When does the rapture occur?

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valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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Cool, then you can tell me what the 13 bullocks represent Spiritually. The 15th of the seventh month begins the feast of tabernacles.

Numbers 29:12-14 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; thirteen young bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year; they shall be without blemish:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto every bullock of the thirteen bullocks, two tenth deals to each ram of the two rams,
well it is one bullock per day from the day of atonement to the 'eighth day' of the feast celebrating atonement and harvest. No doubt you have another interpretation? Its anyone's guess really LOL

of course you could say that with the rams it is fifteen offerings, one per day from the new moon to the 15th. Take your choice :)
 
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S

SilverFanng

Guest
I absolutely agree with that; I take part in this as a way to keep my mind on God and my sword sharp.

What I take umbrage with is those who think they have a lock on the truth and insist that everyone else is an unsaved heretic, as in VCO's last response to me. You have to put the blade to stone and wear a little off to sharpen a sword. Those who refuse to do so or don't think they need to are dull blades for sure. They are the stone and not the sword. But Jesus never said take up your stones.
I feel you, man. I am often told I am on the wrong path, but when I listened in the past and tried to cut away all of that God yanked me back over there. I am now trying to sharpen my understanding of what He has revealed to me. It is a lonely and painful road sometimes.
 
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well it is one bullock per day from the day of atonement to the 'eighth day' of the feast celebrating atonement and harvest. No doubt you have another interpretation? Its anyone's guess really LOL

of course you could say that with the rams it is fifteen offerings, one per day from the new moon to the 15th. Take your choice :)
Trumpets begin on the first day of the 7th month, Atonement begins on the 10th day of the same month, and Tabernacles begins on the 15th of the same month. I was not addressing trumpets or Atonement, just tabernacles as it is described during the millennial reign of Christ prophesied in Zechariah chapter 14. The 13 bullocks are sacrificed on the 15th of the 7th month. Just wondering. Have a nice day.
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Trumpets begin on the first day of the 7th month, Atonement begins on the 10th day of the same month, and Tabernacles begins on the 15th of the same month. I was not addressing trumpets or Atonement, just tabernacles as it is described during the millennial reign of Christ prophesied in Zechariah chapter 14. The 13 bullocks are sacrificed on the 15th of the 7th month. Just wondering. Have a nice day.
All sacrifices and offerings ceased once Christ had fulfilled them all. Thus there can be no literal fulfilment of the feast mentioned in Zech 14. Memorial offerings would not fulfil Zech 14. Zechariah meant atoning offerings which have been fulfilled in Christ.

memorial offerings are an unscriptural get out.
 
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All sacrifices and offerings ceased once Christ had fulfilled them all. Thus there can be no literal fulfilment of the feast mentioned in Zech 14. Memorial offerings would not fulfil Zech 14. Zechariah meant atoning offerings which have been fulfilled in Christ.

memorial offerings are an unscriptural get out.
Physically they ceased, this is true. I was asking for spiritual explanations. These were burnt offerings representing devotion to God. They weren't trespass offerings or sin offerings that were atoning for wrong doing. The feast of Tabernacles will be spiritually observed during the reign of Christ. If you say we are in the Millennial period right now, then the spiritual significance of the Feast of tabernacles apply to the here and now.

All I asked is if you were attending the feast because we are now in the Millennial period, you might know the spiritual relevance of the 13 Bullocks for a burnt offering. That's OK if you don't. This is what I found in relation to the sacrifice of Jesus our Lord. It is relative to the numbers in the Bible and the Hebrew alethbyet. alphabet

The number
13 represents “Apostasy, depravity, rebellion.
The 13[SUP]th[/SUP] letter means chaos, water, and blood that are mighty. The law entered because of transgression.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Physically they ceased, this is true. I was asking for spiritual explanations. These were burnt offerings representing devotion to God. They weren't trespass offerings or sin offerings that were atoning for wrong doing.
Whilst burnt offerings are dedicatory they are also for atonement (e.g. Lev 1.4). ALL sacrifice and offerings were for atonement. All also involved the shedding of blood for sin. It is true that sin and trespass offerings were more specific for individual sins, and even for the sins of Israel, but the burnt offering also atoned for sin. Thus the connection with the Day of Atonement..

The feast of Tabernacles will be spiritually observed during the reign of Christ.
It is being observed during His present reign as His people dedicate themselves afresh to Him daily.

If you say we are in the Millennial period right now, then the spiritual significance of the Feast of tabernacles apply to the here and now.
Correct. Thus our need for daily rededication.

All I asked is if you were attending the feast because we are now in the Millennial period, you might know the spiritual relevance of the 13 Bullocks for a burnt offering. That's OK if you don't. This is what I found in relation to the sacrifice of Jesus our Lord. It is relative to the numbers in the Bible and the Hebrew alethbyet. alphabet
Well as you know one reason for the number thirteen was so that by the seventh day, reducing by one each day, the number would be seven, the number of divine perfection. This may indeed suggest that thirteen offerings covered the thirteen tribes of Israel. Seven then indicating perfect covering.

One reason for the thirteen may well have been because it was the ultimate number for most men. Men could count to ten on their fingers, cope with one and two more but by thirteen they had passed their limit. That is why in our numerals eleven = eleph en (one over) and twelve = two eleph (two over). The teens were then beyond counting ability for most. (On the whole most people had no need to count beyond twelve). This would make thirteen offerings 'over above' what could be expected, and therefore a munificent offering. (We can compare how there were thirteen declensions in Hebrew grammar - nine masculine, four feminine)

The number
13 represents “Apostasy, depravity, rebellion."


why? to me it seems to indicate munificence, something over and beyond. Or the thirteen tribes of Israel.

13[SUP]th[/SUP] letter means chaos, water, and blood that are mighty. The law entered because of transgression.
But why? I could see mem as meaning running water, and possibly chaos because the waters were wavy, but why blood?
 
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But why? I could see mem as meaning running water, and possibly chaos because the waters were wavy, but why blood?
Because it is the last act before the New Testament of Christ represented by 14. Nun = the Seed and heir that continues. The Old testament Joshua in Hebrew is the same as Jesus in the Greek. Joshua was the son of Nun, Jesus is the Son of God that continues after the Old Testament is completed. Jesus said "It is finished." So everything Jesus taught was Old Testament truth.

Hebrews 9:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

13 represents “Apostasy, depravity, rebellion." chaos, water, and blood that are mighty. The law entered because of transgression.

Mem (13) is what Jesus carried to Golgotha.


The next day 12 bullocks were sacrificed working our way to the 7 that you mentioned. Obviously this day if after the completion of Jesus mission of bearing our sins on the cross.

The number 12 represents governmental perfection
The 12[SUP]th[/SUP] letter means to teach, yoke, and bind, continuing to be connected with the perfection in Christ Jesus, and bound to the divine plan by every Word that God has ever spoken, not by self-works, but by faith.

It is the 2nd day of the feast of tabernacles.

The number 2 represents union, division, and witnessing
The 2[SUP]nd[/SUP]letter means a family, a house of shelter from the outside elements. This is a doorway given for us to be united with the family of God, evidenced by past events we are sheltered from this world’s values, represented by Egypt, and desire not to be united with self will.

It is also the 16th day of the 7th month

The number 16 represents love
The 16[SUP]th[/SUP] letter means to watch, know, and shade like the gourd shading Jonah 4:6.

We are ministers of the love of God, and love for our neighbors and enemies. This kind of love sheds light on darkness by a discerning heart, wanting ourselves, and others to be separated from anything that might alienate us from the presence of God.

There are 16 names defining God’s character in scripture, and these are likened, and parallel to 1 Corinthians 13:4-8a “Charity suffereth long (1), and is kind;(2) charity envieth not;(3) charity vaunteth not itself, (4) is not puffed up, (5)Doth not behave itself unseemly,(6) seeketh not her own,(7) is not easily provoked,(8) thinketh no evil; (9)Rejoiceth not in iniquity,(10) but rejoiceth in the truth; (11)Beareth all things,(12) believeth all things,(13) hopeth all things,(14) endureth all things.(15) Charity never faileth” (16).
 
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valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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Past? Isn't there any future? Are we just waiting for whatever might be, or is it that all things in prophecy are completely over and done with?
Mostly over and done with. Some taking place even now in the Middle east.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Matthew 24:3
I wonder why you put the last two statements in red and ignore the first one? WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS (THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE WE ARE LOOKING AT) BE?

The great tribulation mentioned by Matthew which begins with needing to flee into the mountains occurs when the Temple is destroyed, the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place. The Jews suffered in Jerusalem beyond telling, mostly at the hands of their own people. Then large numbers were carried off to perform in the Colosseum whilst the remainder were scattered around the world to endure centuries of tribulation, a great tribulation that continues.

Luke puts it this way:

20 ¶ But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

THIS is the great tribulation of Matthew. It is only once this tribulation is completed that the end can come.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
(Matthew 24)
yes once the great tribulation of the Jews is over and the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, then Christ will come.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:52

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
This follows the 2000 year tribulation of the Jews the like of which has never been seen and will not be again.
 

VCO

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LOL we were definitely in the season 70 years ago. We were wrong :rolleyes:
2 Peter 3:3-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP] They willfully ignore this: Long ago the heavens and the earth were brought about from water and through water by the word of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Through these waters the world of that time perished when it was flooded.
 

valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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Originally Posted by valiant
LOL we were definitely in the season 70 years ago. We were wrong :rolleyes:
2 Peter 3:3-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP] They willfully ignore this: Long ago the heavens and the earth were brought about from water and through water by the word of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Through these waters the world of that time perished when it was flooded.
LOL we used to quote that too :)

Christ MAY come soon but we would be fools to just assume it. Our job is to get out and evangelise the world (says an old man who has to care 24 hours a day for a very ill wife and can only do it by computer). We must leave the timing to Him
 
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THIS is the great tribulation of Matthew. It is only once this tribulation is completed that the end can come.


yes once the great tribulation of the Jews is over and the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, then Christ will come.
So when the times of the Gentiles are done then Christ shall return and begin His reign on earth for 1000 years. I agree with both of your statements with one exception. This exception is that the disciples specifically asked Jesus when the end of the world would be and the sign of His second coming at the beginning of Matthew 24. Many say that the great tribulation is 3 1/2 to 7 years. I think we are in a tribulation period now, but I don't think the signs are quite complete yet and it isn't really a great tribulation yet such as the world has never seen. Obviously the 1000 year reign of Christ didn't start at His death or resurrection for that was 2000 years ago. I'm just wondering how you are putting this all together according to Scripture.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison," Revelation 20:4-7
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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LOL pretribbers in agreement? You must be joking. But I'm NOT a post-tribber. THERE WILL BE NO GREAT TRIBULATION. It is mainly in the past.
Remember you taught that:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

Revelation 13:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And he requires everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark: the beast’s name or the number of his name.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Here is wisdom: The one who has understanding must calculate the number of the beast, because it is the number of a man. His number is 666.

Revelation 14:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And a third angel followed them and spoke with a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] he will also drink the wine of God’s wrath, which is mixed full strength in the cup of His anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.
Revelation 19:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 20:4 (NIV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So tell me, "How popular is Lord Maitreya in England?" Or has that movement died out?
 

VCO

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LOL we used to quote that too :)

Christ MAY come soon but we would be fools to just assume it. Our job is to get out and evangelise the world (says an old man who has to care 24 hours a day for a very ill wife and can only do it by computer). We must leave the timing to Him
We Evangelicals Believe it may be SOON, and that generates a SENSE of URGENCY evangelize and do all we can to Support Missionaries, and to witness to others. AND YOU FIND SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT?

Matthew 28:19-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
 

valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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So when the times of the Gentiles are done then Christ shall return and begin His reign on earth for 1000 years. I agree with both of your statements with one exception. This exception is that the disciples specifically asked Jesus when the end of the world would be and the sign of His second coming at the beginning of Matthew 24.
well if you check Mark and Luke those statements are missing from both. Mark - 'tell us when will these things be (the destruction of the temple) and what will be the sign when all these things (the throwing down of the stones of the Temple) are to be accomplished.

Luke - 'Teacher when will this be, and what will be the sign when this (the throwing down of the stones of the Temple) is to take place.?'

This makes clear that the main emphasis on what follows is to be on when the destruction of the Temple they were looking at was to take place.

Jesus reply was initially to emphasise the troubles that were coming, false Messiahs, wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes. These were the beginning of labour pains. The 1st century AD was especially noted for such devastations. Along with this was to be the persecution of Christ's followers.

What then of the destruction of the Temple? Mark tells us (in language similar to Matthew) 'when you see the abomination of desolation set up were it ought not to be (Luke applies this to armies surrounding Jerusalem) --- in those days there will be tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of creation which God created until now, and never shall be'.

So Mark unquestionably links the abomination of desolation and the coming tribulation with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Luke expands on this and reveals that the tribulation will continue through the centuries, as the Jews are scattered among the nations. It includes the progroms, the Holocaust and so on. Noting like it has been or will be seen again. It is all in accord with Deut 28.

Thus Jesus answer to the question about the signs of the end of the age must be seen as applying to what follows the tribulation.
Many say that the great tribulation is 3 1/2 to 7 years.
But they have no real grounds for it. It results from a false interpretation of Daniel 9 combined with a distorting of the incidents when 1260 days/42 months are mentioned in Revelation (but never in Daniel) so as to try to make them parallel, which they are not.

I think we are in a tribulation period now, but I don't think the signs are quite complete yet and it isn't really a great tribulation yet such as the world has never seen.
Both Jesus and Paul from the beginning said that the church would face tribulation. and it has gone on though the centuries. But the great tribulation of Matt 24 is the tribulation of the Jews from 70 AD to the present day. Nothing has ever been seen like it both for length and, at times, intensity. The great tribulation of Rev 7 refers to the tribulation through the ages which at times has been very intense.

Obviously the 1000 year reign of Christ didn't start at His death or resurrection for that was 2000 years ago. I'm just wondering how you are putting this all together according to Scripture.
what did 'a thousand years' mean to people in New Testament times? Most were not mathematical. they never used large numbers. They did not need to. To most it simply meant a huge amount of time. This is confirmed by the OT use of 1000. the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50.10 - a huge number of hills). a thousand generations (Deut 7.9; 1 Chron 16.15; - a huge number of generations). Thus to the ordinary reader 'a thousand years' simply meant a huge number of years beyond counting.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison," Revelation 20:4-7
So what this is saying is that the SOULS of the saints in mind will live and reign with Christ a huge number of years, just as the saints on earth will be living and reigning with Christ (Eph 2.5-6). They have had their part in HIS resurrection, the first resurrection. Note that there is not even a hint that His reign is on earth.

But then Satan will be let loose (from the Abyss). In Rev 9.11 the king of the angels is let loose from the Abyss whose name is Destruction, along with large numbers of evil spirits. In 17.8 the Beast from the Abyss is let loose. Do you really think that God will keep loosing evil powers from the Abyss to try to make matters worse? These three incidents are surely one and the same. And in two cases they definitely occur before the second coming.
 
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LOL we used to quote that too :)

Christ MAY come soon but we would be fools to just assume it. Our job is to get out and evangelise the world (says an old man who has to care 24 hours a day for a very ill wife and can only do it by computer). We must leave the timing to Him
I'm sorry and will pray for you and your wife. i know that can be a hard life at times. :)
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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All sacrifices and offerings ceased once Christ had fulfilled them all. Thus there can be no literal fulfilment of the feast mentioned in Zech 14. Memorial offerings would not fulfil Zech 14. Zechariah meant atoning offerings which have been fulfilled in Christ.

memorial offerings are an unscriptural get out.
"The Festival of Booths" also called "The Feast of Tabernacles"

Zechariah 14:16 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


How about LEARNING FROM a Jew that used to practice this FEAST before HE became a born again Christian with a Doctorate in Theology.

[video]http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/123[/video]
 
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Leviticus 23:34-35
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the Lord.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]On the first day shall be an holy convocation (4744): ye shall do no servile work therein.


4744
something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:--assembly, calling, convocation, reading.

Concerning the spiritual concepts of this feast during the millennial period, the church of today should be recognizing, and rehearsing (observing in Spirit) the reality of the millennium, and what the feast represents in detail concerning the salvation, and second coming of Christ as our Lord, Savior, and Almighty King that will reign with His iron rod, bringing peace to the entire world, for He is the Prince of peace after the order of
Melchizedek.

We are not there yet, but it will happen after the tribulation as Jesus mentioned to His disciples an Matthew chapter 24. Take special note of verses 3 and 29.


 
P

popeye

Guest
I feel you, man. I am often told I am on the wrong path, but when I listened in the past and tried to cut away all of that God yanked me back over there. I am now trying to sharpen my understanding of what He has revealed to me. It is a lonely and painful road sometimes.
Not for me,the word of God testifies for me.
You have chosen the path of least truth.That is why YOUR DOCTRINE drains you.

You in fact VERIFY that I am on the right path.
You have no understanding of the biggest event about to happen.THE GATHERING OF THE BRIDE BY THE GROOM.
You are unaware that the GT is a time of Jacobs trouble (Jewish trouble),and that the rapture will mark the end of the Gentile church's time on earth.
Get one of your teachers to expound on the 10 virgin parable and get ready to laugh,because they ABSOLUTELY MUST GET REALLY CREATIVE.

Ask yourself "why is the AC COMISSIONED THE MURDER THE SAINTS?"
"Why does he HAVE TO overcome them?"
"Why are the martyrs no longer "under the altar" " (in heaven,where they had to be under it untill their number is complete)
"why did jesus build mansions in heaven,only to take his bride back to earth,to a war"
"why did postribs have to INVENT the uturn at Jesus 2 coming?"
"why do potribs HAVE TO TWIST rev 20 into the timing of the 1st resurrection,when it is a no brainer it is nowhere near the 1st resurrection?"
The groom/bride dimension that your side leaves out is a game changer and a slam dunk.
 
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popeye

Guest
well if you check Mark and Luke those statements are missing from both. Mark - 'tell us when will these things be (the destruction of the temple) and what will be the sign when all these things (the throwing down of the stones of the Temple) are to be accomplished.

Luke - 'Teacher when will this be, and what will be the sign when this (the throwing down of the stones of the Temple) is to take place.?'

This makes clear that the main emphasis on what follows is to be on when the destruction of the Temple they were looking at was to take place.

Jesus reply was initially to emphasise the troubles that were coming, false Messiahs, wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes. These were the beginning of labour pains. The 1st century AD was especially noted for such devastations. Along with this was to be the persecution of Christ's followers.

What then of the destruction of the Temple? Mark tells us (in language similar to Matthew) 'when you see the abomination of desolation set up were it ought not to be (Luke applies this to armies surrounding Jerusalem) --- in those days there will be tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of creation which God created until now, and never shall be'.

So Mark unquestionably links the abomination of desolation and the coming tribulation with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Luke expands on this and reveals that the tribulation will continue through the centuries, as the Jews are scattered among the nations. It includes the progroms, the Holocaust and so on. Noting like it has been or will be seen again. It is all in accord with Deut 28.

Thus Jesus answer to the question about the signs of the end of the age must be seen as applying to what follows the tribulation.


But they have no real grounds for it. It results from a false interpretation of Daniel 9 combined with a distorting of the incidents when 1260 days/42 months are mentioned in Revelation (but never in Daniel) so as to try to make them parallel, which they are not.



Both Jesus and Paul from the beginning said that the church would face tribulation. and it has gone on though the centuries. But the great tribulation of Matt 24 is the tribulation of the Jews from 70 AD to the present day. Nothing has ever been seen like it both for length and, at times, intensity. The great tribulation of Rev 7 refers to the tribulation through the ages which at times has been very intense.



what did 'a thousand years' mean to people in New Testament times? Most were not mathematical. they never used large numbers. They did not need to. To most it simply meant a huge amount of time. This is confirmed by the OT use of 1000. the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50.10 - a huge number of hills). a thousand generations (Deut 7.9; 1 Chron 16.15; - a huge number of generations). Thus to the ordinary reader 'a thousand years' simply meant a huge number of years beyond counting.



So what this is saying is that the SOULS of the saints in mind will live and reign with Christ a huge number of years, just as the saints on earth will be living and reigning with Christ (Eph 2.5-6). They have had their part in HIS resurrection, the first resurrection. Note that there is not even a hint that His reign is on earth.

But then Satan will be let loose (from the Abyss). In Rev 9.11 the king of the angels is let loose from the Abyss whose name is Destruction, along with large numbers of evil spirits. In 17.8 the Beast from the Abyss is let loose. Do you really think that God will keep loosing evil powers from the Abyss to try to make matters worse? These three incidents are surely one and the same. And in two cases they definitely occur before the second coming.
Both Jesus and Paul from the beginning said that the church would face tribulation. and it has gone on though the centuries. But the great tribulation of Matt 24 is the tribulation of the Jews from 70 AD to the present day. Nothing has ever been seen like it both for length and, at times, intensity. The great tribulation of Rev 7 refers to the tribulation through the ages which at times has been very intense.
Getting creative are we?

Mark of the beast,forehead,hand,no buying,no selling. OOOPS.
hailstones of fire?
Flying scorpions?




Obviously the 1000 year reign of Christ didn't start at His death or resurrection for that was 2000 years ago. I'm just wondering how you are putting this all together according to Scripture.

what did 'a thousand years' mean to people in New Testament times? Most were not mathematical. they never used large numbers. They did not need to. To most it simply meant a huge amount of time. This is confirmed by the OT use of 1000. the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50.10 - a huge number of hills). a thousand generations (Deut 7.9; 1 Chron 16.15; - a huge number of generations). Thus to the ordinary reader 'a thousand years' simply meant a huge number of years beyond counting.

Creative once more?
You are actually building a doctrine on the basis of conjecture.
 
F

FriendlyGuitarist

Guest
No one knows when Jesus is coming back. Not even he knows when he is coming back. Only God knows. Even the Bible says that. I don't get caught up in this kind of discussion because of that. We all try and figure out when he's coming back but no one knows so what's the point? The more important question should be are we ready to see him when he comes back?
I know I'm looking forward to that day when he comes back!