Catholics
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This is the biggest problem I have with totally discounting the idea of intercession of the saints (Mary included)
If we do discount this as an appropriate practice, then we must either:
1. Deny that any miracles have ever happened as a result of asking for such intersession.
2. Acknowledge that God permits Satan (for Satan can only do what God permits) to perform miracles to deceive people who believe in the validity of the practice.
Perhaps there is a third alternative I have not considered, can someone who thinks that the practice of asking for intersession of saints is akin to Satan worship help me see the flaw in my thinking?
If we do discount this as an appropriate practice, then we must either:
1. Deny that any miracles have ever happened as a result of asking for such intersession.
2. Acknowledge that God permits Satan (for Satan can only do what God permits) to perform miracles to deceive people who believe in the validity of the practice.
Perhaps there is a third alternative I have not considered, can someone who thinks that the practice of asking for intersession of saints is akin to Satan worship help me see the flaw in my thinking?
Well, let's see. Papal infallibility is a myth. If no other pope in the history of the RCC proved that one it was Jospeph Ratzinger.
Mariology is not scriptural. Purgatory is not scriptural and in fact marginalizes the death of Christ on the cross. As does the crucifix that perpetually holds Christ up to shame for his resurrection being marginalized due to his body being nailed to the icon.
The mass is not scriptural, nor is the Eucharist rite scriptural or in keeping with Christ's teaching.
The Rosary is not scriptural. Graven images are against scripture and one of the 10 commands of what not to do, while the RCC is full of such things.
Revering the dead, necromancy for all intents and purposes, is contrary to scripture. Revering the dead that are deified as saints, asking them to intercede with the Godhead on behalf of the believer, is not scriptural when the Bible tells us there is one mediator between man and God and that is Christ Jesus. This would also revoke the primacy of the pope.
When Jesus referred to the Pharisees and Sadducee as vipers because of their rulership in the temple over the people and the path to God, how would one imagine he would approve the same heirarchal construct in the RCC.
When Jesus told Peter he was the rock upon which he will build his church he wasn't talking about the construction of the Vatican and the RCC. The Vatican being constructed over the tombs of the dead pagans and it's bowels now filled with the corpses of dead popes, while the body parts of the dead later decreed "saints" by election of the RCC authority, are worshiped as relics.
Jesus was instead talking about the testimony of Peter and his delivering the good news of Christ unto the world. The church, contrary to what the RCC recognizes, is the body of the faithful in Christ in whom the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling. We are all saints in Christ Jesus.
As for what denomination is closest to that of the true teachings of Christ? As to a denominational alignment for the Christian, some say the Church of Christ. It holds strictly to the teachings of Christ in scripture.
I'm unaffiliated. The church of Christ for me is the body of faithful in Jesus. Who said, where two or three are gathered in my name there am I also.
Community world wide of the "Christian church" is insured in the billions of those faithful to Christ Jesus first.
Not to the church that presumes to be an entity that acts as emissary between the faithful and God. And who's appointed authorities claim to communicate changes in doctrine because God has a one on one with the pope. While priests are said to be the 'father' and who act as the representative of Jesus on earth . When Jesus told us call no man father but your Father in Heaven.
Those are just a few examples.
Mariology is not scriptural. Purgatory is not scriptural and in fact marginalizes the death of Christ on the cross. As does the crucifix that perpetually holds Christ up to shame for his resurrection being marginalized due to his body being nailed to the icon.
The mass is not scriptural, nor is the Eucharist rite scriptural or in keeping with Christ's teaching.
The Rosary is not scriptural. Graven images are against scripture and one of the 10 commands of what not to do, while the RCC is full of such things.
Revering the dead, necromancy for all intents and purposes, is contrary to scripture. Revering the dead that are deified as saints, asking them to intercede with the Godhead on behalf of the believer, is not scriptural when the Bible tells us there is one mediator between man and God and that is Christ Jesus. This would also revoke the primacy of the pope.
When Jesus referred to the Pharisees and Sadducee as vipers because of their rulership in the temple over the people and the path to God, how would one imagine he would approve the same heirarchal construct in the RCC.
When Jesus told Peter he was the rock upon which he will build his church he wasn't talking about the construction of the Vatican and the RCC. The Vatican being constructed over the tombs of the dead pagans and it's bowels now filled with the corpses of dead popes, while the body parts of the dead later decreed "saints" by election of the RCC authority, are worshiped as relics.
Jesus was instead talking about the testimony of Peter and his delivering the good news of Christ unto the world. The church, contrary to what the RCC recognizes, is the body of the faithful in Christ in whom the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling. We are all saints in Christ Jesus.
As for what denomination is closest to that of the true teachings of Christ? As to a denominational alignment for the Christian, some say the Church of Christ. It holds strictly to the teachings of Christ in scripture.
I'm unaffiliated. The church of Christ for me is the body of faithful in Jesus. Who said, where two or three are gathered in my name there am I also.
Community world wide of the "Christian church" is insured in the billions of those faithful to Christ Jesus first.
Not to the church that presumes to be an entity that acts as emissary between the faithful and God. And who's appointed authorities claim to communicate changes in doctrine because God has a one on one with the pope. While priests are said to be the 'father' and who act as the representative of Jesus on earth . When Jesus told us call no man father but your Father in Heaven.
Those are just a few examples.
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M
I am getting lost here. Eat an elephant one bite at a time.
This questioning stemmed I thought from my contention that we can see some of what apostles passed on in ECF - ignatius saying real presence, bishop needed very early in the church, which Interprets the practice of the Eucharist.
My saying that paradosis , tradition was the way the first generations handed on truth.
Dont get how your remark fits in?
This questioning stemmed I thought from my contention that we can see some of what apostles passed on in ECF - ignatius saying real presence, bishop needed very early in the church, which Interprets the practice of the Eucharist.
My saying that paradosis , tradition was the way the first generations handed on truth.
Dont get how your remark fits in?
Munch !!
How could the Apostles 'pass on' what they never taught? Ignatius said nothing about the real presence. you read it into his words. the New Testament church had bishops (plural). Every church needs overseers. they worked together to plan the services, preach the word, and oversee and guide God's people. They were not bishops in the Roman Catholic sense.
yes in the tradition put into the Gospels and the epistles. They handed down to the church of their day information about the life and teaching of Jesus which was then written down in the Gospels. So the paradosis is the Gospels
How could the Apostles 'pass on' what they never taught? Ignatius said nothing about the real presence. you read it into his words. the New Testament church had bishops (plural). Every church needs overseers. they worked together to plan the services, preach the word, and oversee and guide God's people. They were not bishops in the Roman Catholic sense.
yes in the tradition put into the Gospels and the epistles. They handed down to the church of their day information about the life and teaching of Jesus which was then written down in the Gospels. So the paradosis is the Gospels
This is not true. They had a canon of Scripture before Marcion. Where do you think Marcion got his list from. He selected out books from those which were read in churches. Most of the churches had the Gospels, Acts, Paul's epistles, Peter' epistle, John's epistle and treated them as Scripture (2 Pet 3.16).
J
Well, if it were true I'm unloving, this would have no bearing on the fact that by your lies you're known. In my Bible, God hates a liar. You cultists are all the same. Present legitimate claims and objections you can't deal with, and your last refuge is always calling people heretics and devils. Some things have not changed since before the Reformation. To call people devils is the worst slander possible, and devil even means slanderer. Your phony degeneracy, followed by talk of love: that dog don't hunt. You are no babe in the worlds, neither you or your psycho, control freak "church." You are a flaming hypocrite. As to your ability to defend the undefendable of your butchered "Christian" faith of the Catechism, here's what belongs in your playbook,
Used to be just burning Bibles, and the possessors, as well as the translators. Now all you can to is try to defame those who revere the word of God, and this conversation is a dime a dozen encounter with a Catholic who will never be able to answer for all the perversion of truth and corruption.
“When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate.”
Used to be just burning Bibles, and the possessors, as well as the translators. Now all you can to is try to defame those who revere the word of God, and this conversation is a dime a dozen encounter with a Catholic who will never be able to answer for all the perversion of truth and corruption.
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