question about submission
- Thread starter JFSurvivor
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Y
I've come across inflections throughout the bible that speak of marriage, the head of the church, the man and the woman that can be seen. That when they are joined in marriage, they become as one; the same as the church. With Adam and Eve, Adam came first and Eve became the second first; because she was a part of Adam from the beginning. This language speaks of things that can be seen, and things which cannot be seen without the portrayal of physical evidence. A man could not possibly perceive what born again is without the evidence of birth that can be seen. Adam came from law, and Eve came from the fulfillment of law which became the evidence of greater things. But when Eve was deceived, Adam did not speak against the deception and sinned with his eyes wide open. There are many who portray Eve as the one who brought sin into the world, imitating the life language of Adam when he pointed at Eve and said, See what You have given me!" Pretty bold, pointing away from himself, from which Adam possessed. They were one in creation, God separated them, and then joined them as one in the likeness of marriage. I haven't learned how to condense the rest of what I've seen, if a person can touch even the edge of understanding, the significance of marriage takes on a greater understanding. It's a sad thing for a man to say he is the greater part of the marriage; as Adam did when he denied his sin by pointing at Eve. They had died into sin and could no longer stay. Adam bragged about the children that would bring life into the world, not realizing that his own children would be born into the teaching of sin because of a choice he had made. The law of marriage was not spoken before the marriage, but God gave marriage purpose in the spoken law, which became a burden to both Adam and Even; And every marriage even to this day.
Studying the Greek definition listed for the word submit is very important because the NT was written in Greek. Submit = Strong's Number: 5293, Hoop-ot-as'-so. 1 Pe 3:1, Col 3:18, Eph 5:24,Tit 2:5.
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".
Source: Hupotasso - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard
In order to answer that question, we need to study some Biblical wives who were submissive to their husbands: Sarah and Abigail.
According to 1 Pe 3:1-6:
Being quiet isn't just something that wives should do. The Bible teaches that both men and women should lead quiet lives and be slow to speak. Pr 11:12B, 1 Thes 4:9-11, 1 Tim 2: 1-4, Jam 1:19.
The Bible tells us that holy women of the past trusted God. However, it does not say that the holy women of the past trusted their husbands. The Bible warns us about the dangers associated with trusting man: Ps 118:8, Ps 146:3, Is 2:22, Je 17:5, Pr 25:19. However, Pr31:11 tells us that the husband of a virtuous wife can trust her, yet there is no equivalent verse stating that a wife can or should trust her husband.
According to 1 Samuel chapter 25, Abigail ...
When Not to Submit to Your Husband
- to arrange under, to subordinate
- to subject, put in subjection
- to subject one's self, obey
- to yield to one's admonition or advice
- to obey, be subject
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".
Source: Hupotasso - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard
In order to answer that question, we need to study some Biblical wives who were submissive to their husbands: Sarah and Abigail.
According to 1 Pe 3:1-6:
- Sarah was chaste.
- Sarah had the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit.
Being quiet isn't just something that wives should do. The Bible teaches that both men and women should lead quiet lives and be slow to speak. Pr 11:12B, 1 Thes 4:9-11, 1 Tim 2: 1-4, Jam 1:19.
- Sarah was reverent.
- Sarah put her trust in God.
The Bible tells us that holy women of the past trusted God. However, it does not say that the holy women of the past trusted their husbands. The Bible warns us about the dangers associated with trusting man: Ps 118:8, Ps 146:3, Is 2:22, Je 17:5, Pr 25:19. However, Pr31:11 tells us that the husband of a virtuous wife can trust her, yet there is no equivalent verse stating that a wife can or should trust her husband.
- Sarah was obedient to her husband.
According to 1 Samuel chapter 25, Abigail ...
- was intelligent (v. 3).
- the servant sought her help (v. 14-17).
- did what her husband refused to do. She sent food to David and his men (v. 18-19).
- respected and acknowledged David's kingly status when her husband refused to do so (v. 28-30).
- was honest and forthcoming about her husband's poor judgement and bad behavior (v. 25).
- acknowledged God (v. 26, 28, 30).
- reasoned and effectively communicated with David. David recognized and appreciated her good judgement (v. 32-33).
- Nabal roused David's anger (v. 12-14, 21-22), but Abigail appeased it (v. 32-34). The anger of the king is a deadly threat; the wise will try to appease it (Pr 16:14).
- kept David from killing her husband and the other men in their house.
When Not to Submit to Your Husband
Let's look at the Greek definition listed for SUBMIT found in verses 1 Pe 3:1, Col 3:18, Eph 5:24 and Tit 2:5. Strong's Number: 5293, Hoop-ot-as'-so.
If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. Jam 1:5
The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Pr 4:7
The Bible teaches that wisdom is a virtue that BOTH men and women should acquire. In other words, wisdom isn't just for wives striving to be like the Pr 31 woman.
A wise man will listen and increase in learning, and a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel. Pr 1:5
A wise man listens to advice. Pr 12:15B
Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise. Pr 19:20
According to the lexicon, one of the definitions or synonyms for listen (shama 8085) is "to obey, be obedient. Listening (8085) is something EVERYONE should do; husbands aren't exempt. Husbands should listen to (8085 obey) the wisdom of their wives when necessary, and there are examples of that in the Bible.
A virtuous wife "speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue." Pr 31:26
Abraham listened to the wisdom of his wife:
But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. LISTEN (8085) to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned" (Gen 21:12).
Hannah's husband listened to her concerning the vow that she made to the Lord (1 Sam 1:11, 21-23). This is especially relevant since an OT husband could lawfully cancel a vow made by his wife. Hannah's husband didn't do that; he didn't pull rank. Instead, he listened to the wisdom of his wife.
Xerxes listened to Esther's plea about reversing Haman's order to destroy the Jews (Es 8:5,9:13). This is significant because after the king had signed and sealed a decree or given his permission for a decree to be signed and sealed , it was not to be repealed or revoked (Es 3:9-12). However, Xerxes listened to the wisdom of his wife and revoked the decree to kill the Jews.
Nabal was foolish. Proverbs sheds light on that by listing the traits of a foolish person for us:
... fools despise wisdom and instruction (Pr 1:7b).
Don't waste your breath on fools, for they will despise the wisest advice. (Pr 23:9).
We can conclude that the foolish Nabal "despised wisdom and instruction." Nabal's servant even said, "He is such a wicked man that no one can talk to him." 1 Sam 25:17 That's probably why Abigail didn't discuss her plan of action with Nabal beforehand. As a woman with good judgement, she probably understood that Nabal would "despise the wisest advice." Unlike Nabal, David acknowledged and affirmed Abagail's capacity to "speak with wisdom, and faithful instruction." David listened to Abigail and decided not to kill Nabal and the men in his house. Nabal illustrates what can happen when a husband is unapproachable and unwilling to listen to the wisdom of his wife when necessary. (Pr 31:26, 1 Sam 25:32-34).
Listening (defined as obey) to your spouse is a mutual responsiblity in marriage. Listening is not just something that wives should do, and Abraham, Elkanah and Xerxes understood that. Unfortunately, Nabal didn't.
Practical Theology for Women: The Voice of the Helper
As Christians, we are all instructed to yield to one another. Husbands are not exempt or excused from yielding. Husbands and wives should yield to one another.
As Christians, we are all instructed to carry each other's burdens. Husbands and wives should carry each other's burdens.
Submission consists of more that just obedience. Obedience is one characteristic of submission. However, in addition to obedience, submission is also about yielding to another and carrying another's burdens. Submission IS NOT mere obedience, blind obedience or mindless obedience. Wives should not obey sinful commands. Some characteristics of submission such as listening to one another, yielding to one another and carrying one another's burdens are certainly mutual.
- to arrange under, to subordinate
- to subject, put in subjection
- to submit to one's control
- to yield to one's admonition or advice
- to subject one's self, obey
If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. Jam 1:5
The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Pr 4:7
The Bible teaches that wisdom is a virtue that BOTH men and women should acquire. In other words, wisdom isn't just for wives striving to be like the Pr 31 woman.
A wise man will listen and increase in learning, and a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel. Pr 1:5
A wise man listens to advice. Pr 12:15B
Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise. Pr 19:20
According to the lexicon, one of the definitions or synonyms for listen (shama 8085) is "to obey, be obedient. Listening (8085) is something EVERYONE should do; husbands aren't exempt. Husbands should listen to (8085 obey) the wisdom of their wives when necessary, and there are examples of that in the Bible.
A virtuous wife "speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue." Pr 31:26
Abraham listened to the wisdom of his wife:
But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. LISTEN (8085) to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned" (Gen 21:12).
Hannah's husband listened to her concerning the vow that she made to the Lord (1 Sam 1:11, 21-23). This is especially relevant since an OT husband could lawfully cancel a vow made by his wife. Hannah's husband didn't do that; he didn't pull rank. Instead, he listened to the wisdom of his wife.
Xerxes listened to Esther's plea about reversing Haman's order to destroy the Jews (Es 8:5,9:13). This is significant because after the king had signed and sealed a decree or given his permission for a decree to be signed and sealed , it was not to be repealed or revoked (Es 3:9-12). However, Xerxes listened to the wisdom of his wife and revoked the decree to kill the Jews.
Nabal was foolish. Proverbs sheds light on that by listing the traits of a foolish person for us:
... fools despise wisdom and instruction (Pr 1:7b).
Don't waste your breath on fools, for they will despise the wisest advice. (Pr 23:9).
We can conclude that the foolish Nabal "despised wisdom and instruction." Nabal's servant even said, "He is such a wicked man that no one can talk to him." 1 Sam 25:17 That's probably why Abigail didn't discuss her plan of action with Nabal beforehand. As a woman with good judgement, she probably understood that Nabal would "despise the wisest advice." Unlike Nabal, David acknowledged and affirmed Abagail's capacity to "speak with wisdom, and faithful instruction." David listened to Abigail and decided not to kill Nabal and the men in his house. Nabal illustrates what can happen when a husband is unapproachable and unwilling to listen to the wisdom of his wife when necessary. (Pr 31:26, 1 Sam 25:32-34).
Listening (defined as obey) to your spouse is a mutual responsiblity in marriage. Listening is not just something that wives should do, and Abraham, Elkanah and Xerxes understood that. Unfortunately, Nabal didn't.
Practical Theology for Women: The Voice of the Helper
- to yield to one's admonition or advice
As Christians, we are all instructed to yield to one another. Husbands are not exempt or excused from yielding. Husbands and wives should yield to one another.
- Hupotasso is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".
As Christians, we are all instructed to carry each other's burdens. Husbands and wives should carry each other's burdens.
Submission consists of more that just obedience. Obedience is one characteristic of submission. However, in addition to obedience, submission is also about yielding to another and carrying another's burdens. Submission IS NOT mere obedience, blind obedience or mindless obedience. Wives should not obey sinful commands. Some characteristics of submission such as listening to one another, yielding to one another and carrying one another's burdens are certainly mutual.
1.) Men AND women are created in the image of God:
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. ( Gen 1:27)
2.) God created the woman in his image (Gen 1:27) to be a helper for the man:
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." (Ge 2:18).
The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, so it's important to look at the Hebrew definition for Helper.
Helper (5828, Ezer) - help, succour, one who helps, aid.
The Hebrew word for Helper - Ezer is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and several times to refer to God. For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper," he uses the word Ezer." Ps 121:2
Wendy Aslup, author of Practical Theology for Women, explains it this way:
However, that's only one facet of womanhood. Women are born into families and communities. Women are daughters, sisters, extended family members, neighbors and friends before they ever become wives and/or mothers. Some women never marry and/or become mothers.
Theses ladies came from all walks of life: prostitution, unmarried, married, possibly divorced, some had children and some may have been childless. Although they all had different backgrounds, each one of these precious ladies served and HELPED their communities in incredibly significant and noteworthy ways.
In addition to that, Ephesians 2:10 tells us that:
"We are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago."
@ JFSurvivor:
You are God's masterpiece!!! God created you in his image and designed and equipped you to be an Ezer - Helper in your community and for your husband and kids should you ever get married and/or become a mother. There's no shame attached to being an Ezer - Helper because God himself is our Ezer - Helper.
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. ( Gen 1:27)
2.) God created the woman in his image (Gen 1:27) to be a helper for the man:
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." (Ge 2:18).
The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, so it's important to look at the Hebrew definition for Helper.
Helper (5828, Ezer) - help, succour, one who helps, aid.
The Hebrew word for Helper - Ezer is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and several times to refer to God. For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper," he uses the word Ezer." Ps 121:2
Wendy Aslup, author of Practical Theology for Women, explains it this way:
God Himself is called our helper, the same Hebrew word used of the first woman in Genesis 2:18. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is also called our Helper, Counselor, and Comforter (depending on which translation of the Bible you use). These are all translations of the Holy Spirit’s role of paraklete, or one who comes alongside in aid. When we understand God’s role on this issue, it puts this in perspective. God, Almighty Sovereign Lord of the Universe, is our helper, and we, as women, are created in his image. If I hold on to the attitude that being created as a helper is condescending and substandard, I am basically mocking the name of God and His character, for the role of helper is one He willingly embraces.
God our Help defends (Ex. 18:4), cares for the oppressed (Ps. 10:14), delivers from distress (Ps. 70:5), rescues the poor and needy (Ps. 72:12-14), comforts (Ps. 86:17), supports, shields, and protects (Ps. 20:2 and 33:20). God’s example reveals a high and worthy calling for women as helpers suitable to their husbands. We are not glorified maids, butlers, or cooks waiting on an order to perform from a master. This is not God’s example of help at all! We are called to show compassion, support, defend, and protect those in our care. We are called to deliver from distress and to comfort. We are called to be conduits of God’s grace in our homes. We are called to be like Christ. Source: Practical Theology for Women: Keep Calm and Carry On -- Being a Strong Helper after God's Own Heart
Scripture tells us that woman was created as a Helper for man (1 Cor 11:9). God our Help defends (Ex. 18:4), cares for the oppressed (Ps. 10:14), delivers from distress (Ps. 70:5), rescues the poor and needy (Ps. 72:12-14), comforts (Ps. 86:17), supports, shields, and protects (Ps. 20:2 and 33:20). God’s example reveals a high and worthy calling for women as helpers suitable to their husbands. We are not glorified maids, butlers, or cooks waiting on an order to perform from a master. This is not God’s example of help at all! We are called to show compassion, support, defend, and protect those in our care. We are called to deliver from distress and to comfort. We are called to be conduits of God’s grace in our homes. We are called to be like Christ. Source: Practical Theology for Women: Keep Calm and Carry On -- Being a Strong Helper after God's Own Heart
However, that's only one facet of womanhood. Women are born into families and communities. Women are daughters, sisters, extended family members, neighbors and friends before they ever become wives and/or mothers. Some women never marry and/or become mothers.
Theses ladies came from all walks of life: prostitution, unmarried, married, possibly divorced, some had children and some may have been childless. Although they all had different backgrounds, each one of these precious ladies served and HELPED their communities in incredibly significant and noteworthy ways.
Community Helpers:
- Esther was willing to risk her life in order to save the Jews. Book of Esther.
- Huldah was a prophet. King Josiah sought her help via royal messengers because he wanted her to tell him what God had to say about the discovery of the Book of the Law. 2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chronicles 34:22
- Lydia was a Christian and a merchant. She invited and urged Paul and other disciples to stay at her home. She allowed Paul and Silas to use her home for church meetings. Acts 16;12-15, 40 Phil 1:1-10
- Rahab was a prostitute. She hid the Israeli spies and refused to hand them over to her government's officials. She made a bargain with the Israeli spies thath would preserve her life and the lives of her family members. She gave the Israeli spies instructions about where and how to escape. She is part of Jesus' family tree. Her name is listed in the Hebrew hall of faith. Jos 2:1, 3, 6:17-25, Mat 1:5, He 11:31 Jam2:25
- The Midwives feared God and refused to obey the king's evil command. They refused to kill the newborn Hebrew boys. They were pro-lifers. God blessed the midwives and gave them children of their own. Ex 1:15-20
- Dorcas made garments for the widows in her community, and she helped the poor. Acts 9:36-43
- Phoebe was a deacon in the church of Cenchreae. She helped many people, including Apostle Paul. Ro 16:1-2
- Deborah was a judge and prophet in Israel. The Israelis came to her court, so she could decide their disputes. Villages in Israel were deserted, until Deborah arose as a mother for Israel. Judges chapters 4&5
- The Wise Woman of Abel was a skilled negotiator. She took initiative and negotiated a deal with the commander-in-chief of the Israeli army that saved her city from destruction. She was a woman of influence. The people in her community followed her advice concerning the negotiation. 2 Sam 20:16-22
- Women traveled with Jesus and the 12 disciples as they toured the cities and villages of Galilee. Some of those women provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples. Lu 8:1-3
- Anna was a prophet. She had been a widow for many years. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. She was a witness for Christ. Luke 2:36-38
- The Queen of Sheba traveled from a distant land to hear the wisdom of Solomon. The pursuit of wisdom was very important to her. Jesus publicly acknowledged the Queen of Sheba's pursuit and appreciation for wisdom. During her lifetime, she sought the wisest person she knew - Solomon. However, when Jesus came to earth, he was greater than Solomon, but many of the people who encountered him failed to appreciate Christ as the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1 Ki 10:1-13, 2 Chr 9:1-12, Mt 12:42
- Sheerah built the cities of Lower and Upper Beth Horon as well as Uzzen Sheerah. 1 Chr 7:24
- Jehosheba stole Joash away from the rest of the king's children, who were about to be killed. She hid him from the murderous Athaliah for 6 years. Jehosheba risked her life in order to help preserve “The Seed Royal,” for had Joash also perished the line of Judah would have been extinct. 2 Ki 11:2, 2 Chr 22:11
Helpful Wives:
- Priscilla was a tent maker. She co-labored with her husband. She and her husband took Bible teacher Apollos aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. She and her husband allowed others to meet in their home for church service. Acts 18:2, 18, 26 Ro 16:3, 1 Cor 16:19
- Zipporah saved her husband's life when the Lord was about to kill him. Ex 4:24
Helpful Mothers:
- Mary the Mother of Jesus - Mat 1; 2; 12:46; Luk 1; 2; Joh 2:1-11; 19:25; Ac 1:14
- A faithful Canaanite Mother cried out to Jesus to heal her demon-possessed daughter. Because of the mother's faith, Jesus healed her daughter. Mt 15:21-28.
- Rufus' mother had been a mother to the Apostle Paul, too. She wasn't his biological mother, but she evidently showed him motherly kindness. Ro 16:13
- Timothy's grandmom Lois and mom Eunice were Christians, and they trained Timothy to have faith in God. Acts 16:1, 2 Tim 1:5
- Jochebed hid Moses for three months when he was born. She refused to drown her son in the river like the king ordered. Jochebed and her husband are listed in the Hebrew hall of faith. Ex 2:1-10, He 11:23
- Bathsheba followed the prophet Nathan's wise advice and did what she had to do in order to save her own life and the life of her son Solomon. She went to King David and reminded him about what God had said concerning Solomon being the next king. 1 Ki 1:11-35
- Hannah was barren. She prayed to God for a son. She made a vow to dedicate that son to God. She took her son to the Tabernacle and left him there permanently. Samuel was raised there, and he grew up to be a great prophet of God. 1 Samuel 1; 2:1, 21
Conclusion: What's good about being a woman?
Ezer - Helper is one of God's roles and names. God created his daughters in his own image and designed us to be Ezer - Helpers too.
In addition to that, Ephesians 2:10 tells us that:
"We are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago."
@ JFSurvivor:
You are God's masterpiece!!! God created you in his image and designed and equipped you to be an Ezer - Helper in your community and for your husband and kids should you ever get married and/or become a mother. There's no shame attached to being an Ezer - Helper because God himself is our Ezer - Helper.
This has NOTHING to do with subjugating women or disparaging them in any way!
It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with intelligence or ability! It is about accountability! God wants male leadership because PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES. When those mistakes are made, God wants a man to take the heat instead of putting the responsibility to give account on a woman.
Just as we all depend on Jesus to pay the penalty for our sin on our behalf; wives are privileged to depend on their husbands to take upon themselves the chastisement for their errors. Any husband who attempts to lord over his wife and display his power completely misunderstands the intent of Scripture!
It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with intelligence or ability! It is about accountability! God wants male leadership because PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES. When those mistakes are made, God wants a man to take the heat instead of putting the responsibility to give account on a woman.
Just as we all depend on Jesus to pay the penalty for our sin on our behalf; wives are privileged to depend on their husbands to take upon themselves the chastisement for their errors. Any husband who attempts to lord over his wife and display his power completely misunderstands the intent of Scripture!
A
"Nearly everyone believes that we have merely modified our marriage based family structure to include an exception for the child support model. The truth is the opposite.
We didn’t modify our marriage based family structure to allow an exception for the child support model, we replaced the marriage model with the child support model and created a very limited exception for marriage.
The overarching goal of the new system is to empower women who use the government as a way to control men, then they complain that men don’t want much to do with them. It’s a vicious cycle but one that most women are okay with."
Is Imprisoning Men for Child Support a Way for the Government to Destroy Traditional Marriage? | Dr. Helen
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/...e-an-essential-tool-of-our-new-public-policy/
We didn’t modify our marriage based family structure to allow an exception for the child support model, we replaced the marriage model with the child support model and created a very limited exception for marriage.
The overarching goal of the new system is to empower women who use the government as a way to control men, then they complain that men don’t want much to do with them. It’s a vicious cycle but one that most women are okay with."
Is Imprisoning Men for Child Support a Way for the Government to Destroy Traditional Marriage? | Dr. Helen
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/...e-an-essential-tool-of-our-new-public-policy/
the over-arching model in society all around the world (as written in EPHESIANS)
is men submitting to the prince of the power of the air, WILLINGLY! (and unwittingly at the same time)
instead of submitting to yahweh and HIS WORD;
also instead of seeking HIS WORD, seeking yahweh, seeking truth,
because seeking HIS WORD, seeking yahweh, seeking truth, IS NOT POPULAR and men who do are imprisoned,
beaten,
tortured,
their families tortured and murdered in front of their eyes
before they themselves are either murdered or imprisoned,
persecuted,
and so on.... THAT IS ONE reason submitting to yahweh is so rare and some or most here have never seen it or never recognized it if they did see it. as it is written, 'when someone comes in their own name (or almost any kind of cause instead of the GOSPEL OF JESUS/the WORK OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN) , they are readily accepted... ' (almost everywhere)....
is men submitting to the prince of the power of the air, WILLINGLY! (and unwittingly at the same time)
instead of submitting to yahweh and HIS WORD;
also instead of seeking HIS WORD, seeking yahweh, seeking truth,
because seeking HIS WORD, seeking yahweh, seeking truth, IS NOT POPULAR and men who do are imprisoned,
beaten,
tortured,
their families tortured and murdered in front of their eyes
before they themselves are either murdered or imprisoned,
persecuted,
and so on.... THAT IS ONE reason submitting to yahweh is so rare and some or most here have never seen it or never recognized it if they did see it. as it is written, 'when someone comes in their own name (or almost any kind of cause instead of the GOSPEL OF JESUS/the WORK OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN) , they are readily accepted... ' (almost everywhere)....
Not quite. . .
"God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him (singular).
Male and female he created them (plural). (Ge 1:27)
Not quite. . .
"Man is the image and glory of God (1 Co 11:7). . .
the woman is the glory of man (1 Co 11:7). . .created for man, came from man, in his image. . .
and being the image of man, who is the image of God, woman is the image of God.
The same thing that is good about being a man, she is likewise the image of God because she is the glory of the man who is the image of God.
Is there anything more for the godly woman to desire than God's holy order of creation?
"God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him (singular).
Male and female he created them (plural). (Ge 1:27)
Not quite. . .
"Man is the image and glory of God (1 Co 11:7). . .
the woman is the glory of man (1 Co 11:7). . .created for man, came from man, in his image. . .
and being the image of man, who is the image of God, woman is the image of God.
The same thing that is good about being a man, she is likewise the image of God because she is the glory of the man who is the image of God.
Is there anything more for the godly woman to desire than God's holy order of creation?
Last edited:
I Corinthians 11 also points out that men come from women. We have to be born. All of us are 'pro-created' and none of us are the original creation.
But woman is still the glory of man, and man is made in the image of God. We are interdependent, but yes there is an order as revealed in creation and in other scripture.
But woman is still the glory of man, and man is made in the image of God. We are interdependent, but yes there is an order as revealed in creation and in other scripture.
"There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." -Galatians 3:28
"Then God said, 'Let us make human beings in our image to be like us. They will reign over the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock and all the wild animals on the Earth and all the small animals that scurry along the ground.' So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." -Genesis 1:26-27
You make it sound like women are less important and less valuable than men. Do you really think it's true? I'm almost debating on leaving this forum because being made in the image of God is not a small thing. God is perfect. Man is flawed. So you're saying that men are made in the image of this perfect loving being and women are made from this evil vile sinful being? That's not ok. If that's true then my life is worthless; utter garbage. I AM GARBAGE IF THAT IS TRUE!
"Then God said, 'Let us make human beings in our image to be like us. They will reign over the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock and all the wild animals on the Earth and all the small animals that scurry along the ground.' So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." -Genesis 1:26-27
You make it sound like women are less important and less valuable than men. Do you really think it's true? I'm almost debating on leaving this forum because being made in the image of God is not a small thing. God is perfect. Man is flawed. So you're saying that men are made in the image of this perfect loving being and women are made from this evil vile sinful being? That's not ok. If that's true then my life is worthless; utter garbage. I AM GARBAGE IF THAT IS TRUE!
JSSurvivor, let's look at the truth of what God's Word says about women in the Old Testament. There is a strong case to be made for God's creation - woman! First, the word man in Hebrew - Adam. It also includes the woman, as the male gender in Hebrew is inclusive of both genders. It only later became the name for the first man.
However, looking more specifically at the woman, she is a special creation by God.
"Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a suitable helper for him.” Gen. 2:18
The word "suitable helper" here, really downplays the significance of the words in Hebrew. The word for "suitable" is Kenegdo in Hebrew. Kenegdo suggests that what God creates for Adam will correspond to him. Thus, the new creation will be neither a superior nor inferior, but an equal. This creation will form one- half of a polarity, and will be to the man as the South Pole is to the North Pole. She will be his strongest ally in pursuing God's purposes and his first roadblock when he veers off course.
The word used here for "helper" is ezer or עֵזֶר This word appears in the Old Testament 21 times. Twice it refers to the woman in Gen. 2:18, 20, and three times for nations to whom Israel appealed for military aid (Isaiah 30:5, Ezekiel 12:14, and Daniel 11:34.
The other 16 times, the word ezer is used for God as Israel's helper.
Ex. 18:4
Deut. 33:7, 26, 29
Psalms 20:2; 33:20; 70:5, 89:19; 115:9, 10, 11; 121:1-2; 124:8; 146;5,
Hosea 13:9
In all these verses, ezer is used consistently in a military context. Israel seeks military aid from her neighbors.God is his people's "shield and defense," "better than chariots and horses," standing "sentry over his people."
Even Eden fits this pattern, because in fact, the idyllic Garden of Eden was a war zone. The command to rule and subdue put God's image bearers on high alert that fierce resistance lay ahead. God commanded the man to keep, or guard the garden suing the same military language later used for the cherubim who guarded the garden with a flaming sword. The reason, of course, is that a power Enemy was plotting an attack.
Putting all the facts together, it is obvious that the ezer is a warrior. God created his daughters to be ezer-warriors with our brothers. God deploys the ezer to break the man's aloneness by soldiering with him wholeheartedly and at full strength for God's gracious kingdom. The man needs everything she brings to their global mission.
The strength God brings as ezer to his people should be sufficient to convince us that as ezers we must be strong, resourceful and alert to the cries of the needy and the oppressed.
Of course, other passages confirm this interpretation. Both Ruth and the Proverbs 31 woman are called "women of valour" (hayil) Paul rallies ALL believers in Eph. 6:10-17 to "put on the whole armour of God."
Thinking of the ezer as a warrior, is entirely consistent with how Scripture views women.
All this patriarchal nonsense is based on a few proof texts written to churches which needed a lot of correction, because of the issues going on. Better to look at the original language and word usage throughout the whole Bible, to realize the fact that women are both awesome and equal, rather than these misogynist descriptions which picture a woman as dependent, needy, helpless, leaderless or weak.
The ezer is a warrior, and she is also God's creative masterpiece - a work of genius and a marvel to behold, for she is fearfully and wonderfully made. God did not create the woman to bring half of herself to his global commission, nor to minimize herself when the man is around. Her creation was not necessary if God was only planning for her to do things the man was perfectly capable of doing for himself or didn't need - like feeding himself in the Garden.
If Adam must think, decide, protect and provide for the woman, she actually becomes a burden on him, not much help when you think about it. The kind of help the man needs demands full deployment of her strength, her gifts, and the best she has to offer. His life will change for the better, because of what she contributes to his life.
As a daughter of the King, I love the idea that I am to follow in the Father's strong footsteps by soldering alongside our brothers and his kingdom. A name like ezer gives us a lot to live up to no matter who we are or where we live.
However, looking more specifically at the woman, she is a special creation by God.
"Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a suitable helper for him.” Gen. 2:18
The word "suitable helper" here, really downplays the significance of the words in Hebrew. The word for "suitable" is Kenegdo in Hebrew. Kenegdo suggests that what God creates for Adam will correspond to him. Thus, the new creation will be neither a superior nor inferior, but an equal. This creation will form one- half of a polarity, and will be to the man as the South Pole is to the North Pole. She will be his strongest ally in pursuing God's purposes and his first roadblock when he veers off course.
The word used here for "helper" is ezer or עֵזֶר This word appears in the Old Testament 21 times. Twice it refers to the woman in Gen. 2:18, 20, and three times for nations to whom Israel appealed for military aid (Isaiah 30:5, Ezekiel 12:14, and Daniel 11:34.
The other 16 times, the word ezer is used for God as Israel's helper.
Ex. 18:4
Deut. 33:7, 26, 29
Psalms 20:2; 33:20; 70:5, 89:19; 115:9, 10, 11; 121:1-2; 124:8; 146;5,
Hosea 13:9
In all these verses, ezer is used consistently in a military context. Israel seeks military aid from her neighbors.God is his people's "shield and defense," "better than chariots and horses," standing "sentry over his people."
Even Eden fits this pattern, because in fact, the idyllic Garden of Eden was a war zone. The command to rule and subdue put God's image bearers on high alert that fierce resistance lay ahead. God commanded the man to keep, or guard the garden suing the same military language later used for the cherubim who guarded the garden with a flaming sword. The reason, of course, is that a power Enemy was plotting an attack.
Putting all the facts together, it is obvious that the ezer is a warrior. God created his daughters to be ezer-warriors with our brothers. God deploys the ezer to break the man's aloneness by soldiering with him wholeheartedly and at full strength for God's gracious kingdom. The man needs everything she brings to their global mission.
The strength God brings as ezer to his people should be sufficient to convince us that as ezers we must be strong, resourceful and alert to the cries of the needy and the oppressed.
Of course, other passages confirm this interpretation. Both Ruth and the Proverbs 31 woman are called "women of valour" (hayil) Paul rallies ALL believers in Eph. 6:10-17 to "put on the whole armour of God."
Thinking of the ezer as a warrior, is entirely consistent with how Scripture views women.
All this patriarchal nonsense is based on a few proof texts written to churches which needed a lot of correction, because of the issues going on. Better to look at the original language and word usage throughout the whole Bible, to realize the fact that women are both awesome and equal, rather than these misogynist descriptions which picture a woman as dependent, needy, helpless, leaderless or weak.
The ezer is a warrior, and she is also God's creative masterpiece - a work of genius and a marvel to behold, for she is fearfully and wonderfully made. God did not create the woman to bring half of herself to his global commission, nor to minimize herself when the man is around. Her creation was not necessary if God was only planning for her to do things the man was perfectly capable of doing for himself or didn't need - like feeding himself in the Garden.
If Adam must think, decide, protect and provide for the woman, she actually becomes a burden on him, not much help when you think about it. The kind of help the man needs demands full deployment of her strength, her gifts, and the best she has to offer. His life will change for the better, because of what she contributes to his life.
As a daughter of the King, I love the idea that I am to follow in the Father's strong footsteps by soldering alongside our brothers and his kingdom. A name like ezer gives us a lot to live up to no matter who we are or where we live.
OK so then what are the guys? If they aren't helpers then what are they? I hate the idea of being a "helper" because as nice as you made it sound it's still sounds like women are the glorified sidekick to the warriors of God. I don't see how that is fair. I want to be worth just as much as a man in the church, on earth and especially in Gods eyes. A lot of times when people post stuff like how women are helpers or women weren't made in the image of God it makes it sound like we are less valuable not only in the church but in Gods eyes. I know the verse that says all are one in Christ so then why aren't we acting like it? Why is there this need for women to submit? Why can't we all really be equal in Christ and submit to each other? :'(
First, WOMEN are the warriors. EZER is the word which is badly translated "helper" or "helpmeet." We are the warriors whom God has chosen to fight against the darkness with the men. Second, as I have already said, the word "submit" is a voluntary "coming under." It does not mean obey. There are also some concessions to Roman household codes, for the sake of the gospel.
In other words, this supposed "order" of creation, did not exist until AFTER the fall (ie, man ruling over woman) and since Christ has restored us, although creation may not be perfect, God now has us, as image bearers and redeemed people to as equal with one another. The household codes were to be a witness to the churches of those times, to win more people to Christ, not to place woman in subservient roles for eternity.
Finally, the complementarians do ignore a crucial verse regarding submitting to one another.
"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21
I think you need to go back and re-read carefully the posts I have made and Proverbs 35, and put these other people on ignore. And trust God, that he does care, and he is not making you a sidekick, but a warrior.
In other words, this supposed "order" of creation, did not exist until AFTER the fall (ie, man ruling over woman) and since Christ has restored us, although creation may not be perfect, God now has us, as image bearers and redeemed people to as equal with one another. The household codes were to be a witness to the churches of those times, to win more people to Christ, not to place woman in subservient roles for eternity.
Finally, the complementarians do ignore a crucial verse regarding submitting to one another.
"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21
I think you need to go back and re-read carefully the posts I have made and Proverbs 35, and put these other people on ignore. And trust God, that he does care, and he is not making you a sidekick, but a warrior.
Thank you. It can just get very frustrating and hurtful when people post stuff about how women are to come in second to men. And it sucks even more because i get confused over who is right all the time because the people who are bashing women usually are very...assertive and their tone is "if you don't submit you're not a good woman" and I desperately want to be a good godly woman however when I get in to the mindset that I have to submit to a husband I just think about how God must hate women and how him creating me must have been a cruel joke if I'm simply meant to submit.
I will definitely put them on ignore!
(how do you do that on here?)
also what does it mean to "voluntarily come under"?
I will definitely put them on ignore!
(how do you do that on here?) also what does it mean to "voluntarily come under"?