The curse of the law

[Bowhunter2394]

Blessings and cursings are attained by our actions.
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sorry, but your fruit is manifested.. you have a works salvation.... you talk about 'christ' yet you place the emphasis on your performance.. no.. it is Finished! sorry

 

[Elin]

The will of myself is imperfect and ruled by the Law of Satan's dominance over me. But the law is there that says God's Spirit rules over Him that rules over me...so If I am in Him, God, I am not ruled by the Dark one, but ruled by God. yet ruled. A slave to sin turned to a slave to righteousness. Anything that is ruled by me...is a lie...for nothing is ruled by me. Except my ability to chose...and that neither Spirit controls ultimately..influences greatly yes..rules no..So If we say we will live on humanism and not Satan or God rule we are lying to ourself. Satan would rule that position. Only our will choosing God will be ruled by God so we need to chose to be there and not leave.
If sin weren't still judged by Christians what would be the point of all the scripture pertaining to it?

Well, I'm thinkin' to keep from being disciplined by the Father (which ain't no fun) to keep one from wriggling out of his hand.

Where am I free from sins rule? Only one place always.....In Christ. Ok, I think I have said the same thing in different ways for an hour I hope this runs in line with your thinking Let me know if it doesn't.

I'm thinkin' maybe it doesn't. . .which is okay. . .because I'm sure you've considered it all thoroughly to come to your conclusion.

 

[Grandpa]

Salvation is truly a blessing unearned by us, and only through Christ. Blessings and cursings are attained by our actions.

That's what Salvation is about. Abiding in Christ. Abiding in His Blessing. Salvation shows us that He blesses us and our actions don't.

All the blessings are in One Place. They are NOT attained by your actions. They are not even attained. They are given.

Don't you see that your two statements are contradictory?

We are responsible to continue in righteousness after being born again by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ our Savior. The instructions in righteousness are written in the Old Testament where we find the Torah instructions. "All scripture (New Testament had not been written yet) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

There is a NEW MINISTRATION now. It is not of the letter, not of death or condemnation. It is of the Spirit and it is Life and Liberty.

The New Testament hadn't been written yet??? That verse is in the New Testament. Do you realize how silly your argument is?

Was the law a curse, or was Jesus crucified to destroy sin that would bring a curse?

The law is a curse to us. Death is a curse to us. Condemnation is a curse to us. Sin is a curse to us.

The Lord Jesus Christ gives us a NEW and Living Way.

But if you go back to your written instructions in your torah you place yourself back under the curse. There is only One place to be blessed. There is only One place for Salvation. Going back to the curse isn't obedience. Its being stiff-necked and disobedient.

Otherwise we would all be going to Synagogues and there would be no Christianity. We would all just pretend we are blessed by our Actions and Christs work was way back in the past somewhere to help Judaism prosper.

Colossians 2:13-15
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[Elin]

That's what Salvation is about. Abiding in Christ. Abiding in His Blessing. Salvation shows us that He blesses us and our actions don't.

All the blessings are in One Place. They are NOT attained by your actions. They are not even attained. They are given.

Don't you see that your two statements are contradictory?

All of God's promises of blessing are shut up in Christ( 2Co 1:20), received in Christ, and nowhere else.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

There is a NEW MINISTRATION now. It is not of the letter, not of death or condemnation.
It is of the Spirit and it is Life and Liberty.

The New Testament hadn't been written yet??? That verse is in the New Testament. Do you realize how silly your argument is?

The law is a curse to us. Death is a curse to us. Condemnation is a curse to us. Sin is a curse to us.

The Lord Jesus Christ gives us a NEW and Living Way.

But if you go back to your written instructions in your torah you place yourself back under the curse.
There is only One place to be blessed.
There is only One place for Salvation.
Going back to the curse isn't obedience. Its being stiff-necked and disobedient.

Otherwise we would all be going to Synagogues and there would be no Christianity. We would all just pretend we are blessed by our Actions and Christs work was way back in the past somewhere to help Judaism prosper.

Colossians 2:13-15
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

One does not WORK FOR THEIR BLESSINGS. those Flow thru the Tree and Christ Where He gave Himself, Freely Given, to those Who are in Him..

One does not lose their Blessing because they may have had a weak moment in Faith..

If We Believe not, YET He abideth Faithful, for He cannot deny Himself...

one says I have faith, the other says I have works,

I will show you My Faith by my works..

these Works Ordained by the FAther, that He ordained for the Convert.. before time and dirt were created.. that he/she should walk in them. and they are BASED on His Promises.. indeed.. not the work of man keeping himself/herself, and working so that he/she wont lose/ or did enough good to 'get' that promise..

God is ABLE TO KEEP HIS OWN, and He is Able to see His Promises Thru to His own Children. indeed.. His Elect and even those His Future Elect.. as He fulfills His goodness for their lives, and He will Reveal this Unmerited Goodness, to those Future Elect, when He draws them and Saves them.. for they were His From the Very beginning!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

God reveals His Promise to His Own kids.. you receive this in your Heart, His Word of Promise.. then He calls you to step out in Faith, as you see Him Work that Promise to Its Fulfillment, knowing that He is the One who brought it to pass.. You LEANED ON HIM, took the heat persay, as you were tested, faced the tempter face to face as he came at you 'questioning' the Promise of God, 'hath God really said"? lolz. most of those and if not all who Step out in
Genuine Faith in the LORD, will be mocked and persecuted by the children of the flesh. because they are dead in sin(unbelief) and trespasses.. as they Watch you STep out in Faith in the Promise of God.. God is Good and God is Great.. oh the Glory of the Tree and Appeasement.. all Blessing Flow thru Him and that Act!

 

[Elin]

"But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed." John 7:49

Galatians 3:10-13
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The question is: did the law hang on a tree, or did Jesus hang on a tree?

Eph 2:15 answers your question:

"abolishing in his flesh (on the tree) the law with its commandments and regulations."

Jesus hung on a tree, thereby "hanging (abolishing) the law on the tree" with him.

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Romans 7:12

Indeed it is. . .no one said otherwise. . .the law was not the problem, the curse of the law was the problem.

Was the law a curse, or was Jesus crucified to destroy sin that would bring a curse?

"Curse of the law" is not the same as "the law is a curse."

Subtle diversion? . . .

 

[just-me]

If a person cannot recognize judgment, mercy, and faith in the law, they are totally missing what the law represents.

 

[slave]

Okay. . .but when Jesus says his sheep (the born again) shall never perish because no one can snatch them from his hand or the Father's hand (Jn 10:28-29),
are you sure the sheep are strong enough to wriggle themselves out of Jesus' and the Father's hand?
Would the Father not discipline his son to keep that from happening, to keep him from "falling" out fatally?

Would the born again thereby become unborn. . .again?

Tell me, no. . .or are we on different sides of the Scriptures here. . .which as you know have only one side, all in harmony with themselves.

I am not Calvinistic in my belief, I do not believe in.. once saved always saved....REGARDLESS OF WHAT I DO FROM THERE!

But let me explain my belief in Scripture a new way, I do not believe that we need to keep a record of the sins one by one to see oh, this hour I am in heaven,,and Oh Oh, this minute I am out. This is not the peace of complete victory.

We are saved by faith, ok, well faith is the heart of choice. What I am saying scripture tells us is this One sin will not send me to hell after being found in Him, thru grace and His forgiveness... Yet, It is not inevitable for us to have to sin either, for sin has has been conquered by Jesus, and we are found in Him IF we remain in Him. So what I am saying is we can lose our Salvation despite grace if when Jesus points out our wrong ways and we say no to Him from our heart, That no, turns to another no, which turns to another no.... we can find ourselves having backslide into sins slavery. This is the heed of God's warnings and my belief. If we do this we will not have Jesus representing us any longer, and God will have to judge us for that willful denial of ownership.Grace is the buffer zone to our will going forward with Him, a continual NO is the will's rebellion of God's will, leaving us unable to relationship with the Father in that victory setting.

 

[slave]

If God says, Pick up your cross daily and follow me, why would He need to say that if we were never to be in need for correction of the heart or actions, found in the eternal Heaven guaranteed by God thru Christ? You have said basically -- my concerns of my heart, and the deployments of my actions are without need to be directed anywhere. I have a free pass now, It is up to me to do as I please. God tells me His wants but I am in charge now of the ultimate decision...


...............YIKES!

 

[Jeff_56]

If God says, Pick up your cross daily and follow me, why would He need to say that if we were never to be in need for correction of the heart or actions, found in the eternal Heaven guaranteed by God thru Christ? You have said basically -- my concerns of my heart, and the deployments of my actions are without need to be directed anywhere. I have a free pass now, It is up to me to do as I please. God tells me His wants but I am in charge now of the ultimate decision...


...............YIKES!

you have probably read proverbs through, hopefully several times.

a wise man seeks and loves correction, and takes criticism to heart(to test,in prayer,with God),
over and over and over again.

even receiving rebukes or accepting them, as if GOD-SENT, and with a single eye toward GOD to SEE HIS WAY as soon as HE PERMITS.

yahweh's spirit teaches the truth about all things,

to very few people. (to every one that JESUS said

 

[slave]

I look at the Story of Lucifer...The bible describes him as once being almost God...in the same statement saying he was not equal to God. Yet, the almost part is very powerful stuff. He was God's right hand angel. So for him wouldn't victory also be guaranteed? But Scripture doesn't get into too much detail over the details of Satan and Himself other than to say he one day was found to have rebellion in him. Rebellion is the turning of our hearts from God, And we know from scripture from the heart go our feet. The only thing God could do was to kick him out. The same is true in us, our heart dictates policy to the rest of what we do. It is the heart of us found in Him that is our condition to the victory Jesus procured on a cross, the only condition, for it is nothing we can do, or, did do, that merits it...If we willfully continue to turn to sin, God has no other recourse but to place you back in the pool of sins outcome... It's like getting grades in school, I could never get even one A but Christ get's nothing but A's...In the same way, once I live in the regular A's experience it is a little harder to get F's then because I must take the success I know and leap to get the F's...pull myself away from the A's...and strive then for the F's with earnestness. You see when our heart is in Christ, we sometimes hear Him say sitting next to us in school, 1 plus one is two, and as sheep and not perfect we say ok and turn and write down 1 plus one is 12. He looks at us and says, "no, do you trust me?" and you say, "of coarse, Lord, I do." He then pulls out His eraser and erases your mistake and actually writes the correct answer for you as you see your hands move on the paper. Your trust has set the right answer before you. Found in Christ. Just an example, but you can see my point.

You see we are seen where our heart is placed by the fruit of our lives, in the whereabouts in the placement of our hearts. Faith without works is dead, meaning we can't help but do what God gives us to do because our roots grow what he's dishing..[ this is why He can judge us based on what we did and did not do, for it is He that accomplishes it].and He dishes the fruit. But the heart is key. For if we are found with rebellion, that lingers and sets forth a demand to God of it's purpose to leave Him, He has no choice, but to let you go. Yes, no one can touch you when you stand against the devil, but ONLY WHEN YOU DECIDE TO ABIDE IN HIM>, DAILY<> AND CONSISTENTLY!< grace irons out the track record, and God takes on your battles,but you must place yourself in Him or that guarantee is not valid.

 

[slave]

you have probably read proverbs through, hopefully several times.

a wise man seeks and loves correction, and takes criticism to heart(to test,in prayer,with God),
over and over and over again.

even receiving rebukes or accepting them, as if GOD-SENT, and with a single eye toward GOD to SEE HIS WAY as soon as HE PERMITS.

yahweh's spirit teaches the truth about all things,

to very few people. (to every one that JESUS said

I do love correction, the yikes is from a religion based on the the conclusions mentioned in the statement not with Elin, I have faith in her...completely, for I have faith in her heart found in Christ, and I have faith in Him. What I do question is the Spirit of people that lead by condemnation statements of others laying an anchor on their spirit, rather than recovery, Satan is the accuser of believers. Revelations 12:10.

"Those whom I dearly and tenderly love, I tell their faults and convict and discipline,......." Rev. 3:19.

Conviction has a different tone of voice than condemnation!

 

[slave]

you have probably read proverbs through, hopefully several times.

a wise man seeks and loves correction, and takes criticism to heart(to test,in prayer,with God),
over and over and over again.

even receiving rebukes or accepting them, as if GOD-SENT, and with a single eye toward GOD to SEE HIS WAY as soon as HE PERMITS.

yahweh's spirit teaches the truth about all things,

to very few people. (to every one that JESUS said

If you feel the Spirit of God leading you to correct me, state the area of correction, I have no problem with that. But do not leave me your hidden judgement in my lap saying a Godly scripture, for in that there is no room to reconcile, and it becomes slanderous in it's left message. [Condemnation].... I don't say this with anger just correction.

 

[Grandpa]

If a person cannot recognize judgment, mercy, and faith in the law, they are totally missing what the law represents.

I really like picking on the things you say. The way you view the law is the way I view the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you think Paul missed what the Law represents?

Galatians 3:11-14
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Do you ever wonder about the Lord Jesus Christ? I sure do, all the time. Do you think that He calls us to fulfill the Law the way He did in the gospel, in the flesh? Or do you think that He causes us to walk in His Statutes by His Holy Spirit? Think about Matt 11:28 for a moment...


Iamsoandso used to say "I am in the midst of loving you". I always thought that was a pretty cool thing to say. But not me. Christ.

 

[just-me]

I really like picking on the things you say. The way you view the law is the way I view the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you think Paul missed what the Law represents?

Galatians 3:11-14
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Do you ever wonder about the Lord Jesus Christ? I sure do, all the time. Do you think that He calls us to fulfill the Law the way He did in the gospel, in the flesh? Or do you think that He causes us to walk in His Statutes by His Holy Spirit? Think about Matt 11:28 for a moment...


Iamsoandso used to say "I am in the midst of loving you". I always thought that was a pretty cool thing to say. But not me. Christ.

What I highlighted in your statement is what I believe. Concerning what you quoted of me are the words of Jesus given to the hypocritical Pharisees. Matthew 23:23 The Holy Spirit was given to cause us to remember what Jesus taught, so the Word and the Holy Spirit work in co-ordination with one another with the Father in Heaven.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[just-me]

Do you think Paul missed what the Law represents?

Galatians 3:11-14
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

My thoughts on verse 12 that I highlighted. The law is not made by faith. That is Paul's conclusion. Whoever will do the things that are written in it will live by it. (Matthew 4:4) Not living by it will bring a curse, so Jesus redeemed those of us who believe in Him, and His redemptive power by faith. We are saved by this hope. Hebrews 11:1 Without faith, the law can only be seen as a physical application. With faith the law can be observed by its Spiritual intent in which it was given, for the One who gave it is a Spirit, and we must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)

There is an old testament truth concerning faith (Habakkuk 2:3) which comes first if one is to receive the promise of God which is eternal life though Christ Jesus. Faith establishes the law, but the law isn't made by faith. That's why the "works of the law" alone cannot justify anyone.

the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:3b
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

 

[Elin]

Okay. . .but when Jesus says his sheep (the born again) shall never perish because no one can snatch them from his hand or the Father's hand (Jn 10:28-29),
are you sure the sheep are strong enough to wriggle themselves out of Jesus' and the Father's hand?
Would the Father not discipline his son to keep that from happening, to keep him from "falling" out fatally?

Would the born again thereby become unborn. . .again?

Tell me, no. . .or are we on different sides of the Scriptures here. . .which as you know have only one side, all in harmony with themselves.

I am not Calvinistic in my belief,

Glad to hear that. . .because Calvin didnt' write the NT.

And neither am I, Scripture is my authority.

do not believe in.. once saved always saved....REGARDLESS OF WHAT I DO FROM THERE!

I understand what you are saying.

I also understand the Scriptures to show that the Holy Spirit within all the the born again disposes/inclines the sons of God away from "regardless of what I do from there!" And for his sons who do not obey, God brings them back into obedience through a heart-purifiying discipline which transforms their hearts to him, so that by the power of God they are kept in sonship.

But let me explain my belief in Scripture a new way, I do not believe that we need to keep a record of the sins one by one to see oh, this hour I am in heaven,,and Oh Oh, this minute I am out. This is not the peace of complete victory.

We are saved by faith, ok, well faith is the heart of choice. What I am saying scripture tells us is this One sin will not send me to hell after being found in Him, thru grace and His forgiveness... Yet,
It is not inevitable for us to have to sin either, for sin has has been conquered by Jesus, and we are found in Him IF we remain in Him.

But doesn't Jn 1:8-10 disagree with that?

So what I am saying is we can lose our Salvation despite grace if when Jesus points out our wrong ways and we say no to Him from our heart, That no, turns to another no, which turns to another no.... we can find ourselves having backslide into sins slavery. This is the heed of God's warnings and my belief.

But doesn't the NT show that God will discipline his sheep in a way that keeps them from returning to sin's slavery over them, in a heart-purifying process that causes them to come back into obedience?

If we do this we will not have Jesus representing us any longer,

But is Jesus our representative, or are we one with him in the two-in-one-enfleshment of the marital union of Christ and his wife/bride, the church (Eph 5:29-32)?

and God will have to judge us for that willful denial of ownership.

I see Scripture teaching that the born again son of God, in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union of Christ and his church, does not and cannot willfully deny the Christ with whom he is one, because it is so contrary to his transformed heart.
I also see Scripture teaching that God will, in a heart-purifying process, discipline those sons whose hearts are in need of it to bring them back into obedience.
For God is looser to no man, including his disobedient son.
God looses none of his own (Jn 10:28-29).

I do not think you are not allowing for counterfeit faith which has no root (Lk 8:13) of rebirth, or false profession of faith (1Jn 2:19) which is not sonship. These are the ones that return to the slavery of sin.
The sons of God do not.

Grace is the buffer zone to our will going forward with Him, a continual NO is the will's rebellion of God's will, leaving us unable to relationship with the Father in that victory setting.

I see the NT as teaching that grace is the power which keeps us in sonship, that God looses none of his own.

Sure wish you could see it too.

 

[Elin]

If God says, Pick up your cross daily and follow me, why would He need to say that if we were never to be in need for correction of the heart or actions, found in the eternal Heaven guaranteed by God thru Christ? You have said basically -- my concerns of my heart, and the deployments of my actions are without need to be directed anywhere. I have a free pass now, It is up to me to do as I please. God tells me His wants but I am in charge now of the ultimate decision...


...............YIKES!

Ya' talkin' to me?

Did I fail to mention God's discipline of his sons to purify their hearts?

 

[Elin]

Glad to hear that. . .because Calvin didnt' write the NT.

And neither am I, Scripture is my authority.


I understand what you are saying.

I also understand the Scriptures to show that the Holy Spirit within all the the born again disposes/inclines the sons of God away from "regardless of what I do from there!" And for his sons who do not obey, God brings them back into obedience through a heart-purifiying discipline which transforms their hearts to him, so that by the power of God they are kept in sonship.


But doesn't Jn 1:8-10 disagree with that?


But doesn't the NT show that God will discipline his sheep in a way that keeps them from returning to sin's slavery over them, in a heart-purifying process that causes them to come back into obedience?


But is Jesus our representative, or are we one with him in the two-in-one-enfleshment of the marital union of Christ and his wife/bride, the church (Eph 5:29-32)?


I see Scripture teaching that the born again son of God, in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union of Christ and his church, does not and cannot willfully deny the Christ with whom he is one, because it is so contrary to his transformed heart.
I also see Scripture teaching that God will, in a heart-purifying process, discipline those sons whose hearts are in need of it to bring them back into obedience.
For God is looser to no man, including his disobedient son.
God looses none of his own (Jn 10:28-29).

I do not think you are not allowing for counterfeit faith which has no root (Lk 8:13) of rebirth, or false profession of faith (1Jn 2:19) which is not sonship. These are the ones that return to the slavery of sin.
The sons of God do not.

I see the NT as teaching that grace is the power which keeps us in sonship, that God looses none of his own.

Sure wish you could see it too.

Make that: For God "loses" none of his own,

and make that: "I think" you are not allowing for counterfeit faith.