When does the rapture occur?

[SilverFanng]

Mat 24;40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

1)you guys are in NO WAY looking for the groom.

2) under your method of interpretation the word would read "watchout for I am coming to kill the one sleeping next to you and its no surprise,just add 7 yrs to AC's revealing"

One taken,one left is the rapture. This is a game changer how you guys get so creative and jettison the obvious.
If you would just keep reading ,you would see the verses that testify against your doctrine;

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;.......
Mat 25;13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

It is beyond rediculous that you guys are forbidden to read the pretrib rapture verses.

Sorry but all that last part means is no one knows the exact time he comes. Since I think we both agree on that it does nothing to prove either of us wrong or right. Also it's the verses before the "one shall be taken" section that says as it was in the days of Noah so will it be in the last days with sinners everywhere unremoursful of their actions and they were all "taken away" for their sins.

 

[VCO]

Sorry but all that last part means is no one knows the exact time he comes. Since I think we both agree on that it does nothing to prove either of us wrong or right. Also it's the verses before the "one shall be taken" section that says as it was in the days of Noah so will it be in the last days with sinners everywhere unremoursful of their actions and they were all "taken away" for their sins.

☝t<><

Sorry, but it really means if you are not ready when the Son of man comes for HIS BRIDE - the Assembly He has built, you will be left behind. He will come for us, the Holy Spirit in us is our Betrothal Gift, assuring us HE will come to steal His Bride away to go to the Wedding in New Dwelling Place He has built for us in His Father's House:

"Like a Thief in the Night" IS how a Jewish Bridegroom comes to Steal His Bride Away.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

HIS SECOND COMING IS NOT LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, BECAUSE WORLD'S ARMIES HAVE TIME TO GATHER IN THE VALLEY OF MEGIDDO TO TRY TO STOP HIM FROM RECLAIMING THE EARTH.

Revelation 19:19 (NIV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.

NOT FAST IN A SINGLE NIGHT LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT.

Two different Events:

The Calling Out of the Bride, unexpectedly and FAST in a single night perhaps a single hour, and those on the opposite side of the earth being in daylight.

HIS Second Coming, expectedly and SLOW enough for the World's Armies to gather.

Luke 17:34-36 (NKJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
[SUP]36 [/SUP] Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

 

[Chrysolite]

2 Thessalonians 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

---

The falling away will only happen when the beast will take his throne in the third temple of Jerusalem and claim himself as God. A lot of people including Christians will be deceived because they thought that this is Christ and that he has returned.

 

[SilverFanng]

1 Thessalonians 5:9 is a reference to the judgement day at the end of the millenium. Also the artwork doesn't really work in a debate at all. Just saying.

 

[VCO]

Ya know, it is remarkable that it is mainly only in America where many of these endtime "revelations" are so rabidly devoured as the very bread of life.... and Amrica is barely out of diapers, compared to the rest of the world.

Here are some facts that may make your theory difficult to FLY.

However, the United States still tops the chart by far in terms of total missionaries, sending 127,000 in 2010 compared to the 34,000 sent by No. 2-ranked Brazil.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/july/missionaries-countries-sent-received-csgc-gordon-conwell.html

The United States sent out 127,000 of the world's estimated 400,000 missionaries abroad in 2010, according to Todd Johnson, director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/20/us-missionary-massachusetts-idUSTRE81J0ZD20120220

According to Wikipedia, I found 39 Baptist Seminaries, and 46 Non-Denominational Evangelical Seminaries; and that is not even counting the Charismatics and the Pentecostals. ALL of the those, I suspect DO BELIEVE AND TEACH A PRE-TRIB CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, THE CHURCH.

You say "barely out of diapers"; and I say, "Better educated and more motivated to actually serve the Lord."

 

[Pumicestone]

You say "barely out of diapers"; and I say, "Better educated and more motivated to actually serve the Lord."

American Schools vs. the World: Expensive, Unequal, Bad at Math - The Atlantic
The U.S. education system is mediocre compared to the rest of the world, according to an international ranking of OECD countries."


"more motivated to actually serve the Lord" ?
Does that include the carnage they 'served' to the Vietnamese, Laotions, Cambodians and a host of others ?
Does it include the slaughter inflicted on women, children and babies as the bombs rained down on residential Baghdad ?

 

[VCO]

American Schools vs. the World: Expensive, Unequal, Bad at Math - The Atlantic
The U.S. education system is mediocre compared to the rest of the world, according to an international ranking of OECD countries."


"more motivated to actually serve the Lord" ?
Does that include the carnage they 'served' to the Vietnamese, Laotions, Cambodians and a host of others ?
Does it include the slaughter inflicted on women, children and babies as the bombs rained down on residential Baghdad ?

I was talking about U.S. Seminaries that ordain Evangelical Pastors and Missionaries, and you know it.

 

[GaryA]

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, { ☜ two separate events} we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition,

Not two separate events --- the 'grammar of the language' shows you that it is one event being "discussed"...


2 Thessalonians 2:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


A better understanding of the relationship between the word 'beseech' and the two words 'by' would be beneficial...

The two phrases 'by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' and 'by our gathering together unto him' refer to the same 'event' -- which is, in the next verse, referred to as 'the day of Christ'.

The phrase 'that day' refers back to 'the day of Christ'.

 

[GaryA]

HIS SECOND COMING IS NOT LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, BECAUSE WORLD'S ARMIES HAVE TIME TO GATHER IN THE VALLEY OF MEGIDDO TO TRY TO STOP HIM FROM RECLAIMING THE EARTH.

Armageddon occurs after the Second Coming of Christ ( after He appears ). This means that your statement is moot. Jesus can still come "like a thief in the night" ( when He first appears ).

 

[RickyZ]

I am FULLY CONVINCED the falling away comes FIRST, HIS Appearing with the Archangel Calling us OUT to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven comes after that, AND the Second Coming happens Seven Years later when HE comes to set up HIS 1000 YEAR Earthly Kingdom.
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, { ☜ two separate events} we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition,

If the coming of the Lord and our gathering are two different events, wouldn't verse 3 read those days will not come until... ?

Not two separate events --- the 'grammar of the language' shows you that it is one event being "discussed"...


2 Thessalonians 2:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


A better understanding of the relationship between the word 'beseech' and the two words 'by' would be beneficial...

The two phrases 'by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' and 'by our gathering together unto him' refer to the same 'event' -- which is, in the next verse, referred to as 'the day of Christ'.

The phrase 'that day' refers back to 'the day of Christ'.

This is right, they are both part of one event, but it doesn't all happen simultaneously. In the Old days, when a dignitary was traveling a long ways to come visit, you would go out to his camp on their last night of travel to welcome them and escort them on the last leg of their journey back to your home. There would obviously be celebration at that camp. Christ's return will be the same. Our being caught up to greet and escort Him as He returns to earth will include a celebration... the marriage feast of the Lamb. That ceremony will indeed consume some time, so when we are caught up and when we return to earth with Him will not occur at the same time - but they will be all part of one event.

God says we'll see judgment, the trumpets and seals are judgments, I have no reason to believe we won't see this part of the tribulation. But God also says we will be spared His wrath, the bowls/vials are called wrath, so I have no reason to believe we will see these things happening. My take is that we are here for the first 3.5 years, are then caught up, party in heaven while the world suffers the next 3.5 years, then return to earth for the millennium. I see no reason to expect anything else.

I literally mean NO ONE can shake me off of my Beliefs, because I am that FULLY CONVINCED of the Absolute TRUTH in what I teach

Well, there's your Achilles heal. Wanna know why I'm so certain of my beliefs? Because I test and challenge them all the time. Sometimes end up modifying or changing them when it warrants. Truth isn't a hill that you hold like a Marine, it's a mountain that you climb every day. And the only way you know you have a good handhold on the face is to test it. The day you say you're willing to test your beliefs is the day your beliefs gain legitimacy.

As it says below...

 

[valiant]

If the coming of the Lord and our gathering are two different events, wouldn't verse 3 read those days will not come until... ?



This is right, they are both part of one event, but it doesn't all happen simultaneously. In the Old days, when a dignitary was traveling a long ways to come visit, you would go out to his camp on their last night of travel to welcome them and escort them on the last leg of their journey back to your home. There would obviously be celebration at that camp. Christ's return will be the same. Our being caught up to greet and escort Him as He returns to earth will include a celebration... the marriage feast of the Lamb. That ceremony will indeed consume some time, so when we are caught up and when we return to earth with Him will not occur at the same time - but they will be all part of one event.

God says we'll see judgment, the trumpets and seals are judgments, I have no reason to believe we won't see this part of the tribulation. But God also says we will be spared His wrath, the bowls/vials are called wrath, so I have no reason to believe we will see these things happening. My take is that we are here for the first 3.5 years, are then caught up, party in heaven while the world suffers the next 3.5 years, then return to earth for the millennium. I see no reason to expect anything else.



Well, there's your Achilles heal. Wanna know why I'm so certain of my beliefs? Because I test and challenge them all the time. Sometimes end up modifying or changing them when it warrants. Truth isn't a hill that you hold like a Marine, it's a mountain that you climb every day. And the only way you know you have a good handhold on the face is to test it. The day you say you're willing to test your beliefs is the day your beliefs gain legitimacy.

As it says below...

Its a good job God has you guys to guide Him or He might not know what to do next LOL

But He must be baffled which to choose.

In my view you are all wrong We are in great tribulation for many saints now, and Christ will come when He decides, there is nothing in the way of His coming. then we will all enter the everlasting kingdom

 

[SilverFanng]

Its a good job God has you guys to guide Him or He might not know what to do next LOL

But He must be baffled which to choose.

In my view you are all wrong We are in great tribulation for many saints now, and Christ will come when He decides, there is nothing in the way of His coming. then we will all enter the everlasting kingdom

That's not quite accurate. The two witnesses must be here for the tribulation to be present. They haven't begun their ministry yet because the bible is very specific that it will not rain during the entirety of their mission.

 

[PlainWord]

Uh,you conviently left out the only rapture reference

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Your theory directly contrdicts this. BEFORE THR FLOOD???? Show me anything Postflood/post GT in the noah story.

'One taken,one left' (cue Postribs creativity here)

All you did was affirm the second coming at the end of the gt.which pretribs also believe

Popeye, my dear fellow.

The above provides further detail to the Second Coming, not the (Pre-Trib) Rapture. The Flood and the Trib are not the comparative concepts the Lord was using. Christ likens His RETURN to the FLOOD. When Christ returns (His one and only Second Coming Return) He will send out the angels to gather the tares out from among the wheat and remove them from the Kingdom. The tares are false believers who have been growing alongside the wheat. This fact is shown here if you had not stopped short.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The hypocrites are like the Pharisees in Christ's day. They attend church with us and appear righteous but inside they are fake and they undermine the Kingdom. When Christ comes, He comes to reign in Jerusalem and He reigns over all the nations. Everything that is wicked within Israel's new boundaries will be removed leaving only the righteous behind. The above passage ties perfectly with the below from Mat 13.

[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Again, Christ's physical Kingdom will be right here on earth. He removes all things that offend. He then gathers the wheat into the barn (Israel). Nobody is being snatched off the planet and transported to heaven!! Do you have an ear to hear???? Not everybody does.

 

[valiant]

That's not quite accurate. The two witnesses must be here for the tribulation to be present. They haven't begun their ministry yet because the bible is very specific that it will not rain during the entirety of their mission.

But if the two witnesses are the church leadership then the tribulation could be taking place now and indeed has been for a long time. As for your argument from rain. It does not say that they will curtail the rain for three and a half years. It merely says they have power to do so if they wish. It is paralleling the experience of Elijah's ministry from which the idea of three and a half years comes. In other words they have the powers of Elijah, just as James said Christians had (James 5.16-18).

 

[JesusIsAll]

Here are some facts that may make your theory difficult to FLY.

According to Wikipedia, I found 39 Baptist Seminaries, and 46 Non-Denominational Evangelical Seminaries; and that is not even counting the Charismatics and the Pentecostals. ALL of the those, I suspect DO BELIEVE AND TEACH A PRE-TRIB CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, THE CHURCH.

You say "barely out of diapers"; and I say, "Better educated and more motivated to actually serve the Lord."

This is the problem, classic of you pre-tribbers. You invoke scores of theologians, with doctorates in theology, who live and breath scripture their entire lives, hence the mistake you make. Everybody knows the only truth to be found is from trolls on the web. Just think about it a minute. On the one hand, you have seminarians, on the other hand the likes of this thread, well qualified posters who can stand on this, "I don't know anything about the Bible, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."

 

[PlainWord]

Full Blown Apostasy wont Happen until He that Lets is removed... when that happens, then the Man of Sin will be revealed... you see the foreshadowing of the Apostasy today as those elements or pieces of the 'sandy foundation' man will use to 'proclaim his/her laodicean apostate gospel to the masses.. that which included the egypt like work ethic in building the Kingdom of heaven on this earth without Christ Returning as foretold.. also the sodom like atmosphere as it is fornicating in its spiritual presentation of a 'false christ like ' image.. man made.. the core of the foundation for the Harlot of Rev 17 that will come to full apostate state and power during Daniels 70th week. will be the use of Pharmaceutical behavior meds to 'control and image' many into that 'image' of christ that Whore portrays... this Gentile Whore, which will take the world by storm in the 'name of christ'.. taking that fruit of the Garden, ye shall become as 'gods' knowing good and evil.'... that full blown 'lie' wont come to full power until He that Lets is removed.. that has not happened .. you see the foreshadowing of that today.. plus when the Hour of Temptation, the Hour of Trial, to try them that dwell on this earth, those trapped in that.. will be sent a strong delusion from Heaven.. to believe the lie.. the overturning of the natural law of creation, male +female= offspring.. that will be in full effect ... as homosexuality is allowed by the Harlot, a laodicean/dna gospel heralded as 'truth'...------ the use of Pharmaceutical drugs to mold and conform the masses, Witchcraft-Sorcery, -----false signs and wonders performed, -----supernatural peace between Israel and her enemies.. the world will wonder and rejoice after the man that brings this.. lolz.. oh little do they know.. wow.. those Here after He that lets is removed, wont know they are even in Daniels 70th week, because most of them will be apostasized.. minds conscience seared, with a lie, and they will believe it.. they wont really know anything is going on , until the 2 Witnesses begin their testimony and witness to the world, the man of sin and his prophet, and the Whore of Revelation 17... plus those who begin to be CONVERTED by the Messengers sent out by the LORD during this time frame.. those who teach there is no 'rapture' confuse the timing of it.. say were are in the tribulation and great tribulation already.. either add to that Book or take away from that Book.. dangerous ground.. most of these who argue and teach about something different, will be SWALLOWED up by the Hour of Trial or Temptation, caught in it. and will go on to be outstanding members in the Coming GReat Whore of Revelation 17, that false apostate bride that attempts to create heaven on earth, its own Eden, because they have taken the fruit , the serpent offered to them, 'ye shall be as gods knowing good and evi'.. the LAST LIE OR DELUSION on this planet Prior To Christ's literal return, will be the 'same' lie satan offered Eve in the Original Garden, back at the beginning... one thing prior to His Coming for His Bride, spotless, the Good Seed, these will be so repugnant and offensive to the 'tares-weeds', those whose gospel is mixed, perverted, and sodomized... that when the Good Seed is GONE.. they will rejoice.. but then their peace and safety, the tares.. its short lived.. then sudden destruction cometh upon them!

I like some of what you said. The "Falling Away" will not be completed until "He that Letteth is Taken Away," true. At this time, the Man of Sin will be revealed. There is a "Mystery of Lawlessness" already at work. It has been at work since and before Paul's day as Paul teaches. So we agree on some things...

But here's where we disagree. The "Gentile Whore" as you call it, will not take the world by storm in the name of Christ. Rather, in the Name of Allah. The Great False Religion which is already taken the world by storm is Islam. Islam is the "Anti" Christianity.

ISLAM, QURAN AND 666

Islam has taken over 1/4 of the world and we see this at the fourth seal. It is Islam that deceives the Nations. It is Islam that Beheads. Islam is represented in virtually every single country but they of course dominate all the countries that surround Israel. Islam has infiltrated every country already and they are attempting to establish Sharia Law in 232 nations and are succeeding in various degrees. They use fear and intimidation by threats of death to anyone who speaks out against them.

Remember, the Man of Sin does not come claiming to be Christ or God (although many will say that He is), he comes stating that he is above all called God.

Dan 11:

“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished...

2 Thes 2:

...so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Many Christians will think he is Christ finally come to "rapture" them. Most Muslims will think he is the Mahdi. What he really is, is Satan.

The "Rapture" of 1 Thes 4 has nothing to do with the Tribulation era. It happens on the Last Day of earth. It isn't even Christ who is returning there, it is the Father. It is GOD bringing those who sleep in Jesus. Everyone wants to gloss over this fact and associate it with the Return of Christ, but Christ is already here reigning.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

 

[PlainWord]

PlainWord you SHOCK ME, I thought you believed in the DEITY of CHRIST.

2 Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

NO, I will never agree with your non pre-trib understandings, because I am FULLY CONVINCED the falling away comes FIRST, HIS Appearing with the Archangel Calling us OUT to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven comes after that, AND the Second Coming happens Seven Years later when HE comes to set up HIS 1000 YEAR Earthly Kingdom. I literally mean NO ONE can shake me off of my Beliefs, because I am that FULLY CONVINCED of the Absolute TRUTH in what I teach.

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, { ☜ two separate events} we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition,

Why is it that you would question my belief in the Deity of Christ??? To doubt a Pre-Trib Return of Christ that is not taught anywhere in the Bible does not equate to not believing in the Deity of Christ.

I accept the fact that you will never change your false views VCO. But that doesn't mean that I should give up on you and the others who have been lead away with false doctrine. I used to believe as you do and I know how powerful the strong delusion is. But I stick with it out of love and hope that one day I will say something that will open your eyes to the truth.

 

[PlainWord]

Your post commands a response. OOPS? Is a response allowed?

You just gave us a skewed group of verses,leaving out the subject of the op,"the rapture"

You COULD HAVE included those verses,which implore us (that do not know the hour of the rapture,therefore watch and wait NOW,not 7 yrs after the white horse fake messiah appears) to watch for a surprise coming.

The word, "Harpazo" is not found in Mat 24 and neither are the words, "caught up." Why is that?

ANSWER: There is no "catching up" when Christ returns. The angels are sent out to first remove the wicked, then to gather the wheat into the barn.

 

[SilverFanng]

But if the two witnesses are the church leadership then the tribulation could be taking place now and indeed has been for a long time. As for your argument from rain. It does not say that they will curtail the rain for three and a half years. It merely says they have power to do so if they wish. It is paralleling the experience of Elijah's ministry from which the idea of three and a half years comes. In other words they have the powers of Elijah, just as James said Christians had (James 5.16-18).

Elijah would have held back the rain for as long as it took to get through to Israel but they never did. Eventually God had to implore to Elijah asking him to let it rain again for him to let up.

Revelation 11:6
These two have the power to close up the sky so that it does not rain during the time they are prophesying.*

if they can do that I doubt it's the church leaders. Next time ask your head pastor/priest if they can stop rain from falling or turn water to blood.

 

[valiant]

This is the problem, classic of you pre-tribbers. You invoke scores of theologians, with doctorates in theology, who live and breath scripture their entire lives, hence the mistake you make. Everybody knows the only truth to be found is from trolls on the web. Just think about it a minute. On the one hand, you have seminarians, on the other hand the likes of this thread, well qualified posters who can stand on this, "I don't know anything about the Bible, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."

well there are equally hundreds of theologians who are not pretribbers. you are simply referring to a group who get together and say. 'we all say so, so it must be true', But the majority of scholars are not pre-tribbers. especially the real scholars !!