When does the rapture occur?

[valiant]

Elijah would have held back the rain for as long as it took to get through to Israel but they never did. Eventually God had to implore to Elijah asking him to let it rain again for him to let up.

Now I know you're mad LOL God did not have to implore Elijah to do anything. It was God Who gave instructions to Elijah. (1 kings 18.1)

if they can do that I doubt it's the church leaders. Next time ask your head pastor/priest if they can stop rain from falling or turn water to blood.

yep my Shepherd can do all that with no difficulty. He told me that all that I had to do if I wanted to move a mountain was have faith. After that rain and water into blood isn't difficult. So I have that power. All I have to do is use it Or don't you believe Jesus?

What He was saying was that all God's power was at their disposal.

 

[RickyZ]

Its a good job God has you guys to guide Him or He might not know what to do next LOL

But He must be baffled which to choose.

In my view you are all wrong We are in great tribulation for many saints now, and Christ will come when He decides, there is nothing in the way of His coming. then we will all enter the everlasting kingdom

See, now that is exactly what I was talking about in the last paragraph. You don't understand what you read because you allow your rigid unyielding beliefs to color what you read, whether it be from us or the Bible. If you truly were after the truth, you would understand and consider opposing arguments, even if you subsequently don't believe them. But you just summarily misinterpret and write things off. That is why you will never possess the whole truth.

 

[valiant]

See, now that is exactly what I was talking about in the last paragraph. You don't understand what you read because you allow your rigid unyielding beliefs to color what you read, whether it be from us or the Bible. If you truly were after the truth, you would understand and consider opposing arguments, even if you subsequently don't believe them. But you just summarily misinterpret and write things off. That is why you will never possess the whole truth.

LOL I once wrote a published book supporting pretribulation millennialism before the Holy Spirit made me face up to how wrong it was. So you cannot accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about. But gradually I recognised the huge assumptions I was having to accept, the way I had to twist Greek to support it, and how it resulted from a distorted view of God's revelation. Then I began to accept Scripture as God meant it to be seen

 

[PlainWord]

well there are equally hundreds of theologians who are not pretribbers. you are simply referring to a group who get together and say. 'we all say so, so it must be true', But the majority of scholars are not pre-tribbers. especially the real scholars !!

Well Said!! Interestingly, if you look at all the hymns from the 1800s before Darby's Rapture doctrine started spreading through the churches in America, you will not find one mention of any Pre-Trib timing for the Lord's return. Any time the Lord's return is mentioned in those hymns, it is always about His triumphant return at the Second Coming, His vengeance return. So, why would the Saints of the 1800s and early 1900s be looking forward to the Second Coming if they thought the Lord was coming to take them earlier in some secret Fly Away and Run return? No, these guys were ready to fight, not flee. They were ready to meet the Lord and avenge their brothers and sisters who died for their faith. They recognized Satan would be on earth with tremendous evil going on (the Great Tribulation). These are the themes of the below songs from the 1800s.

[h=1]It Is Well with My Soul, Horatio G. Spafford, 1873[/h]
And Lord, haste the day when the faith shall be sight,
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend,
Even so, it is well with my soul.

"The Battle Hymn of the Republic", Julia Ward Howe November 1861

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:His truth is marching on.
He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,He is Wisdom to the mighty, He is Succour to the brave,So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,Our God is marching on.

[h=1]Onward, Christian Soldiers[/h] The United Methodist Hymnal Number 575
Text: Sabine Baring-Gould, 1834-1924
Music: Arthur S. Sullivan, 1842-1900

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
with the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
forward into battle see his banners go!
Refrain:
Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
with the cross of Jesus going on before.

2. At the sign of triumph Satan's host doth flee;
on then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell's foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
brothers, lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.

 

[SilverFanng]

Now I know you're mad LOL God did not have to implore Elijah to do anything. It was God Who gave instructions to Elijah. (1 kings 18.1)





yep my Shepherd can do all that with no difficulty. He told me that all that I had to do if I wanted to move a mountain was have faith. After that rain and water into blood isn't difficult. So I have that power. All I have to do is use it Or don't you believe Jesus?

What He was saying was that all God's power was at their disposal.

I admit I may have misread how God and Elijah end the long drought.

As for the two witnesses, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree until God himself proves one of us right.

 

[PlainWord]

[h=1]WHEN THE ROLL IS CALLED UP YONDER[/h]Words & Music: James M. Black, 1893

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more,
And the morning breaks, eternal, bright and fair;
When the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

Refrain
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll is called up yonder I’ll be there.
On that bright and cloudless morning when the dead in Christ shall rise,
And the glory of His resurrection share;
When His chosen ones shall gather to their home beyond the skies,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

Refrain
Let us labor for the Master from the dawn till setting sun,
Let us talk of all His wondrous love and care;
Then when all of life is over, and our work on earth is done,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

Time Shall Be No More???
Dead in Christ Shall Rise???
When all of life is over???

Clearly, not before the Tribulation. Second Coming all the Way!!

 

[PlainWord]

[h=1]My Hope is Built on Nothing Less[/h]Author: Edward Mote (1834)

4 When he shall come with trumpet sound,
O may I then in him be found,
dressed in his righteousness alone,
faultless to stand before the throne.

Talking about Judgment, not rapture with a waiting period in heaven then a return to earth.

 

[PlainWord]

[h=1]JESUS IS COMING AGAIN[/h]Words: Jessie E. Strout, 1872.

Lift up the trumpet, and loud let it ring:
Jesus is coming again!
Cheer up, ye pilgrims, be joyful and sing:
Jesus is coming again!
Refrain
Coming again, coming again,
Jesus is coming again!
Echo it, hilltops; proclaim it, ye plains:
Jesus is coming again!
Coming in glory, the Lamb that was slain;
Jesus is coming again!
Refrain
Heavings of earth, tell the vast, wondering throng:
Jesus is coming again!
Tempests and whirlwinds, the anthem prolong;
Jesus is coming again!
Refrain
Nations are angry—by this we do know
Jesus is coming again!
Knowledge increases; men run to and fro;
Jesus is coming again!

Again, why keep writing songs about an event none of them would be here for if they believed in an earlier rapture??? Huh VCO and others???

 

[JesusIsAll]

That a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
The medicine go down, the medicine go down
Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
In a most delightful way

This wasn't inspired, either.

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. Ephrem the Syrian, 306-373 AD

 

[valiant]

That a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
The medicine go down, the medicine go down
Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
In a most delightful way

This wasn't inspired, either.

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. Ephrem the Syrian, 306-373 AD

LOL the prophet was talking to people who had the wrong idea of the Day of the LORD, that is the day when God deals in judgment with His people. It is not even certain that he had the final day of the LORD in mind. There were many days of the Lord throughout scripture.

Show me one Scripture that clearly says that the people of God will be snatched away before the Great Tribulation. You can't because your great tribulation is not Scriptural. And please don't insult me with Rev 3.10.

This idea that God is totally taken up with a period at the end of the ages is simply unscriptural.

 

[VCO]

Armageddon occurs after the Second Coming of Christ ( after He appears ). This means that your statement is moot. Jesus can still come "like a thief in the night" ( when He first appears ).

Gary your reasoning, creates contradictions. Believe whatever you want Gary, as for me and my house, we will believe what the Bible SAYS:


Zechariah 14:1-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

THAT IS THE SECOND COMING and the Armies are there waiting for HIM!

Matthew 26:64 (HCSB)
[SUP]64 [/SUP] “You have said it,” Jesus told him. “But I tell you, in the future you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power {after the Rapture} and coming on the clouds of heaven.” {A HIS Second Coming.}

TWO SEPARATE EVENTS!

 

[SilverFanng]

VCO, I'm sorry I have to be the one to tell you this, but the man who believes himself to have all the answers believes himself to be God incarnate, whether he knows this of himself or not. Your arguments make less and less sense each time and now you are effectively stomping your foot and saying "meh, I'm right and anybody who disagrees couldn't possibly know anything I don't already."

I'm not trolling you. I'm trying to show you love. You must realize how much you are sounding like the pharasies(spelling?). I am more than willing to admit when I am wrong but I need a good debate and maybe some proof (proof is optional however) first.

God bless, and may all truths, no matter what they are, find their way into your heart.

 

[SilverFanng]

On another note, you at least are correct that the verse you posted is the second coming. That does not prove the rapture one way or the other. But the bible does point to a physical kingdom of God with the Capitol city being larger than the state of Texas descending to the earth.

 

[popeye]

Sorry but all that last part means is no one knows the exact time he comes. Since I think we both agree on that it does nothing to prove either of us wrong or right. Also it's the verses before the "one shall be taken" section that says as it was in the days of Noah so will it be in the last days with sinners everywhere unremoursful of their actions and they were all "taken away" for their sins.

So,IOW,the wicked are taken first,correct?

 

[popeye]

VCO, I'm sorry I have to be the one to tell you this, but the man who believes himself to have all the answers believes himself to be God incarnate, whether he knows this of himself or not. Your arguments make less and less sense each time and now you are effectively stomping your foot and saying "meh, I'm right and anybody who disagrees couldn't possibly know anything I don't already."

I'm not trolling you. I'm trying to show you love. You must realize how much you are sounding like the pharasies(spelling?). I am more than willing to admit when I am wrong but I need a good debate and maybe some proof (proof is optional however) first.

God bless, and may all truths, no matter what they are, find their way into your heart.

God bless, and may all truths, no matter what they are, find their way into your heart.

Could you,since you act like you command knowledge and understanding of escatology,show us one postrib rapture verse?

 

[popeye]

That a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
The medicine go down, the medicine go down
Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
In a most delightful way

This wasn't inspired, either.

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. Ephrem the Syrian, 306-373 AD

Not only are they wrong historically,they have been shown they are wrong and still persist.

The only way historical belief could be a reliable ruler would be if the early church was 100% right.

THEY WEREN'T. Therefore this ruler invites deception.Funny how they pull a "rabbit trail" out of a dusty bag thinking it has signifigance.

 

[VCO]

VCO, I'm sorry I have to be the one to tell you this, but the man who believes himself to have all the answers believes himself to be God incarnate, whether he knows this of himself or not. Your arguments make less and less sense each time and now you are effectively stomping your foot and saying "meh, I'm right and anybody who disagrees couldn't possibly know anything I don't already."

I'm not trolling you. I'm trying to show you love. You must realize how much you are sounding like the pharasies(spelling?). I am more than willing to admit when I am wrong but I need a good debate and maybe some proof (proof is optional however) first.

God bless, and may all truths, no matter what they are, find their way into your heart.

SilverFanng, who is teaching you these twisted Opinions and false Ideas like NEVER being able discern Truth from Error for sure?

FYI: I was born again, the Last week of 1977. The means I have had the Holy Spirit in me as my Teacher for a very long time. I have put my beliefs and the teachings of those who TAUGHT ME, to the test of Scripture a LONG TIME AGO. The Holy Spirit HIMSELF has convinced me that I have believed the TRUTH about the Calling Out of the Bride as far back as in the 80s, and the Holy Scriptures have also CONFIRMED IT AS TRUTH. I have grown Spiritually Mature, over the Years, and I have LONG since left that immature spiritual age where I am tossed too and fro by every wind of Doctrine. YES because of HE who is in me, I have that kind of confidence that I have believed TRUTH.

Ephesians 4:11-15 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--


1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
John 14:26 (ISV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of all that I have told you.

Hebrews 5:14 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food is for the mature—for those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1-2 (GW)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] With this in mind, we should stop going over the elementary truths about Christ and move on to topics for more mature people. We shouldn't repeat the basics about turning away from the useless things we did and the basics about faith in God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] We shouldn't repeat the basic teachings about such things as baptisms, setting people apart for holy tasks, dead people coming back to life, and eternal judgment.

So why am I here? IT CERTAINLY IS NOT TO TEST MY BELIEFS, NOR IS IT TO EXAMINE YOUR BELIEFS TO SEE IF THE HOLY SPIRIT LET ME STUMBLE INTO ERROR. I am here to present what we really BELIEVE, and show how we support it Biblically, so that younger Believers will not be tossed to and fro by false Doctrine. It does not matter much to me if you reject every word that I post. I post for those who want to read and are encouraged by the Doctrines explained correctly. I pray for Spiritual guidance every time I prepare a post. HE gets all the credit, I am just the bus boy punching the keys.

For those who are encouraged by this Evangelical teaching of HIS Calling Out of HIS BRIDE, I request that we pray for one another, to continue to proclaim the TRUTH, accurately and BOLDY:

Ephesians 6:18-20 (ESV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.

 

[popeye]

LOL I once wrote a published book supporting pretribulation millennialism before the Holy Spirit made me face up to how wrong it was. So you cannot accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about. But gradually I recognised the huge assumptions I was having to accept, the way I had to twist Greek to support it, and how it resulted from a distorted view of God's revelation. Then I began to accept Scripture as God meant it to be seen

Show me the greek twisted.

So,you are led of God? IOW,your position on endtimes is exclusive of scripture interpreted by the body of christ?
You do realise,if you invoke infallability (as you are 100% led of God) and your mind is basically bypassed due to the "leading" of God himself,then you are not debatable.

Anyone here can do that also. "God showed me,therefore to go against me is to go against God"

".....before the Holy Spirit made me face up to how wrong it was..........But gradually I recognised the huge assumptions I was having to accept.............I began to accept Scripture as God meant it to be seen"

More accurately,the huge assumption that God works exclusivly and only through the prsism that happens to be the one against your eyeball.

 

[popeye]

LOL the prophet was talking to people who had the wrong idea of the Day of the LORD, that is the day when God deals in judgment with His people. It is not even certain that he had the final day of the LORD in mind. There were many days of the Lord throughout scripture.

Show me one Scripture that clearly says that the people of God will be snatched away before the Great Tribulation. You can't because your great tribulation is not Scriptural. And please don't insult me with Rev 3.10.

This idea that God is totally taken up with a period at the end of the ages is simply unscriptural.

The OT patriarchs are ALREADY in heaven,raised from the dead at the resurrection of Jesus.

The wedding,Groom/bride dimension is in heaven. According to postrib,NO TRIBULATION SAINT ever,ever sees heaven as you guys invented the mid air uturn,back to earth.

To top it off the AC beheads all christians during the GT.
Postrib rapture is impossible.

 

[popeye]

WHEN THE ROLL IS CALLED UP YONDER

Words & Music: James M. Black, 1893

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more,
And the morning breaks, eternal, bright and fair;
When the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

Refrain
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll is called up yonder I’ll be there.
On that bright and cloudless morning when the dead in Christ shall rise,
And the glory of His resurrection share;
When His chosen ones shall gather to their home beyond the skies,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

Refrain
Let us labor for the Master from the dawn till setting sun,
Let us talk of all His wondrous love and care;
Then when all of life is over, and our work on earth is done,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

Time Shall Be No More???
Dead in Christ Shall Rise???
When all of life is over???

Clearly, not before the Tribulation. Second Coming all the Way!!

When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll, is called up yon-der,
When the roll is called up yonder I’ll be there.
On that bright and cloudless morning when the dead in Christ shall rise,
And the glory of His resurrection share;
When His chosen ones shall gather to their home beyond the skies,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

UH,not really,according to postribs,they DO NOT make it to heaven. (the invented uturn in the sky,remember)

You are contradicting yourself ..........once again