When does the rapture occur?

[SilverFanng]

My gosh, I am sooooooo sorry for posting so much. I don't mean to sound arrogant so I will clarify my beliefs in a streamlined description.

I don't believe there will be a "rapture". I DO believe there will be an ascension into heaven AFTER the two witnesses die and the seventh trumpet sounds. The seals placed on the 144,000 Israelites will protect the true believers from God's wrath. Whether they are literally Israelites or merely a representation of the church is yet to be seen. After some time passes after the resurrection and ascension the battle of Armageddon will commenced as Christ will lead everyone who ascended in the first resurrection back on Earth and destroy all wickedness on and in the Earth.

 

[valiant]

But we will recognize the season.

LOL we were definitely in the season 70 years ago. We were wrong

 

[valiant]

Honestly, I think we're just doing as Christ commanded and sharpening ourselves as steel against steel. These debates and discussions are just making our faith stronger and correcting where it is we were wrong.

well we can all agree with that. what I think is foolish is for someone to suggest that somehow the Holy Spirit has led them into guaranteed truth, so that everyone else is wrong.

 

[SilverFanng]

LOL we were definitely in the season 70 years ago. We were wrong

Don't forget that a season is a long period of time. Just keep counting the birth pains until spiritual labor.

 

[SilverFanng]

well we can all agree with that. what I think is foolish is for someone to suggest that somehow the Holy Spirit has led them into guaranteed truth, so that everyone else is wrong.

That...is actually a delicate statement. While no one should think they have all the answers I believe collectively God has given the church all we need to find the answers that He wants us to know.

 

[valiant]

That...is actually a delicate statement. While no one should think they have all the answers I believe collectively God has given the church all we need to find the answers that He wants us to know.

I don't know how old you are but I have been around long enough to believe that God is not really too bothered how we view the Book of Revelation, and extracts from the Old Testament prophets. I will agree that He gives us what He wants us to know. What He wants us to be aware of is that sin will finally be judged and that we should be awaiting the Lord's return. All the rest is speculation.

Until two Roman Catholic Bible students (I will not call them scholars) introduced the ideas then taken up by Darby and his cronies, much of what is taught today as 'certain truth' was completely unknown. In our day Daniel and Revelation have become the happy hunting ground of fanatics who all think they are right. Take the seventy sevens. No one says, what does it actually teach? They rather ask, how can I fit it into history and into my theories about the second coming? And if they don't fit, split them up. Then fantasise.

Can you tell me why Jesus, Paul, James and Peter never gave even a hint of a millennium? The obvious answer is that they were not expecting one.

 

[valiant]

Don't forget that a season is a long period of time. Just keep counting the birth pains until spiritual labor.

lol the birth pangs began 2000 years ago according to Jesus (Mark13.8)

what you mean is that a season could be 2000 years? I'll agree with that.

 

[PlainWord]

Not only are they wrong historically,they have been shown they are wrong and still persist.

The only way historical belief could be a reliable ruler would be if the early church was 100% right.

THEY WEREN'T. Therefore this ruler invites deception.Funny how they pull a "rabbit trail" out of a dusty bag thinking it has signifigance.

A big part of this debate is that the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is relatively new, having been introduced around 1830 by John Darby based on a vision of Margaret McDonald. The doctrine did not grow in popularity in the USA until the Scofield Reference Bible was released in 1917 in which it popularized dispensationalism in its footnotes. The Scofield Reference Bible used footnotes to cross-reference passages it felt were related. These footnotes appeared alongside the text within the same volume instead of in a different volume. The Scofield Bible was the first Bible to do so since the Geneva Bible of 1560. Fundamentalists in the USA went crazy over this new theory which promoted the idea that the Church was not to endure the Great Tribulation.

The below is from Wikipedia:

It was largely through the influence of Scofield's notes that dispensationalism grew in influence among fundamentalist Christians in the United States. Scofield's notes on the Book of Revelation are a major source for the various timetables, judgments, and plagues elaborated on by popular religious writers such as Hal Lindsey, Edgar C. Whisenant, and Tim LaHaye and in part because of the success of the Scofield Reference Bible, twentieth-century American fundamentalists placed greater stress on eschatological speculation. Opponents of biblical fundamentalism have criticized the Scofield Bible for its air of total authority in biblical interpretation, for what they consider its glossing over of biblical contradictions, and for its focus on eschatology.

Therefore it is very important in the context of our discussion how the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine got started, how it spread and that it was NOT in the mainstream of thought in Christian Churches anywhere until the early 1900s. The Hymns I cited prove this point as the vast majority of Christians prior to 1917 saw one Triumphant Return of Christ in all His Glory whereby He comes to defeat evil and the reign. So, either Darby, Scofield and the like were given some divine interpretation that no other person (including the apostles that wrote the NT) were given or they invented something on their own.

So, which is more likely? God waited 1800 years to show us something new that was hidden in the Bible or man invented something new that was more appealing to man than the truth?

 

[SilverFanng]

I don't know how old you are but I have been around long enough to believe that God is not really too bothered how we view the Book of Revelation, and extracts from the Old Testament prophets. I will agree that He gives us what He wants us to know. What He wants us to be aware of is that sin will finally be judged and that we should be awaiting the Lord's return. All the rest is speculation.

Until two Roman Catholic Bible students (I will not call them scholars) introduced the ideas then taken up by Darby and his cronies, much of what is taught today as 'certain truth' was completely unknown. In our day Daniel and Revelation have become the happy hunting ground of fanatics who all think they are right. Take the seventy sevens. No one says, what does it actually teach? They rather ask, how can I fit it into history and into my theories about the second coming? And if they don't fit, split them up. Then fantasise.

Can you tell me why Jesus, Paul, James and Peter never gave even a hint of a millennium? The obvious answer is that they were not expecting one.

Are you then saying that the revelation of Christ according to John wasn't actually from Jesus? Because He reveals in the revelation that He will reign for a thousand years. We can't forget that John received the revelation from Christ. Although you are absolutely correct about the fact that the concept of a rapture is a new idea only arising in, I believe, the last two hundred years.

And yes many people have turned out to be false prophets, especially in recent years. But it is written that in the last days God would pour out His Spirit and old men will have dreams and young men will have visions. Denying this is denying the word of God. Instead we should be testing all people claiming to have prophecy from God. All you have to find is one prophecy that goes unfulfilled. And that's it. The easiest task that's ever been given to us.

Just remember that there will be real prophecies out there too.

 

[SilverFanng]

lol the birth pangs began 2000 years ago according to Jesus (Mark13.8)

what you mean is that a season could be 2000 years? I'll agree with that.

Yep. But as it is with birth pangs, the closer we get to the AC arriving on the scene the more frequent and closer together the birth pangs come.

 

[valiant]

Yep. But as it is with birth pangs, the closer we get to the AC arriving on the scene the more frequent and closer together the birth pangs come.

There is no antichrist mentioned in Revelation

 

[PlainWord]

UH,not really,according to postribs,they DO NOT make it to heaven. (the invented uturn in the sky,remember)

You are contradicting yourself ..........once again[/COLOR]

A U-turn would mean to go back the way you came. You teach a U-Turn, I teach a one-way trip from heaven to earth. Where will the Saints reign?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Souls in heaven are re-united with resurrected incorruptible bodies from the earth on the very last day to dwell on the new earth. Souls are in heaven, not resurrected human bodies. I am unaware of any teaching that shows us a resurrected incorruptible human body in the heaven above. I realize that Enoch and Elijah did not see death and were taken but we are not told about their bodies. We are, however, given passages that teach souls are in heaven waiting.

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God.

These souls are not in bodies. They are waiting for the resurrection of the Last Day. Jesus confirms that we do not get our bodies like angels until the resurrection.

Mat 22:30:

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

When does Jesus tell us the resurrection happens?

...everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is no mention of "parts" or "Phases" or multiple last days. Singular DAY is used. The Pre-Trib doctrine introduces many inconsistencies and need to invent "fixes" such as multiple parts to the resurrection.

 

[valiant]

Are you then saying that the revelation of Christ according to John wasn't actually from Jesus?

No I am saying that it is totally misrepresented as though God was not concerned about John's day, but only about ours.

Because He reveals in the revelation that He will reign for a thousand years.

well He IS reigning for 'a thousand years' (in OT speak an indeterminate period of time) and more now. He commenced His reign at the resurrection (Acts 2.30, 36). Notice that it is the SOULS of the dead who reign with Him (Reve 20.4-5), and there is not a single hint that He reigns on earth. What is hinted at is that WE are reigning with Him in Heaven (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1).

We can't forget that John received the revelation from Christ.

Yes and it was intended as a message to the people of HIS day. Not as a second coming charter.

Although you are absolutely correct about the fact that the concept of a rapture is a new idea only arising in, I believe, the last two hundred years.

No comment.

And yes many people have turned out to be false prophets, especially in recent years.

you are dead right there

But it is written that in the last days God would pour out His Spirit and old men will have dreams and young men will have visions. Denying this is denying the word of God.

It is also written that Peter said 'THIS IS WHAT WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL'. confirming that that prophecy had been fulfilled. DENYING THIS IS DENYING THE WORD OF GOD

Instead we should be testing all people claiming to have prophecy from God. All you have to find is one prophecy that goes unfulfilled. And that's it. The easiest task that's ever been given to us.

Most of the so-called end time prophecies were fulfilled over 2000 years ago. People just pick out what suits them, otherwise they would contradict each other.

Just remember that there will be real prophecies out there too.

Most of which have already been fulfilled.

 

[GaryA]

Until two Roman Catholic Bible students (I will not call them scholars) introduced the ideas then taken up by Darby and his cronies, ...

This is my understanding as well...

In our day Daniel and Revelation have become the happy hunting ground of fanatics who all think they are right. Take the seventy sevens. No one says, what does it actually teach? They rather ask, how can I fit it into history and into my theories about the second coming? And if they don't fit, split them up. Then fantasise.

"Yep."

Can you tell me why Jesus, Paul, James and Peter never gave even a hint of a millennium?

Why do some people not believe that Revelation 20:1-7 "gives even a hint of a millennium"...???

 

[SilverFanng]

There is no antichrist mentioned in Revelation

The word "antichrist" is originally the Greek word antikhristos meaning " instead of Christ". In other words a false Christ. John makes a reference that there will be several antichrists throughout the age and the final one he refers to as The Antichrist. The false Christ to beat all other false Christs. A false Christ is any man of evil leading the world away from God and Christ's gift of grace. The most evil men in history are antichrists. But John also says that ANYONE who denies Christ is antichrist.

Check out 1 John 2:22 and 1 John 2:18.

We mainly use the term now to identify the man of perdition or the man of sin. This is the man who will end all sacrifices which means he will lead the world away from Christ and they won't even know it. Only the redeemed will be aware of him.

 

[valiant]

The word "antichrist" is originally the Greek word antikhristos meaning " instead of Christ". In other words a false Christ. John makes a reference that there will be several antichrists throughout the age and the final one he refers to as The Antichrist. The false Christ to beat all other false Christs. A false Christ is any man of evil leading the world away from God and Christ's gift of grace. The most evil men in history are antichrists. But John also says that ANYONE who denies Christ is antichrist.

Check out 1 John 2:22 and 1 John 2:18.

We mainly use the term now to identify the man of perdition or the man of sin. This is the man who will end all sacrifices which means he will lead the world away from Christ and they won't even know it. Only the redeemed will be aware of him.

I am aware of the Scripture teaching about antichrist but it is significant that John who mentions antichrists does NOT mention an Antichrist in Revelation. Nor does he speak of THE ANTICHRIST anywhere. Antichrists appeared in 1st century AD. In my view the man of perdition, the man of sin, also appeared in 1st century AD I am aware of what 'WE' claim, but perhaps WE are wrong.

where does it say he will end all sacrifice?

 

[SilverFanng]

No I am saying that it is totally misrepresented as though God was not concerned about John's day, but only about ours.



well He IS reigning for 'a thousand years' (in OT speak an indeterminate period of time) and more now. He commenced His reign at the resurrection (Acts 2.30, 36). Notice that it is the SOULS of the dead who reign with Him (Reve 20.4-5), and there is not a single hint that He reigns on earth. What is hinted at is that WE are reigning with Him in Heaven (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1).



Yes and it was intended as a message to the people of HIS day. Not as a second coming charter.



No comment.



you are dead right there



It is also written that Peter said 'THIS IS WHAT WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL'. confirming that that prophecy had been fulfilled. DENYING THIS IS DENYING THE WORD OF GOD



Most of the so-called end time prophecies were fulfilled over 2000 years ago. People just pick out what suits them, otherwise they would contradict each other.



Most of which have already been fulfilled.

Sigh. I believe I now understand every one of your beliefs now regarding bible prophecy. My guess is that you don't believe Christ will return at all and there won't be a day without sin. In fact that is what you are saying. If Christ is reigning right now over all the Earth than apparently He will never destroy all sin. If that is the case then Satan has won. For he has not yet been cast into the lake of fire if sin is still rampant. Not to mention that the second resurrection has to occur AFTER the 1000 year reign but you make it sound as though there is no end to the 1000 years.

 

[valiant]

Why do some people not believe that Revelation 20:1-7 "gives even a hint of a millennium"...???

Because the 'thousand years' mentioned there is like the 'thousand generations' mentioned in the OT. It means a large indefined period of time. We are in it now, living and reigning with Christ with our fellow saints above

 

[SilverFanng]

I am aware of the Scripture teaching about antichrist but it is significant that John who mentions antichrists does NOT mention an Antichrist in Revelation. Nor does he speak of THE ANTICHRIST anywhere. Antichrists appeared in 1st century AD. In my view the man of perdition, the man of sin, also appeared in 1st century AD I am aware of what 'WE' claim, but perhaps WE are wrong.

where does it say he will end all sacrifice?

Then let us call him the beast out of the sea. Also, Daniel says it will.

 

[SilverFanng]

Because the 'thousand years' mentioned there is like the 'thousand generations' mentioned in the OT. It means a large indefined period of time. We are in it now, living and reigning with Christ with our fellow saints above

Reigning? Really? We are laughed at EVERYWHERE. Outside of the western world we are hunted and slaughtered. This is not the 1000 year reign that is supposed to occur after Christ kills all His enemies. He has only come once. I don't know why you are so deceived as to think He came as a warrior king when He has only come as the sacrificial lamb.