When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Cor 15: [SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep... But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end... FINI, End of story, the end. Then comes the end, not then comes the Tribulation, then another resurrection.

1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. NOT RESURRECTIONS as in Plural. Resurrection - Singular.

2 Tim 1:18: who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Again, singular resurrection.

John 5:29: and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Again, one resurrections, not one before the trib and another one after it.

Luke 14:14: And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” Again, one resurrection for the just. If that one resurrection was before the Trib then all those Christians who die during the Trib will not live again.

 

[PlainWord]

I am saying,if the ac shows up for a month,a week or a day BEFORE the rapture,your dad was right.
IOW,under the above scenario it is still a pretrib rapture

Define the Trib? Is the AC at work during the Trib or not?

 

[GaryA]

If those beheaded,and ONLY those beheaded are the first resurrection,then using the same method of omission,none of the dead in christ of 1st thes 4 are part of the 1st resurrection.

It is a moot point to the question.

( any straight and simple answers? -- like, "yes" / "no" or "I agree" / "I disagree" )

I did not say:

"Hey - let us run rabbits on all of the possible permutations..."


EDIT: As a point of the question -- I am not interested in any 'ONLY' scenarios...


What I asked:

Revelation 20:

[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Is there anyone who is not in agreement with the conclusion that this passage indicates that the 'first resurrection' includes those who "were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"...???

So - the question is --- do you agree or disagree that the 'first resurrection' includes those who...???

 

[popeye]

There are only two resurrections.

1) Christ
2) Everyone else. Some to life, some to the second death

1) Jesus WITH THE PATRIARCHS FROM PARADISE
2)the dead in christ 1 thes 4
3)those left behind and beheaded
4) the 2 witnesses
5)Rev 20 ,in your mind defines the timing of the 1st resurrection.When in reality it honors those beheaded by the ac.

1st resurrection is ALL THOSE PRECEEDING THE 2nd,which is several events as opposed to your made up (one and only event)

 

[PlainWord]

The Great Tribulation is an period of unimaginable Satan influence of evil where much of the world will turn against Jews and Christians to the point where we are slaughtered and almost completely wiped out. For some, this has already started. Many lukewarm Christians will just stop going to church. Others will remain firm and are killed.

In the USA alone, 3,500 church shut down each year. In Europe, few true Christian churches are left. Many have been taken over and turned into Mosques. In the USA, many churches no longer preach the gospel and instead they are "feel good" churches where the pastors are filthy rich and the preach many 1-2 verses designed to make everyone happy and encouraged. I think a lot of so-called Christians are living secular lives the whole week and just come to church to feel good about themselves.

The real heroes of our Christian faith are those in Iraq and Syria, N. Korea, China and other places where they are laying down their lives rather than to denounce their faith. I wonder how many in the US would be willing to do so if it became a life or death choice for them?

We may soon find out. Just look at what a judge in NYC allowed to stand. Killing Jews is now considered free speech and acceptable.

‘Killing Jews is Worship’ Ad Allowed on NYC Transportation Services ~ News Forage

Soon it will be fine to kill Christians too. It's just a matter of time.

 

[popeye]

It is a moot point to the question.

( any straight and simple answers? -- like, "yes" / "no" or "I agree" / "I disagree" )

I did not say:

"Hey - let us run rabbits on all of the possible permutations..."


EDIT: As a point of the question -- I am not interested in any 'ONLY' scenarios...


What I asked:

Revelation 20:

[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Is there anyone who is not in agreement with the conclusion that this passage indicates that the 'first resurrection' includes those who "were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"...???

So - the question is --- do you agree or disagree that the 'first resurrection' includes those who...???

......yep......i do

 

[PlainWord]

1) Jesus WITH THE PATRIARCHS FROM PARADISE
2)the dead in christ 1 thes 4
3)those left behind and beheaded
4) the 2 witnesses
5)Rev 20 ,in your mind defines the timing of the 1st resurrection.When in reality it honors those beheaded by the ac.

1st resurrection is ALL THOSE PRECEEDING THE 2nd,which is several events as opposed to your made up (one and only event)

I didn't make up anything. I provided 5 passage that speak of one future resurrection. You provide ZERO passages that speak of multiple future resurrections. There are not multiple future resurrections. The righteous do not face the second death which is spiritual death, the wicked face the second death. Gary's correct. Those who are beheaded are given special recognition but they are part of the one and only future resurrection of the righteous.

The two witnesses as I've shown repeatedly represent the Church and Israel. They are resurrected and taken to heaven for instructions by God before returning soon after with God. Paul teaches that the living will not precede the dead in Christ meaning the dead in Christ go first.

 

[PlainWord]

So - the question is --- do you agree or disagree that the 'first resurrection' includes those who...???

Gary, Technically the first resurrection is just Christ.

We are told that Christ, and only Christ, is the firstfruits of the dead.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Then we are told the order is Christ, then everyone else.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

So it's Christ which obviously has already happened, then it's everyone else. The fact that the beheaded from the Tribulation are mentioned only further proves that the resurrection cannot be given a pre-trib timing since those beheaded Saints were beheaded during the Tribulation. Thus, the Resurrection happens after the Tribulation and since we are told above that the resurrection happens at Christ's coming, Christ coming can only be after they were beheaded, as in AFTER the Great Trib. Do you agree?

 

[GaryA]

I have to shut it down for the night --- more later...

"Good Night..."

 

[PlainWord]

I have to shut it down for the night --- more later...

"Good Night..."

Me too. Good night Gary. Good night Popeye. Good night Jim Bob. Good night Mary Ellen...

 

[sltaylor]

Ok four scriptures will answer that and tie this together. We are transformed at the Last trumpet. There are seven Trumpets in revelation, and something amazing happens at that trumpet, the mystery of God is accomplished. For the mystery to be accomplished, something has to be revealed. And we all have something inside us just waiting to be transformed. So here we go.

Remember four verses they all compliment each other.

#1: Galatians 4:26*But the Jerusalem that is above*is free, and she is our mother.*27*For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."*
Remember this verse is quoting from Isaiah 54 and the headline of that whole Chapter is 'The future Glory of Zion'. Remember that name Zion, it is very important for this next verse.

Isaiah 66:7*"Before she goes into labor,*she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.*8*Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day*or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is ZION is in labor than she gives birth to her children.*
This is very important, for as Paul said the Jerusalem above is our mother, and quotes from Isaiah 54 and his prophecy to the e future Glory of Zion. this verse from Isaiah prophesies, that the very same ZION gives birth to her children....and remember, Paul says she is our mother. So how is she our mother???

Galatians 4:29*"At that time the son born in the ordinary way*persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit."
This is very important because it explains who the Jerusalem that is above, (ZION), it explains how those children are born, and that's by the spirit. And spirit gives birth to spirit, meaning born agaian! The Jerusalem that is above is our mother and her children are Abraham's seed, born again, by the power of the spirit.

Like I said, the last trumpet......something amazing happens right after it, and this is the key verse.

Revelation 12:1*A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven:*a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars*on her head.*2*She was pregnant and cried out in pain*as she was about to give birth", "She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.*And her child was snatched up*to God and to his throne."
That phrase snatched up, literally means raptured.

There is no other woman prophesied to give birth, than our heavenly mother mentioned by Isaiah and Paul. For they are the same. And as Paul says, she is our mother.

Do not be confused by the singular term mentioned in Rev 12 for son, it says the same thing in Isaiah 66, but then calls it a nation and country, and remember, she is our mother.

 

[PlainWord]

Ok four scriptures will answer that and tie this together. We are transformed at the Last trumpet. There are seven Trumpets in revelation, and something amazing happens at that trumpet, the mystery of God is accomplished. For the mystery to be accomplished, something has to be revealed. And we all have something inside us just waiting to be transformed. So here we go.

Remember four verses they all compliment each other.

#1: Galatians 4:26*But the Jerusalem that is above*is free, and she is our mother.*27*For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."*
Remember this verse is quoting from Isaiah 54 and the headline of that whole Chapter is 'The future Glory of Zion'. Remember that name Zion, it is very important for this next verse.

Isaiah 66:7*"Before she goes into labor,*she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.*8*Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day*or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is ZION is in labor than she gives birth to her children.*
This is very important, for as Paul said the Jerusalem above is our mother, and quotes from Isaiah 54 and his prophecy to the e future Glory of Zion. this verse from Isaiah prophesies, that the very same ZION gives birth to her children....and remember, Paul says she is our mother. So how is she our mother???

Galatians 4:29*"At that time the son born in the ordinary way*persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit."
This is very important because it explains who the Jerusalem that is above, (ZION), it explains how those children are born, and that's by the spirit. And spirit gives birth to spirit, meaning born agaian! The Jerusalem that is above is our mother and her children are Abraham's seed, born again, by the power of the spirit.

Like I said, the last trumpet......something amazing happens right after it, and this is the key verse.

Revelation 12:1*A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven:*a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars*on her head.*2*She was pregnant and cried out in pain*as she was about to give birth", "She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.*And her child was snatched up*to God and to his throne."
That phrase snatched up, literally means raptured.

There is no other woman prophesied to give birth, than our heavenly mother mentioned by Isaiah and Paul. For they are the same. And as Paul says, she is our mother.

Do not be confused by the singular term mentioned in Rev 12 for son, it says the same thing in Isaiah 66, but then calls it a nation and country, and remember, she is our mother.

Rev 12 was discussing the birth of Christ. It is Christ who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron. It is Christ who was snatched up to God and His throne.

The signs that appeared in heaven:

...a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars*on her head...

They literally happened when Christ was born. That's how the Magi knew to go to Bethlehem. The Constellation Virgo (which means VIRGIN) appears with the sun in the morning sky. Below her, the 12 Stars of Orion and a full moon became visible at the feet of Virgo when Christ was born. I have a DVD called, "The Star of Bethlehem" which uses software to put the stars back in time and illustrates this beautifully. I highly recommend this video to any Christian.

Bottom line, Rev 12 does not describe the Rapture of the Church. The Rapture is discussed in Rev 14 with the harvest which ties to Mat 13. Israel is the Woman and the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes and she was pregnant with Christ.

 

[PlainWord]

I have to shut it down for the night --- more later...

"Good Night..."

Gary,

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power...

The first resurrection is for believers - all believers. Believers are resurrected to everlasting life, thus the second death has no power.

 

[popeye]

Gary,

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power...

The first resurrection is for believers - all believers. Believers are resurrected to everlasting life, thus the second death has no power.

Harvest has 4 parts (leviticus)

1st firstfruits (Jesus and those in paradise)
2nd main harvest (The living and the dead 1 thes 4)
3rd corners (Those left behind)
4th gleaners (stragglers,Jews christians hiding and found.....martyred.......possibly the 144k)


That is just the way it is pw. Your clumping into one is NOT biblical

 

[popeye]

I didn't make up anything. I provided 5 passage that speak of one future resurrection. You provide ZERO passages that speak of multiple future resurrections. There are not multiple future resurrections. The righteous do not face the second death which is spiritual death, the wicked face the second death. Gary's correct. Those who are beheaded are given special recognition but they are part of the one and only future resurrection of the righteous.

The two witnesses as I've shown repeatedly represent the Church and Israel. They are resurrected and taken to heaven for instructions by God before returning soon after with God. Paul teaches that the living will not precede the dead in Christ meaning the dead in Christ go first.

Getting creative are we ? Church and israel? You made that up son

 

[valiant]

Revelation 20:

[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Is there anyone who is not in agreement with the conclusion that this passage indicates that the 'first resurrection' includes those who "were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"...???

Yes, the first resurrection is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. As Acts26.23 says, 'by being the first to rise from the dead.

All who are Christian have already taken part on that first resurrection:

'He made us alive together with Christ --- and raised us up and made us sit together with HIM in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.' (eph 2.5-6) We have had a part in the first resurrection.

'I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded -- and of all who had not received the mark of the beast -- and they lived and reigned with Christ.' (John 20.4-5). They too have had a part in the first resurrection.

We are ALL awaiting the coming of Christ and the final resurrection.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Just thought I'd stop by and offer services. You post-trib guys, let me know when you've twisted all that scripture dough into enough pretzels, or if you just reach a point of fatigue from all the confusion, and we'll get your work in the oven.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

The Great Tribulation is an period of unimaginable Satan influence of evil where much of the world will turn against Jews and Christians to the point where we are slaughtered and almost completely wiped out. For some, this has already started. Many lukewarm Christians will just stop going to church. Others will remain firm and are killed.

In the USA alone, 3,500 church shut down each year. In Europe, few true Christian churches are left. Many have been taken over and turned into Mosques. In the USA, many churches no longer preach the gospel and instead they are "feel good" churches where the pastors are filthy rich and the preach many 1-2 verses designed to make everyone happy and encouraged. I think a lot of so-called Christians are living secular lives the whole week and just come to church to feel good about themselves.

The real heroes of our Christian faith are those in Iraq and Syria, N. Korea, China and other places where they are laying down their lives rather than to denounce their faith. I wonder how many in the US would be willing to do so if it became a life or death choice for them?

We may soon find out. Just look at what a judge in NYC allowed to stand. Killing Jews is now considered free speech and acceptable.

‘Killing Jews is Worship’ Ad Allowed on NYC Transportation Services ~ News Forage

Soon it will be fine to kill Christians too. It's just a matter of time.

The Great Tribulation is God's Wrath and satan's wrath, as he is cast down and inhabits the man of sin, by that time the Great Whore, the false church, will have 'medicated' many into that 'false image of Christ', (sorcery-witchcraft-behavior control medication-pharmakus) the image of man, Idolatry at its heighest height! ..... plus it was upon the Wings of the Great Whore and its APOSTASY, the man of sin will have ROSE to power. The False Church, the Whore, she will have presented the gentiles/ and fleshly Israel , those who are left here during the Hour of Trial, to try them that dwell upon the earth , a man made gospel and kingdom, man building his/her own EDEN on the planet, a Laodicean church of global apostate proportion........ without Heaven Returning as Foretold! This the LIE that those whose Names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, will take and run with... thing is .. when the Great Tribulation starts, the Man of Sin, will burn and devour the Whore, that sandy foundation AND ITS occupants, this spiritual whore......he rode on to power, thru peace. The false gospel, he heralded, and taught and preached and lifted up, and used False signs and wonders to get people to Believe will be no more.Upon the Abomination of the Desolation, and after it takes place, he will require worship and servitude to his kingdom, utopia, Eden.... his servitude mark will be a tattoo, received in the forehead or right hand. A very simple answer to the issues of global commerce... indeed.. The Blood bath during this time, upon mankind because of the Judgment of God and the wrath of the devil, for he knows his time is short, will make any World War, look purdy petty in numbers and blood shed... the tRue Fruit of the devil, and those who will follow him to perdition, murder. the Line of Cain, who was of the Wicked one.. indeed!

 

[crossnote]

Two years, two months and 92 pages later ..still hasn't happened. ..maybe on the next page?

 

[sltaylor]

Rev 12 was discussing the birth of Christ. It is Christ who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron. It is Christ who was snatched up to God and His throne.

The signs that appeared in heaven:

...a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars*on her head...

They literally happened when Christ was born. That's how the Magi knew to go to Bethlehem. The Constellation Virgo (which means VIRGIN) appears with the sun in the morning sky. Below her, the 12 Stars of Orion and a full moon became visible at the feet of Virgo when Christ was born. I have a DVD called, "The Star of Bethlehem" which uses software to put the stars back in time and illustrates this beautifully. I highly recommend this video to any Christian.

Bottom line, Rev 12 does not describe the Rapture of the Church. The Rapture is discussed in Rev 14 with the harvest which ties to Mat 13. Israel is the Woman and the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes and she was pregnant with Christ.

How many times is Christ born again?? This is right after the last trumpet, This is the BODY of Christ man!! Like all of us in that body.
Isaiah 66 uses the same word son, but then calls that son a nation and country. The body of Christ is that son sir, and the nation and country as well as Peter said, you are a chosen people, A HOLY NATION, AND WE ARE ALL 1 IN CHRIST.
And Galatians 4 says that woman, represents the Jerusalem that IS ABOVE AND SHE IS OUR MOTHER.