deceptive and unfortunately prevent direct accountability to God in the mind of many.

But as I say, I also know there are genuine Christians within the Catholic Church. There has been a definite spiritual shift in
many churches in my city including the Catholic Church - praise God for that.
I've also seen this. Despite the claim of Catholicism of being some universal, united body, there are those who stick to Christ like a Bible believing Protestant to whackjobs on a grand scale of Mariolatry, those who name Catholicism, but don't believe in Papal infallibility, etc. The issue is what we do with Jesus Christ, and what then Jesus Christ does with us, by the Holy Spirit. What was that old ad, "Got milk?" Well, "Got born again?"
 
D

didymos

Guest
#76
Really? Skip church buildings and have church in our homes?...
The people in my picture didn't "skip church buildings," that room is their FIRST church, the church of a new, small congregation of christians in China. Remember that's how the churches started to begin with, in people's homes. If that's the perspective for some congregations (to return to their "original state") sobeit.
 
M

mikeuk

Guest
#77
It is interesting that as someone who spent years as a protestant then in some evangelical sects, finally becoming a catholic, I do not recognise the caricature of it by those outside it, who do not seem to know either what it is or what it stands for.

What catholics believe is there in the catechism for all to see.
If you don't subscribe to it, you are not a catholic, and you know where the door is, it is not locked.
For sure there are a lot of badly catechised cradle catholics who do some strange things. But they do not speak for catholicsim when they do.

The catholic mass says it all. It is wall to wall scripture, with several readings in each mass, farmore than in any evangelical or protestant sect I ever belonged to. There are 100 mentions of Jesus, God, Lamb, Spirit, but only two of mary and the saints in the context of "pray for us". Bible reading has always been encouraged, as numerous popes have urged, whether the message gets through or not, is something else.

The reality is scripture and asking for guidance from the spirit is provably not enough, as the massive profound differences between an enormous number of protestant denominations prove.

As for tradition , please understand it. The word paradosis "tradition" means handing down, which is how the faith was transmitted in the early years. Jesus gave us apostles, not a book to hand the faith on. So as Paul says "hold true to tradition taught to you by word of mouth and letter" is simply reflective of how the faith was handed on before the new testament became an accepted book, and evidence that the gospels were not yet in circulation then.

On the other hand go back to the early church fathers, you can see what the apostles handed down. Irenaus only a century on who knew and was taught by Polcarp who was, a student of John the apostle.

He writes for example of bishops, or those they entrust to perform valid baptism and eucharist.

"Do ye all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ doth the Father; and follow the presbyters as the apostles; and have respect unto the deacons as unto the commandment of God. Let no one, apart from the bishop, do any of the things that appertain unto the church. Let that eucharist alone be considered valid which is celebrated in the presence of the bishop, or of him to whom he shall have entrusted it. 8:2 Wherever the bishop appear, there let the multitude be; even as wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful either to baptize, or to hold a love-feast without the consent of the bishop; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that also is well pleasing unto God, to the end that whatever is done may be safe and sure. "


Elsewhere he says of the real presence

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes"

And so on.
History and tradition are needed to understand how the early church performed, and what scripture means as opposed to what it says.
 
M

MadParrotWoman

Guest
#78
I dont really get the whole denomination thing.

I currently attend a Pentecostal church but I do not consider that I belong to a Pentecostal denomination.

I have friends who attend other churches I visit their's from time to time and they visit mine. Never once have I heard
people affiliate themselves with any one denomination only. This includes baptist, evangelical, Church of England (which has a very broad spectrum of churches ranging from the very traditional to the modern).

I know several pastors some as friends, who have preached in different churches without encountering the denomination
effect. I really don't get it at all.

The only "denomination which seems to stand alone is the Catholic Church, at least in my experience.

Maybe the denominational effect is felt more in other parts of the UK, I don't know. Maybe in my city it has been cancelled out
as many of the different churches work together.

One thing I do know is that in the next life there won't be a corner for baptists, a corner for Anglicans, a corner for Pentecostals etc. We will all worship the lamb together! Maybe we need to practice this more in this life.
Same but I would consider attending a nondenom if I could find one if only to "taste" it.

Roman Catholics consider themselves RC rather than Christian. I have heard Anglicans speak in similar terms like they are somehow superior to evangelical; one such quote I heard "Our church (Anglican) is as near as you can get to RC without it actually being so." Now this was a bragging right not simply a statement.

It seems to me that many established church denominations such as Anglican and Methodist are pretty liberal in comparison to my church. My OP was stating that these aren't the kind of churches flourishing in the UK -and that this could be because they are straying further from God's word in order to appease the masses which doesn't seem to be working. Maybe nondenoms are the answer?
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#79
Same but I would consider attending a nondenom if I could find one if only to "taste" it.

Roman Catholics consider themselves RC rather than Christian. I have heard Anglicans speak in similar terms like they are somehow superior to evangelical; one such quote I heard "Our church (Anglican) is as near as you can get to RC without it actually being so." Now this was a bragging right not simply a statement.

It seems to me that many established church denominations such as Anglican and Methodist are pretty liberal in comparison to my church. My OP was stating that these aren't the kind of churches flourishing in the UK -and that this could be because they are straying further from God's word in order to appease the masses which doesn't seem to be working. Maybe nondenoms are the answer?
I can only say I do not. Christian first, RC second which is also the timeline, having started Anglican, then evangelical.

I left evangelical because they seemed to fudge too many issues on theology..

But I suspect the lack of growth in Anglicanism is the lack of unity - nobody knows what it believes any more, after endless divisions over gay , female clergy, sacramentals from nearly catholic to anything but.

As any good marketer will tell you, by trying to be everything to everyone, they cease to be anything for anyone. They lost the identity.

But MadParrot, I am really genuinely interested.
How do such as baptism and eucharist work in a non dom, considering the wide spectrum of views on them? How do they cope with the range of theology?
 
M

MadParrotWoman

Guest
#80
I can only say I do not. Christian first, RC second which is also the timeline, having started Anglican, then evangelical.

I left evangelical because they seemed to fudge too many issues on theology..

But I suspect the lack of growth in Anglicanism is the lack of unity - nobody knows what it believes any more, after endless divisions over gay , female clergy, sacramentals from nearly catholic to anything but.

As any good marketer will tell you, by trying to be everything to everyone, they cease to be anything for anyone. They lost the identity.

But MadParrot, I am really genuinely interested.
How do such as baptism and eucharist work in a non dom, considering the wide spectrum of views on them? How do they cope with the range of theology?
The short answer to this is I don't know which is why I said I would consider attending one to "test the waters". I'm sure there are good and bad nondenoms but I admit I do like the idea of them.