LOL do you see all these contradictory arguments which no one wins as 'encouraging one another'? What Paul meant is that we were to encourage each other in the thought that Jesus is coming back again (which we all believe), will raise the dead at the general resurrection, and will seize up the living saints, and transform them so that they will be with Him for ever.
When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You scoff at nearly everything, don't you?
Your English slant on HIS Eminent Calling Out of the Bride does not seem to doing much to encourage people to attend Church over there:
Our Church is nearly Full every week. And the last Church that I attended in California, before I moved to this smaller town in Nevada WAS OVER FULL every week with 3 Sunday Services every Sunday Morning. If you did not get there EARLY, you ended up in another room watching the Service on Closed Circuit TV.
Bowhunter, there you go firing those under spined arrows, with bad fletching, and with those three blade Shick Injector broadheads again. They fly so CROOKED they never come close to hitting what you are aiming at.
YOU are not stupid, so you know I was talking about the Non-Denominational Bible Churches that I have attended regularly the past several YEARS.
I cannot believe modern men cannot think through how a scroll would be sealed seven times in Bible times. The erroneous picture above, is NOT your fault, MOST OF THE ARTISTS of today, GOT IT TOTALLY WRONG. No way would there be seven seals on ONE EDGE as pictured. The entire prophesy would have been written, and then rolled back up placing a seal between each event, if that is where the author wanted. Therefore the last event would be rolled up, and the sealed placed before any part of that last written event could be seen. Then it would be rolled some more, and another seal placed, between events, awaiting the one that has the AUTHORITY to break that seal; before readers could read that part. And so on, and so on. Therefore the DEEPEST seal in the scroll, would be the last seal; and the ONE on the outer edge would be the FIRST SEAL. Like I said it does not take a genius to figure that out, YET, most artists today picture all seven on the OUTER EDGE. This artist at least got that right, even though he was not a very good artist:
Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.”
Do you not see where it says, "opened one of the seals?" This implies the Lamb had a choice of seals to open meaning all seven seals were available to him. Now look at this verse which absolutely shatters your theory.
And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
If the seals were rolled up, John would have seen only one seal as the others would not be visible to him. John saw the seven seals, sorry.
There are time periods which some call dispensations. I am not a dispensationalist but I do recognize unique time periods. One such set of time periods or eras could be broken down into the changes the world has or will experience.
Pre-Flood
Post Flood
Post Return of Christ when all things are made new
Another way to do it is based on God's relationship with man.
Creation to Abraham
Abraham to Christ
Christ until His Post Trib Return (Church age)
We both see an end to the Church Age. The difference in our views is you have the Church being raptured away prior to the Tribulation where I see the Church Age ending in the church falling away and/or being slaughtered during the Tribulation. You have no verse that supports your position of the Lord returning with "raptured" saints who never saw death. The passage you provided in Rev 20:4-6 supports my position, dead and resurrected saints who died during the Tribulation returning.
Pre-Flood
Post Flood
Post Return of Christ when all things are made new
Another way to do it is based on God's relationship with man.
Creation to Abraham
Abraham to Christ
Christ until His Post Trib Return (Church age)
We both see an end to the Church Age. The difference in our views is you have the Church being raptured away prior to the Tribulation where I see the Church Age ending in the church falling away and/or being slaughtered during the Tribulation. You have no verse that supports your position of the Lord returning with "raptured" saints who never saw death. The passage you provided in Rev 20:4-6 supports my position, dead and resurrected saints who died during the Tribulation returning.
Agreed. . .but don't you think there are mysteries (secrets) that are now revealed for all in the NT; e.g.,
the mystery of:
transformed bodies at the resurrection - 1Co 15:51,
God's will which he purposed in Christ Jesus - Eph 1:9,
Christ - Eph 3:4; Col 4:3,
administration of the mystery of Christ; i.e., now through the church the manifold wisdom of God
should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms - Eph 3:10,
the church as the wife (bride) of Christ - Eph 5:28-32; Rev 21:9,
the gospel - Eph 6:25-26,
Christ in you, the hope of glory - Col 1:27,
Christ, the mystery of God - Col 2:2,
the faith--its deep truths - 1Tim 3:9,
godliness, the incarnation - 1Tim 3:16.
the mystery of:
transformed bodies at the resurrection - 1Co 15:51,
God's will which he purposed in Christ Jesus - Eph 1:9,
Christ - Eph 3:4; Col 4:3,
administration of the mystery of Christ; i.e., now through the church the manifold wisdom of God
should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms - Eph 3:10,
the church as the wife (bride) of Christ - Eph 5:28-32; Rev 21:9,
the gospel - Eph 6:25-26,
Christ in you, the hope of glory - Col 1:27,
Christ, the mystery of God - Col 2:2,
the faith--its deep truths - 1Tim 3:9,
godliness, the incarnation - 1Tim 3:16.
Last edited:
Absolutely nothing??? Are you certain there is absolutely nothing??? What are the "two witnesses" called???
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
Olive Trees??? How about Romans 11?
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Lampstands??? How about Rev 1???
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
So ask yourself??? Since Christ, what two groups represent witnesses to the God of the earth? So please don't say there is absolutely NOTHING there. It sure makes a lot more sense than two fire breathing men who get killed by a Beast who crawls up from the Bottomless Pit. You've been watching too many movies my friend.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
Olive Trees??? How about Romans 11?
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Lampstands??? How about Rev 1???
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
So ask yourself??? Since Christ, what two groups represent witnesses to the God of the earth? So please don't say there is absolutely NOTHING there. It sure makes a lot more sense than two fire breathing men who get killed by a Beast who crawls up from the Bottomless Pit. You've been watching too many movies my friend.
No I don't scoff at nearly everything. But I am amused at the countless theories on details about the second coming that flood out from America. Everyone thinks everyone else is wrong. A little twisting of the Greek here, a little ignoring of the context there, a little fantasising and it is turned into an untenable theory which largely ignores the New Testament.
Further it gives the impression that God had no interest in His people through the ages. All He could talk about is the last few years of the age. Everything has to apply to the present day. Can't you see how foolish that suggestion is? No I don't suppose you can. You are caught up in untenable theories.
Further it gives the impression that God had no interest in His people through the ages. All He could talk about is the last few years of the age. Everything has to apply to the present day. Can't you see how foolish that suggestion is? No I don't suppose you can. You are caught up in untenable theories.
That refers to the Writing:
I just looked at that verse in SEVERAL VERSIONS, and YOU MISSED LOCATION OF THE COMA. It's location, clearly refers back to the Writing, which was on the front and the BACK side of the scroll; and NOT that the Seals were on the back. If the seals were on the Back of the scroll, you would have a major misunderstanding. The Scroll has no BACK it is round, and even if you wanted to call the OUTSIDE after it was rolled up the Back, the Coma would belong ahead of the word and and NOT after the word back. Therefore back refers to the writing and NOT the seals.
ALL OF THESE Versions are worded almost IDENTICAL WORD FOR WORD, and all place the coma after the word BACK:
Revelation 5:1 (NKJV) (and also: KJV, ASV, NASB, HCSB, ESV, NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
NOW LOOK at the Versions that had a slightly different wording for Clarification:
Revelation 5:1 (ISV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw in the right hand of the one who sits on the throne a scroll written on the inside and on the outside. It was sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:1 (YLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw upon the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne a scroll, written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals;
Revelation 5:1 (GW)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who sits on the throne. It had writing both on the inside and on the outside. It was sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:1 (NJB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] I saw that in the right hand of the One sitting on the throne there was a scroll that was written on back and front and was sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:1 (BBE)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the high seat, a book with writing inside it and on the back, shut with seven stamps of wax.
Revelation 5:1 (NLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. There was writing on the inside and the outside of the scroll, and it was sealed with seven seals.
NOW look at the same Scroll being described by Ezekiel:
I will have to admit that the Bible is not specific as to the LOCATION of the Seven Seals, but only mentions there are SEVEN of them, and ONLY CHRIST is worthy to open each one of them. Seven on outside would be the ROMAN way to seal a DEED and such a Document by Roman LAW had to have seven Seals. "When a scroll was finished, it was fastened with strings and the strings were sealed with wax at the knots." BUT, Roman Scrolls were a single roled up piece of parchment, and NOT a two sided Hebrew style of Scroll:
Now in this NEXT picture, I find the Artist's placement of the Seals on the Scroll, interesting. It would be another way to be sure that only one section or Column could be read at a time:
Now there is a placement of the seals that I never thought of. All seven can be seen and YET you can open and read each segment or column one at a time. Will we know for sure this side of heaven, where the seals were located on the Scroll that John SAW? NO, John did not give us that information; however I still lean towards the idea that they were placed so that as each seal was broken, then prophecies therein HAPPEN.
Why Do I believe that? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS:
Revelation 6:1-17 (RSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say, as with a voice of thunder, "Come!"
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and its rider had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!"
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And out came another horse, bright red; its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that men should slay one another; and he was given a great sword.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I saw, and behold, a black horse, and its rider had a balance in his hand;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not harm oil and wine!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!"
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him; and they were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"
I just looked at that verse in SEVERAL VERSIONS, and YOU MISSED LOCATION OF THE COMA. It's location, clearly refers back to the Writing, which was on the front and the BACK side of the scroll; and NOT that the Seals were on the back. If the seals were on the Back of the scroll, you would have a major misunderstanding. The Scroll has no BACK it is round, and even if you wanted to call the OUTSIDE after it was rolled up the Back, the Coma would belong ahead of the word and and NOT after the word back. Therefore back refers to the writing and NOT the seals.
ALL OF THESE Versions are worded almost IDENTICAL WORD FOR WORD, and all place the coma after the word BACK:
Revelation 5:1 (NKJV) (and also: KJV, ASV, NASB, HCSB, ESV, NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
NOW LOOK at the Versions that had a slightly different wording for Clarification:
Revelation 5:1 (ISV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw in the right hand of the one who sits on the throne a scroll written on the inside and on the outside. It was sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:1 (YLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw upon the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne a scroll, written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals;
Revelation 5:1 (GW)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who sits on the throne. It had writing both on the inside and on the outside. It was sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:1 (NJB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] I saw that in the right hand of the One sitting on the throne there was a scroll that was written on back and front and was sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:1 (BBE)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the high seat, a book with writing inside it and on the back, shut with seven stamps of wax.
Revelation 5:1 (NLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. There was writing on the inside and the outside of the scroll, and it was sealed with seven seals.
NOW look at the same Scroll being described by Ezekiel:
I will have to admit that the Bible is not specific as to the LOCATION of the Seven Seals, but only mentions there are SEVEN of them, and ONLY CHRIST is worthy to open each one of them. Seven on outside would be the ROMAN way to seal a DEED and such a Document by Roman LAW had to have seven Seals. "When a scroll was finished, it was fastened with strings and the strings were sealed with wax at the knots." BUT, Roman Scrolls were a single roled up piece of parchment, and NOT a two sided Hebrew style of Scroll:
Now in this NEXT picture, I find the Artist's placement of the Seals on the Scroll, interesting. It would be another way to be sure that only one section or Column could be read at a time:
Now there is a placement of the seals that I never thought of. All seven can be seen and YET you can open and read each segment or column one at a time. Will we know for sure this side of heaven, where the seals were located on the Scroll that John SAW? NO, John did not give us that information; however I still lean towards the idea that they were placed so that as each seal was broken, then prophecies therein HAPPEN.
Why Do I believe that? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS:
Revelation 6:1-17 (RSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say, as with a voice of thunder, "Come!"
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and its rider had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!"
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And out came another horse, bright red; its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that men should slay one another; and he was given a great sword.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I saw, and behold, a black horse, and its rider had a balance in his hand;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not harm oil and wine!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!"
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him; and they were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"
Last edited:
VCO,
You spent a lot of time on the scroll. Interesting stuff but nothing conclusive can be drawn. What is conclusive is the Tribulation is absolutely over by the time of the 6th seal. There can be no doubt about that given the comparison of the Sixth Seal to Mat 24:29-31.
Remember, Revelation isn't the "Revealing of the Tribulation," it is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ." Jesus returns as an avenging victorious warrior and king. He destroys His enemies, those who have been harming (and killing) His people (Jews and Christians alike).
If we look at the world today (assuming we are in the end times) what religious group appears most likely poised to have the desire and means to harm God's People? Israel is like an island in the "sea" of Muslims. So, if the Islamic world is Babylon (which I am completely convinced) then it would appear obvious that Christ defeats the Islamic world when He returns. For Israel to finally possess all the Land they were given, and finally live in peace as foretold, the Islamic world needs to go away.
We know with absolute certainty that the Bowls are God's Wrath and they are "paying back" Babylon. Thus the Tribulation must be over before all of the bowls are poured. So, what about the Trumpets?
Trumpet 5 is clearly aimed at "those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads" so clearly these are not God's People being targeted. Further, at Trumpet 5 we are told that these "locusts" are not to harm the "grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree." So, grass, green thing and tree must be good. Nobody is killed at Trumpet 5 so this seems like a warning to those who are doing bad before punishment is handed out. God usually givens man a warning and time to repent and turn their ways before destruction.
Trumpet 6 kills 1/3 of the world. Rev 9:20-21 indicates that this plague is divine punishment as you have idol worship being discussed and the failure to repent being discussed. You have people worshiping demons and you have fire, smoke and brimstone, which is indicative of divine punishment. So the question begs, who are the 1/3 of the world that gets killed? Are they random or targeted? We know the angels doing the killing are at the River Euphrates which is of course at the heart of the Islamic world.
So Trump 5 & 6 are also after the Tribulation is over because the target of both is the Islamic world. So, what of Trumpets 1-4? Are they before or after the Tribulation?
You spent a lot of time on the scroll. Interesting stuff but nothing conclusive can be drawn. What is conclusive is the Tribulation is absolutely over by the time of the 6th seal. There can be no doubt about that given the comparison of the Sixth Seal to Mat 24:29-31.
Remember, Revelation isn't the "Revealing of the Tribulation," it is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ." Jesus returns as an avenging victorious warrior and king. He destroys His enemies, those who have been harming (and killing) His people (Jews and Christians alike).
If we look at the world today (assuming we are in the end times) what religious group appears most likely poised to have the desire and means to harm God's People? Israel is like an island in the "sea" of Muslims. So, if the Islamic world is Babylon (which I am completely convinced) then it would appear obvious that Christ defeats the Islamic world when He returns. For Israel to finally possess all the Land they were given, and finally live in peace as foretold, the Islamic world needs to go away.
We know with absolute certainty that the Bowls are God's Wrath and they are "paying back" Babylon. Thus the Tribulation must be over before all of the bowls are poured. So, what about the Trumpets?
Trumpet 5 is clearly aimed at "those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads" so clearly these are not God's People being targeted. Further, at Trumpet 5 we are told that these "locusts" are not to harm the "grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree." So, grass, green thing and tree must be good. Nobody is killed at Trumpet 5 so this seems like a warning to those who are doing bad before punishment is handed out. God usually givens man a warning and time to repent and turn their ways before destruction.
Trumpet 6 kills 1/3 of the world. Rev 9:20-21 indicates that this plague is divine punishment as you have idol worship being discussed and the failure to repent being discussed. You have people worshiping demons and you have fire, smoke and brimstone, which is indicative of divine punishment. So the question begs, who are the 1/3 of the world that gets killed? Are they random or targeted? We know the angels doing the killing are at the River Euphrates which is of course at the heart of the Islamic world.
So Trump 5 & 6 are also after the Tribulation is over because the target of both is the Islamic world. So, what of Trumpets 1-4? Are they before or after the Tribulation?
Last edited:
P
Two things
The "scroll" refered to in rev 5 is actually a sheet or document. BiblioN is a small scroll,such as you would see if a large or long list,maybe 3 ft long were rolled up into a cylinder and sealed.
Thus the whole thing could have been "unrolled at once revealing seven very large seals,UNDER WHICH, were the items to be released.
(we could all be kinda off on this) But the idea is not so much the scroll or seals but that it marks and documents the future release BY HEAVEN,NOT SATAN, of all hell breaking loose on the planet.
2) the fact that these horrific events are unleashed BY HEAVEN,UPON MAN AND THE PLANET go against the idea of a trib/wrath delineation,prompting the misnomer that God's wrath is not anywhere to be found in the beginning of the 7 yr trib.
The "scroll" refered to in rev 5 is actually a sheet or document. BiblioN is a small scroll,such as you would see if a large or long list,maybe 3 ft long were rolled up into a cylinder and sealed.
Thus the whole thing could have been "unrolled at once revealing seven very large seals,UNDER WHICH, were the items to be released.
(we could all be kinda off on this) But the idea is not so much the scroll or seals but that it marks and documents the future release BY HEAVEN,NOT SATAN, of all hell breaking loose on the planet.
2) the fact that these horrific events are unleashed BY HEAVEN,UPON MAN AND THE PLANET go against the idea of a trib/wrath delineation,prompting the misnomer that God's wrath is not anywhere to be found in the beginning of the 7 yr trib.
