TRUE BAPTISM

SeaBass · Apr 30, 2015

The thief was not under Christ's NT law, Heb 9:16,17 therefore not accountable to Mk 16;16; Acts 2:38 and is not an example of NT salvation.

NT belief requires one to "believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" Rom 10:9.

The thief could not have the belief the NT requires for Christ had not yet died much less been raised from the dead.

Also, NT baptism is where those "baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death" Rom 6:3.

The thief could not have the baptism the NT requires for Christ had not yet died for the thief to be baptized into Christ's death.

Jon4TheCross · Apr 30, 2015

So...
How many here have followed Christ into the woods?

How many here have even followed paul by not eating or drinking for 3 days?

How many here have truly taken up the cross and followed Him?

I can tell by the posts...not many at all

endtimes · Apr 30, 2015

Preacher said:

Lets have a look...

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP] into his death?

Thayer's Greek Definitions:

G907
baptizō

Thayer Definition:
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe

Now Lets see where else this is used:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP] every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

John the Baptist came preaching water baptism. And, Jesus Himself got water baptized...

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP], went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

It is a sorry day when folks deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the Death, Burial, Resurrection. And, since the Burial is Water Baptism - those that deny it, have also denied the Gospel.

This, most assuredly is a wet passage.

God bless!

seed_time_harvest · Apr 30, 2015

SeaBass said:

A person would have to find a way to say that he was not saved because if they said he was saved without being baptized in water it would break down all that you said.

John 3:16
king james version(kjv)

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

SeaBass · Apr 30, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

I am positive the thief was saved for Jesus told him this day he would be in paradise.

What I do not agree with are those that claim to be saved just as the thief when the thief is not an example of NT salvation.

Jeff_56 · Apr 30, 2015

SeaBass said:

footnote to check. remember that jesus himself did not go to paradise the same day.

punctuation makes a lot of difference. as in "today i tell you, you will be with me in paradise" vs
"today i tell you you will be with me in paradise" ....

and context with the rest of Scripture..... it all indicates he will be with him in paradise, some day in the future.

Word_Swordsman · Apr 30, 2015

SeaBass said:

It looks like it will be necessary to deal with that post point art a time. The above response is deplorable enough.

Let's first look at real scripture, not your "Bible" verses that combine commentary with scripture. I am amazed at that! Why?

John 4:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

What Bible version did you get "Jesus did baptize, not anyone personally but water baptized by giving His authority to the disciples to water baptize." from? I believe you substituted someone's commentary. The Greek "exousia" is not used in verse 2!

Jesus' disciples. How many started off under John's ministry? We know for sure John and Andrew first followed John the baptist. After John was beheaded, what happened to his disciples?

They were taught John's baptism unto repentance. Jesus is not on record preaching water baptism unto salvation. He preached "Repent, believe the gospel", not once teaching them it is water baptism that saves. Emphasizing repentance from the beginning, it was proper for Jesus' disciples to keep promoting water baptism unto repentance. Repentance is not salvation. It is prerequisite to believing his gospel, believing in his death, and believing in his resurrection, for salvation by his blood for the cancellation of our sin record.

With his disciples present, at least John and Andrew having been water baptized by John already, we find this of the baptism Jesus offers:
Matthew 20:20-28 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.

(Those two disciples being John and James)

[SUP]21 [/SUP] And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

There's a clue identifying what baptism Jesus had in store for his disciples. None of that matches up with John's baptism unto repentance. Keep in mind John's message of what baptism Jesus would baptize people with: Luke 3:15-17 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

God gave John that message. John and other men of the seed of Adam could not save anyone, but could preach repentance of sin. Christians can bring people to Jesus so they can believe on Jesus and be saved. Nobody is saved by the hand of any mortal man. Water baptism is a token of what Jesus performs in the saved, like circumcision is a sign of the old abolished covenant of Moses. It is a sign like the ark Noah built was in relation to the flood waters. The water didn't save Noah and family. The ark did. Water baptism is a figure. 1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The English "figure" was translated from the Greek "antitypos" ([FONT=&quot]ἀντίτυπος[/FONT]), which can only be defined as a corespondent form, like the inked impression left from a rubber stamp. Look at the actual stamp it is the opposite of the ink image, yet copies the real. When you make a copy of an embossed legal document, the copy is not equal to the original. It can be evidence the original existed. So, water baptism can't be the agent of salvation, but is a "type of" salvation in Christ. It is also the answer of a good conscience before God. One must be saved to possess that, then and only then answering God with obedience.

seed_time_harvest · Apr 30, 2015

SeaBass said:

I don't understand because John 3:16 is new testament and GOD inspired John to write "whosoever believeth"
Whether it's new testament or old testament it's still about faith.

Jeff_56 · Apr 30, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

very good! that's very true. as "without faith it is impossible to please God"

also inspired: 1 Jn 3:10 "...whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God...."

and "even the demons believe" (but ..... do demons please God ? ) (oh, also, do demons do righteousness --- they BELIEVE!)

so? there's a lot of blanks to fill in. "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God"... not just some.

SeaBass · Apr 30, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

Jn 3:16 is NT but the NT did not come into effect until some time AFTER the death of Christ:

Heb 9:16,17:For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

So the NT could not come into force until some time AFTER Christ, the Testator of the NT, died.

Word_Swordsman · Apr 30, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

Look at what Jesus said a few verses up to understand what he meant by "believing".

John 3:11-15 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

So next Jesus will tell something earthly to explain the spiritual.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

He's telling Nicodemus (a Pharisee) he's qualified to do that, the only person ever to be in heaven, able to come here from heaven. Right there Jesus was claiming deity.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Jesus next brings up an event the Pharisee would understand perfectly, likened to an earthly thing to explain the spiritual. That's in Numbers 21:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Anyone that was bitten, surely to die quickly, that looked only to God's provision for rescue, would be healed. In the same pattern is the spiritual matter of what Jesus did on the cross, in the grave, and in his resurrection. Anyone putting their trust in Jesus like that will benefit from
[SUP]15 [/SUP] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

No demon would trust Jesus for salvation. Of course they believe Jesus existed, knew who he was both naturally and spiritually. Had they known God's plan of the cross, they would have left Jesus alone. Thousands of Jews knew about Jesus, as well as probably every member of the Levites, certainly the priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, all that had power in Israel, and even some Samaritans, and kings, and Romans, ...... Just knowing Jesus existed didn't save anyone. They had to completely trust him for eternal life, or suffer eternal condemnation.

It's the same for each of us.

SeaBass · Apr 30, 2015

Word_Swordsman said:

Jn 4:1 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,"
Jn 4:2 "(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"

Verse 1 clearly says Jesus baptized, yet verse 2 says Jesus baptized not. On the surface, that's a contradiction yet the bible does not contradict itself. How do YOU work out this seemingly contradiction?

As I showed it's not a contradiction for Jesus baptized by giving His disciples the authority to baptize in His name per the great commission, Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16; Lk 24:47. So Jesus baptized by delegating His authority not baptized anyone personally Himself.

Jesus, in Jn 3:5 and Mk 16:16, speaks to the necessity of water baptism.

You posted "Repentance is not salvation. It is prerequisite to believing his gospel..."

Interesting you have one repenting BEFORE believing. Why would a lost, unbelieving reprobate repent? How would he even know he needs to repent without knowing the gospel?

Words_Swordsman said:

To know the context it is important to know
-who is speaking
-who is being spoken to
-what is being said

In Mt 3:11 John is speaking to Pharisees that came to his baptism, verse 7.
We know from Lk 7"30 the Pharisees rejected John's baptism.

So why would John say to those Pharisees "I indeed baptize you with water.." when he had not baptized them with water?

This tells me John is using the pronoun "you" in a generic sense both times. John is simply announcing to those Pharisees the kind of baptism he baptized with and announcing the kinds of baptism Jesus would baptize with. John promised no one any of these baptisms. Neither pronoun "you" in the verse apply to anyone today though some try and make the second "you" apply to themselves. It cannot be learned form the context in Mt 3:11 who the "you" is that will be baptized with the Holy Ghost so we have to look to the fulfillment of John's words and they are found in Acts 1:1-5. Here Jesus is with His APOSTLES and references John's words of Mt 3:11 in Acts 1:5. In this context Jesus is promising His APOSTLES baptism with the Holy Ghost, not anyone else. So we now know the "you" in Mt 3:11 that will be baptized with the only Ghost is the APOSTLES not anyone today though some will claim it. Some will claim they are the second pronoun "you" in Mt 3;11 but can never prove it.

===============================================

you posted "The English "figure" was translated from the Greek "antitypos" (ἀντίτυπος), which can only be defined as a corespondent form, like the inked impression left from a rubber stamp"

THis is what I said with the die and the imprint. The dies is the type and the imprint left by the die is the anti-type or mirror reflection of the die. Here the rubber stamp is the die (type) and the ink imprint left by the stamp is the anti-type.

If the rubber stamp has an "A" on it then the antitype must also be a mirror reflection of that "A" it cannot be a "B".

So the type/die/rubber stamp of the OT is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "saved by water"
Then the NT antitype (imprint) must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"saved by water

The imprint (anti-type) cannot be anything but a mirror reflection of the die/rubber stamp/type.

Again, the rubber stamp (type) that has an "A" cannot leave an imprint (anti-type) of "B".
Since the OT type (rubber stamp) is Noah saved by water then the NT imprint MUST be us "saved by water" also.
You CANNOT have an imprint different from the rubber stamp and when the rubber stamp (type) is saved by water then it is for certain its imprint (anti-type) is saved by water.

Word_Swordsman · Apr 30, 2015

SeaBass said:

The gospel was preached before Jesus died, preached by Jesus, and actually throughout the Old Testament. He offered his covenant with mankind while alive, but was required by God to ratify (mediate/reconcile/dedicate) that covenant with his own blood, seeing the old covenant was ratified in the blood of animals.

Jesus fulfilled the old covenant by his own blood, and fulfilled and ratified the new covenant by that same blood. To ratify either covenant was to seal it after the covenant is made known and agreed upon. The old covenant was renewed by re-ratifying it annually, while the new was once ratified by Jesus, his death, burial and resurrection sealing it forever. That covenant was offered to Israel before Jesus died, but they declined it. It was ratified among men forever upon each person agreeing to it, accepting it by faith.

plaintalk · Jul 24, 2015

There is one baptism, just as there is one spiritual birth. (Eph. 4: 5) This spiritual birth is of two elements, “water” and “Spirit.” (John 3: 5) Yes, it is quite a novel idea that “water” means “water” and “Spirit” means “Spirit.” We are all, all the nations (Matt. 28: 19), all the world (Mark 16: 15), as many as God shall call to Himself (Acts 2: 38, 39) baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sins in water. And we are all baptized by, with or in one Spirit into one body and made to drink of the one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 13) The one unmistakable instance of the occurrence of the one baptism is Cornelius and his household. They were baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11: 16) yet they were ordered to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus. (Acts 10: 47, 48) This one baptism, with the water- Spirit connection, is foreshadowed in the Old Testament at the consecration of the priests, Aaron and his sons; they were washed with water (Ex. 29: 4), clothed with the priestly garments and then anointed with the oil of gladness which was poured out on their heads. (Ex. 29: 7) The oil of gladness foreshadowed the anointing with the Holy Spirit. In Ez. 36: 25- 27 the recipients were sprinkled clean with pure water and God’s Spirit was placed within them. Jesus, Himself, was baptized in water and then the Holy Spirit immediately descended upon Him. When we repent and are immersed in water in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, Jesus pours out the Spirit upon us richly and abundantly, not on just our heads, but totally immerses us with the Spirit. (Acts 2: 38, 39; Titus 3: 5, 6) Not only that but we are made to be partakers of the Spirit both without and within, totally exposing every aspect of our being to the work and influence of the Spirit. As we come forth from this baptismal experience, we are born of both water and the Spirit. We are new creatures in Christ, children of God. God bless.

flob · Jul 25, 2015

It's obedience
Himself, becoming obedient even unto death
Philip 2:8.

This took place when we first believed into Christ.
Upon My slaves, both men and women, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days.
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those hearing the word.

From the world, not from 'hell.'
Eight souls were brought safely through by water.
He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned.
He who believes into Him is not condemned.
He who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name
of the only begotten Son of God.

Baptism for the forgiveness of sins is because of faith, as indicated by the words 'repent and be baptized.'
Baptism itself does not wash away sin, as Peter himself, the speaker in Acts 2:38, writes in 1 Pet 3:21.
When he writes 'filth of the flesh,' Peter is not writing about physical dirt.
Rather, baptism does NOT wash away sin intrinsically.
Only blood (and the Spirit of Christ) does.
Baptism is the appeal of a good conscience unto God. Who forgives the instant we believe.
He who believes into Him is not condemned,
but he who does not believe has been condemned already.
He who does not believe shall be condemned.
A man is justified by faith.
The forgiveness of sins which baptism accomplishes in Acts 2:38 and 22:16
is forgiveness in the eyes of people. Noted in these two instances of notorious
public sinners and enemies against Christ. 2:22-23; Mt 27:20-25; Acts 22:4-7

plaintalk · Jul 25, 2015

When do we receive the Spirit? We receive the Spirit when we believe (John 7: 39), when we obey (Acts 5: 32), when we repent and are baptized (in water) in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. (Acts 2: 38, 39) So when a person through faith, obeys our Lord by repenting and being baptized for the forgiveness of sin, he is promised the Holy Spirit as a gift. This promise is normative; it is to the Jew and their children, to those that are far off (the Gentile), to as many as God shall call to Himself. That’s everyone! Are their exceptions? Yes, God in His sovereignty, delayed or altered the order of events in the case of the Samaritans and Cornelius and his household (Gentiles) to show the Jewish Christians that all people are acceptable to Him. The order of events was changed but not the substance, Cornelius was saved by the grace of God as we all are.
Was Noah saved from the world or from hell? IMO he was saved from both! By faith Noah prepared an ark for the salvation of his household (from the flood) and thereby became an heir of righteousness which is according to faith (saved from hell). In some sense Noah was saved by water and in some sense we are saved by water when our faith obeys God.
Are we forgiven of sin the instant we believe? “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. Who were born (begotten) not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1: 12, 13) When we first believe, we are not saved and we do not receive the Holy Spirit, we are begotten by God. The word of God (the seed) is implanted in our hearts. But we are given the right to become children of God by faith through baptism. “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ, have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Gal. 3: 26, 27) When we are baptized, we are immersed in both water and the Spirit. As we come forth from that baptismal experience we are born of water and Spirit, children of God.
Baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience. If this is true, then obviously baptism precedes forgiveness.
Is forgiveness in Acts 2: 38 and 22: 16, forgiveness in the eyes of the people? It grieves me that people who believe, feel that they can edit the Scriptures to fit their agenda. May God help us all to be truth seekers and not agenda keepers. Coming to Jesus must include denying ourselves and taking up our cross, death of our old self. God bless.

LT · Jul 25, 2015

Water=symbol
Symbols are important.
The power is in what the symbol represents,
but the symbol itself is not to be disregarded.

Don't fear or neglect the water.
"The water, the spirit, and the blood agree in one." - The Apostle John
One baptism. 3 symbols.

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TRUE BAPTISM

SeaBass

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Jon4TheCross

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endtimes

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seed_time_harvest

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SeaBass

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Jeff_56

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Word_Swordsman

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seed_time_harvest

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Jeff_56

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SeaBass

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Word_Swordsman

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SeaBass

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Word_Swordsman

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plaintalk

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flob

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plaintalk

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LT

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