Catholics

[mikeuk]

Why would it matter? It isn't like you'd do it.

You threw down the gauntlet saying we needed correcting?

I picked it up as in john6 " but where would we go"
And seeing 10000 choices none of which agree, some I have already left because of it, a fair question to you is so " who has the truth?" And which are preaching false doctrine? That was the problem I had before joining RCC , it is not a trip you up apologetic argument.

 

[crossnote]

You don't know that! And if - in a church in which doctrine was handed down by tradition as it was in those days before NT, from apostles to next...

If you think Jesus would allow it to apostasize in the first handover, you have no faith in him! He said " the gates of hell would not prevail" against his church as you presume....

That's a big IF. Let's start by showing us where those Roman Traditions you mentioned are found in the writings of the Apostles.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Its Mary on steriods

And it's like, out of one side of their mouths they don't have idols, then, next thing you see, they're parading a statue of Mary down Main Street, on an elevated platform, bowing to Popes. Guess you're not supposed to believe your lying eyes?

 

[mikeuk]

So is the prayer that Valiant posted true?

it is not in the catechism that I am aware, so not catholic teaching which says on Mary
" she in no way obscures or reduces the sole mediation of Christ" or some such - look it up for yourself.

Yes they go overboard on Mary, but the catechism and ex cathedra define catholic belief, not the passionate writings even of a pope.

 

[Blain]

it is not in the catechism that I am aware, so not catholic teaching which says on Mary
" she in no way obscures or reduces the sole mediation of Christ" or some such - look it up for yourself.

Yes they go overboard on Mary, but the catechism and ex cathedra define catholic belief, not the passionate writings even of a pope.

Where would I go online to learn the Catholics main doctrines and beliefs?

 

[crossnote]

Funny how Peter, yes Peter or Paul or James never mention Mary in their letters to the Churches.

 

[JesusIsAll]

it is not in the catechism that I am aware, so not catholic teaching which says on Mary
" she in no way obscures or reduces the sole mediation of Christ" or some such - look it up for yourself.

Yes they go overboard on Mary, but the catechism and ex cathedra define catholic belief, not the passionate writings even of a pope.

There are two possibilities. You either need to cultivate some veracity, or learn your cult, before speaking on it,

"Therefore the blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." p.252, # 969

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things." p. 252, # 966

 

[mikeuk]

That's a big IF. Let's start by showing us where those Roman Traditions you mentioned are found in the writings of the Apostles.

But that is where we differ," the pillar and foundation of truth is the church", and Paul urges " stay true to tradition passed by word of mouth and letter" so the gospels were not around at that time, which is why the church was handed on that way. And anyway the gospels do not purport to be a complete how to manual of Christian living, you can see what the apostles taught in the writings of those following them

Ignatius to smyrneans was written before even the first canon of scripture ( Marcions) and even that canon was declared heretical, the real one you use now, a long time in the future from Ignatius. Ignatius does not change gospels, he shows the true interpretation was real presence administered by the bishops appointed answering the question of " do this " - who could do it after the apostles! Tradition provides interpretation for scripture.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Funny how Peter, yes Peter or Paul or James never mention Mary in their letters to the Churches.

This is a "deaf ears" argument, though. A real Catholic will readily admit, up front, it doesn't need to be in the Bible, by their "tradition" and the likes of ex cathedra, they assign themselves the right to make it up, as they go along, to hijack the faith, which they've done, and with no shame by the word of God.

 

[crossnote]

But that is where we differ," the pillar and foundation of truth is the church", and Paul urges " stay true to tradition passed by word of mouth and letter" so the gospels were not around at that time, which is why the church was handed on that way. And anyway the gospels do not purport to be a complete how to manual of Christian living, you can see what the apostles taught in the writings of those following them

Ignatius to smyrneans was written before even the first canon of scripture ( Marcions) and even that canon was declared heretical, the real one you use now, a long time in the future from Ignatius. Ignatius does not change gospels, he shows the true interpretation was real presence administered by the bishops appointed answering the question of " do this " - who could do it after the apostles! Tradition provides interpretation for scripture.

But you are using Scripture to make your case that the Church is the foundation. That’s a bit self defeating ...no?

 

[JesusIsAll]

Where would I go online to learn the Catholics main doctrines and beliefs?

The book they call the Catechism. I have one somewhere in the attic, surely online, also. But, if you've not seen it, some of it's shocking, marvelous entertainment.

 

[mikeuk]

You conveniently ignore what I told you to look for, in the next paragraph, not surprisingly I do know the catechism

If you must quote , at least do it objectively.

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ

There are two possibilities. You either need to cultivate some veracity, or learn your cult, before speaking on it,

"Therefore the blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." p.252, # 969

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things." p. 252, # 966

 

[Utah]

Where would I go online to learn the Catholics main doctrines and beliefs?

Google Catholic main doctrines and beliefs.

 

[mikeuk]

But you are using Scripture to make your case that the Church is the foundation. That’s a bit self defeating ...no?

I am just reading scripture in the light of history. The canon was not around yet, so tradition was handed on by the church by word of mouth and letter - Paul says so - which is why the pillar of truth is the church, it could not be the NT back then , it did not exist.

 

[JesusIsAll]

You conveniently ignore what I told you to look for, in the next paragraph, not surprisingly I do know the catechism

If you must quote , at least do it objectively.

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ

I knew that. The difference between us is that double-talk doesn't obscure fundamental error. Truth comes out of the middle, not both sides of your mouth. You'd probably love the Quran.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Google Catholic main doctrines and beliefs.

To get to the juicy stuff quicker, include "error" in the search. You're otherwise going to run into the Catholic redaction web.

 

[mikeuk]

Where would I go online to learn the Catholics main doctrines and beliefs?

From the horses mouth so to speak - the catechism is here

It not only catalogues beliefs, but cross refs scripture, councils and early fathers.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Thats the thing, most of it we all agree on - a big chunk on the nicene creed and meaning

 

[Blain]

Hey guys lets ease off of Mikeuk a bit, this is more of an insult and mockery type of discussion which is not what we are called to do

 

[mikeuk]

I knew that. The difference between us is that double-talk doesn't obscure fundamental error. Truth comes out of the middle, not both sides of your mouth. You'd probably love the Quran.

If you knew why not quote it for balance, and the comment on Quran, three strikes and you are out.
After being rude at least 3 times, you are now on ignore.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Hey guys lets ease off of Mikeuk a bit, this is more of an insult and mockery type of discussion which is not what we are called to do

When the truth of God is the issue, please speak for yourself. Maybe you guys can PM kumbaya?