Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[Jackson123]

no, i haven't.



I don't deny the possibility. or the accounts of it. Jesus has overcome death itself. Death is nothing. Why do you give it so much authority?



That's fine, its not a requirement.



I have no idea



No I don't, some do.



Wouldn't that be nice?


Its not like some audible voice I hear, I just have faith that a righteous ones prayers will reach Christ. its just different to me, here on earth we can ask our brothers and sisters in Christ to "pray for us", "pray for my family", "pray for my health" etc. But when they die that concept of prayer is now void.

The Body of Christ cant pray for each other because of death? seems very week.

I hold up the idea that if one has fought the good fight and is now in the presence of our Lord and God is more powerful than ever to pray for others.

Seem to me you just have a faith that the dead in Christ able to speak to you, but not audible.

1. do you have verse that state it?

2. You said the dead in Christ more live then the living in Christ.

The living in Christ able to speak (audible) why you think the dead( more living) not able to speak (audible)

If one speak to you and you not hear in audible way, how do you know He is you dad, or Peter.

It like in the movie, the Endor able to call they client grandpa spirit, do you believe that spirit is real grandpa spirit?

 

[Jackson123]

Is formal church Pillar of truth?

With love and sincerity, I represent this fact.

High rank church/vatican officer does gang rape in the Church headquarter/ the very holy place.

the tree show by it fruit.

[h=1]Emanuela Orlandi 'was kidnapped for sex parties for Vatican police'[/h][h=2]A teenage girl whose disappearance in Rome has remained a mystery for 30 years was kidnapped for sex parties by a gang involving Vatican police and foreign diplomats, the Roman Catholic Church's leading exorcist has claimed.[/h][TABLE]
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Emanuela Orlandi, who was 15 at the time of her disappearance, was the daughter of a Vatican employee Photo: Rex






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By Nick Squires, Rome

8:11PM BST 22 May 2012



Father Gabriele Amorth, who was appointed by the late John Paul II as the Vatican's chief exorcist and claims to have performed thousands of exorcisms, said Emanuela Orlandi was later murdered and her body disposed of.

In the latest twist in one of the Holy See's most enduring mysteries, he said the 15-year-old schoolgirl was snatched from the streets of central Rome in the summer of 1983 and forced to take part in sex parties.

"This was a crime with a sexual motive. Parties were organised, with a Vatican gendarme acting as the 'recruiter' of the girls.

"The network involved diplomatic personnel from a foreign embassy to the Holy See. I believe Emanuela ended up a victim of this circle," Father Amorth, the honorary president of the International Association of Exorcists, told La Stampa newspaper.

The debate over who kidnapped Emanuela and what became of her has raged in Italy for three decades.

[h=2]Related Articles[/h]

 

[Jackson123]

[h=1]Emanuela Orlandi Was 'Kidnapped For Vatican Sex Parties,' Claims Father Gabriele Amorth[/h]


Posted: 05/22/2012 5:52 pm EDT Updated: 05/24/2012 5:12 pm EDT

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The Holy See was directly involved in thedisappearance of 15-year-old Emanuela Orlandi in 1983, according to a contentious accusation by the Catholic Church's leading exorcist. The Rev. Gabriele Amorth claimed that the girl's kidnapping was a "crime of a sexual nature."
"Parties were organized, with a Vatican gendarme acting as the 'recruiter' of the girls," Amorth told La Stampa, according to a translation by The Telegraph. "The network involved diplomatic personnel from a foreign embassy to the Holy See. I believe Emanuela ended up a victim of this circle."
Amorth, who was appointed by Pope John Paul II and has carried out tens of thousands of exorcisms, is no stranger to controversial public statements; according to The Sun, the exorcist has called Harry Potter the "work of the devil," and has claimed "the devil was at work in the Vatican" when discussing the Catholic Church's sex scandals.
Clues to the missing girl's whereabouts had pointed in several directions, including toward a Turkish gunman who attempted to assassinate Pope John Paul II, The Telegraph reports.
On May 14, one rumor led Italian police to exhume the grave of Enrico De Pedis, a member of Rome's Magliana mob who was killed in 1990, the Associated Press reports. A one-time girlfriend previously said De Pedis committed the kidnapping, and an anonymous call to a television show in 2005 suggested clues on Orlandi's fate lay in the dead mobster's tomb in Basilica of Sant’Apollinaire. A set of bones not belonging to De Pedis were found, but the identity of the remains has yet to be released.
The Vatican insists it has done everything in its power to help solve the mystery of the missing girl.
Clarification: This story previously indicated that Amorth has carried out 70,000 exorcisms. We've amended that to say that he claims the number is in the tens of thousands. Several published reports over the last few years have indicated his claims are in that range, but HuffPost has not been able to verify any current estimate.

 

[valiant]

Valient, that's your interpretation or speculation on it. That's fine. No one is telling you that you have to do it to be a Christian. The experience of the body of Christ says otherwise.

The body of Christ is in no position to say otherwise. It can have no possible grounds for doing so except idle speculation. On the other hand the Scriptures written over a period of 2000 years know of no case where prayers to the dead are either permitted or practised.

Could such an important teaching not have been clearly spoken of if it was true? Would not Jesus have emphasised it? Do you think Paul would have ignored such an important teaching if it were true? He was constantly encouraging to prayer. Certainly occult contact with the dead is forbidden. What is the difference between that and prayers to the dead? Seeking to pray to the dead is an occult practise.

 

[mattp0625]

Mary is in heaven.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

 

[mattp0625]

[SUP]40 [/SUP]But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? [SUP]41 [/SUP]We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[SUP][d][/SUP]”
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

[notuptome]

Some here in this thread are apparently determined to so contaminate this thread as to prevent any real biblical discussion with the Roman Catholics here.

The word of God is the only thing that can reason with the Roman Catholic heart and convince it of Gods requirement regarding salvation by grace through faith.

Constantly bludgeoning Roman Catholics with accusations of gross sin and misconduct really will not accomplish anything for Christ. You only cause them to dig in and be more obstinate in their denial of Christ.

To testify of Christ is to tell of His goodness not to malign everybody who is yet outside the body of Christ. Until you return to a tone of sweetness and holy purity you only sound like tinkling brass. If they argue against the word of God it is to their loss but the word is given and the blood remains on them.

I can only show forth the word of God I cannot nor am I expected to make anyone believe that word of God. That is Gods business and His alone.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[MikeHenderson]

What mattp0625 just pointed out was when Lazarus died he was with Abraham, and the rich mad was in Hades. He is correct in what mattp0625 pointed out where we go when we die.

How then can you Roman Catholics believe in and teach Purgatory? If Purgatory was true then Lazarus would have been in and still be in Purgatory.

What mattp0625 pointed out proves there is no Purgatory. Purgatory is a man made doctrine that mattp0625 just proves that is a false doctrine.

 

[MikeHenderson]

I have a question.

Who has all the Truth? Does God have all the Truth or does the Roman Catholics have all the Truth?

I invite everybody to answe this question. Not just Roman Catholics, but everybody to answer this question.

 

[KenAllan]

I'll answer the question Mike.

Its God and ONLY God that has all the Truth. There is no Truth outside of God. Therefore the Roman Catholics do not have the Truth because they teach Mary was sinless.

 

[valiant]

Mary is in heaven.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Abraham was also in Heaven. So what does that prove? What this parable proves is that those in Heaven cannot communicate with those on earth and vice versa.

 

[mattp0625]

Gabriel did

 

[Jackson123]

Gabriel did

Do you try to say, because Gabriel did speak to living person, mean dead person able to speak to living person?

Gabriel is not dead person, He is an angel brother.

When my mom alive, if she know a person will harm me, she will protect me or eat least warn me.

Because she love me very much.

After her dead, do you think she stop loving me?

Some body cheat me after her dead and she not warn me. Why? because she stop loving me?

Because she not aware and not able to communicate with me anymore.

 

[mattp0625]

The saints are greater than the Angels. 1Cor 6
Both in heaven with God.

 

[notuptome]

The saints are greater than the Angels. 1Cor 6
Both in heaven with God.

Nothing more than romantic fantasy. The number of people in the bible who can claim a legitimate conversation with an angel is real small. Given the sheer number of people on the earth over the last two millennia I should think the probabilities of an occurrence is extremely remote at best. Hebrews chapter one clearly expresses Gods intent to speak to us through His Son not through angels or glorified saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[valiant]

The saints are greater than the Angels. 1Cor 6
Both in heaven with God.

That is false arguing. I Cor 6 is certainly not talking abut Gabriel the chief angel. Nor of angels in Heaven. It was Gabriel who 'stood in the presence of God' who spoke to Zacharias and Mary. Ordinary angels do not communicate with men.

Furthermore the fact that we will judge fallen angels does not mean that we are greater than they. We will only do so alongside the LORD Jesus Christ. You really cannot just claim that 'men are greater than angels' and then assume whatever you like from it. The Scripture knows nothing of communication of the dead with the living.

But you do demonstrate the weakness of Roman Catholic arguments

 

[AngelFrog]

The Vatican city state is the smallest sovereign country on earth.
[video=youtube;sBxyHqxS68c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBxyHqxS68c[/video]

 

[AngelFrog]

When one considers that the pope is considered infallible according to church doctrine, and he's the representative of Jesus on earth, the history of the papacy must then demonstrate a pristine righteous image in order to truly be God's representative on earth.

During WW2 Hitler, an avowed Catholic, was not excommunicated by Pope Pius XII. Nor were any of his henchmen who were Roman Catholic. Why? Probably because Pope Pius XII was antisemitic.
[video=youtube;nrKQ5FlFYkQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrKQ5FlFYkQ[/video]

 

[AngelFrog]

Clearly in the Scriptures the Holy Spirit said Mary was a sinner,

Please post those scriptures.

 

[valiant]

Please post those scriptures.

Mary spoke of 'GOD MY SAVIOUR' (Luke 1.47). Only a sinner needs a Saviour.

When Jesus stayed in Jerusalem (as a boy of twelve) His parents did not know it. They 'supposed Him to be in the company' and only later discovered that He was not. If a mother did that in the UK today the question would arise as to whether social services should be called in because the mother was inadequate. However you dress it up she fell short of her parental responsibility. And that is a failing, a sin. (Luke 2.41-51).

When Jesus was engaged in His ministry 'His family' (Mark 3.21), defined in 3.31-35 as Mary and His brothers, decided to 'seize Him' so as to save Him from Himself. They came and called for Him to come out to them. Jesus IGNORED Mary's presence and said 'Who is My mother, Who are My brothers? Those who do the will of God, the same are My mother, My sisters and My brothers'. This was a clear putting of Mary in her place and demonstrated that Jesus saw her as sinning in what she was trying to do.

When the woman called out to Jesus, 'blessed is the womb that bore you and the nipples you have sucked'. Jesus replied, 'YES RATHER blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.' (Luke 11.27-28) Jesus clearly did not see her as permanently BLESSED.