When does the rapture occur?

[popeye]

What are you talking about??? I never said there would be no wicked left on earth when Christ returns. I am talking about the wicked being removed from the "Kingdom." Can you see the wicked being removed from the kingdom?

The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one...The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness.


This happens at the End of the Age. It is what we have been discussing. It is what the disciples were asking about at the Olivet. They wanted to know what the signs of His Coming would be and of the end of the age.

Mat 24: ...And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Mat 13: The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels... Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age... So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just...

You tell me, does this happen at a Pre Trib return, at the Second Coming post trib or at some other point?

What are you talking about??? I never said there would be no wicked left on earth when Christ returns. I am talking about the wicked being removed from the "Kingdom." Can you see the wicked being removed from the kingdom?

Dude,you are getting nailed so bad on simple exegesis.

Read it slowly;
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The "one taken" dimension starts AND ENDS with "noone knows WHEN HE IS COMING"

You now,in your creative painting yourself into a corner have the "one taken,one left" FALSELY in the millineum.
Jesus knew someone would try and invent that non event.

You blatantly twisted the thing.............ONCE AGAIN

I already told you once b4 that the flood example/story is PREFLOOD/PRETRIB.
Why can you not see that there is NOTHING POSTFLOOD? (no war,noone killed,NOTHING)
.........and yet you try and MAKE IT FIT.

 

[GaryA]

"why do potribs HAVE TO TWIST rev 20 into the timing of the 1st resurrection,when it is a no brainer it is nowhere near the 1st resurrection?"

Revelation 20:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [SUP]2[/SUP] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [SUP]3[/SUP] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6[/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


"I thought that this was a 'no-brainer'..."


The first resurrection occurs before the 1000-year reign of Christ.

 

[popeye]

No one knows when Jesus is coming back. Not even he knows when he is coming back. Only God knows. Even the Bible says that. I don't get caught up in this kind of discussion because of that. We all try and figure out when he's coming back but no one knows so what's the point? The more important question should be are we ready to see him when he comes back?
I know I'm looking forward to that day when he comes back!

The beauty of a forum is,I get to discuss what interest me,and not what doesn't.

mayby you can share what your interest are?

Start a thread?

 

[popeye]

Revelation 20:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [SUP]2[/SUP] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [SUP]3[/SUP] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6[/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


"I thought that this was a 'no-brainer'..."


The first resurrection occurs before the 1000-year reign of Christ.

"THIS" Only maryrs? only martyrs are resurrected" 1st resurrrection and millineal reign is martyrs only?

My bible reads "dead in christ",which would include all IN CHRIST,not exclude.

To top it off since we have to take it to mean what you guys erroneously impose,then the martyrs of the bible are also excluded.They never saw the mark and consequently had no opportunity to refuse it.

That is why you guys are once again wrong,because you just ARBITRARILY ascribe mess to what should be obvious.

 

[popeye]

Rev 20 erroneus timing of the 1st resurrection by postribs could be the most glaring twisting of verses ever contrived.

 

[PlainWord]

Dude,you are getting nailed so bad on simple exegesis.

Read it slowly;
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The "one taken" dimension starts AND ENDS with "noone knows WHEN HE IS COMING"

You now,in your creative painting yourself into a corner have the "one taken,one left" FALSELY in the millineum.
Jesus knew someone would try and invent that non event.

You blatantly twisted the thing.............ONCE AGAIN

I already told you once b4 that the flood example/story is PREFLOOD/PRETRIB.
Why can you not see that there is NOTHING POSTFLOOD? (no war,noone killed,NOTHING)
.........and yet you try and MAKE IT FIT.

I am getting nailed?? Another strong delusion of yours perhaps? First, set your mind as if there is one return of Christ after the Tribulation. I know, it's hard for you to do, but amuse me just this once. Close your eyes (after reading this paragraph) and envision this the way I am telling it. The world has just gone through the worst Tribulation ever. Israel is shattered, the church has been wiped out. The Beast and its Islamic extremists have gained power over all of the Middle East, much of Africa, Europe and Asia. Only a small remnant of believers remain. For many all hope is lost except for the faithful few who anxiously await the return of the Lord. When the Lord comes, He comes with Great Wrath and Vengeance and Judgment. Once you have your mind wrapped around the scenario I just provided now read those passages again with my explanation of what they mean below.

36. The Day and Hour that the Lord comes, nobody knows. But we certainly know the season as we just went through the GT.
37. When the Son of Man comes, He comes suddenly and without warning to those who do not know him. This is exactly how the Flood came. The wicked had no idea, they thought Noah was crazy. But Noah know, just as the remnant will know. The comparison is perfect.
38. The wicked in Noah's Day were living their lives as normal, clueless about the Flood to come. The wicked after the GT will also be living as normal, clueless about the Wrath of the Lord to come. They killed most of the Jews and Christians and can now live the lives they want without being told its wrong.
39. When Christ returns, His angels forcefully remove all wicked from the Land where He will reign (expanded Israel).
40. The wicked are taken outside the Lord's territory, they are separated as the "Goats." The one left is the righteous who remain with the Lord. See Dan 12:2-3.
41. Another example of vs 40.
42. Again, even those of us who know the signs do not know the specific hour (or day) the Lord will return but we will know the season and likely even the year.

The wicked are taken away and they are unaware before it happens, just as the Flood swept away the wicked. That is the comparison Christ uses and that is clearly what He says in vs. 39. The object of verse 39 are the wicked, not Noah.

There is NOTHING Pre Trib about this passage. The Trib is over back in Verse 29. The war is over, the saints have been overcome, evil rules the day. Sorry my friend, you are one backed into a corner. You have this passage completely 180 degrees out-of-phase, you, Tim LaHaye and the rest. We want to be the ones left behind if we are already in the Land. If we are outside the Land, we will be gathered and brought to the Lord to reign with Him.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

LOL we used to quote that too

Christ MAY come soon but we would be fools to just assume it. Our job is to get out and evangelise the world (says an old man who has to care 24 hours a day for a very ill wife and can only do it by computer). We must leave the timing to Him

We Evangelicals Believe it may be SOON, and that generates a SENSE of URGENCY evangelize and do all we can to Support Missionaries, and to witness to others. AND YOU FIND SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT?

Now I know that you don't read what the opponent says:

valiant - Christ MAY come soon

VCO - We Evangelicals Believe it may be SOON, -- AND YOU FIND SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT?

 

[valiant]

I'm sorry and will pray for you and your wife. i know that can be a hard life at times.

Thank you ..................

 

[valiant]

Remember you taught that:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

that is precisely what Caligula did. He sat as god (theos) in temples of god (theos) exalting himself above all gods. He was the man of sin. Thus it was fulfilled within a short of Paul saying it. Others have done similar things since. The point is that we must expect that men will set themselves up as god in opposition to Christ. It may well be that the Thessalonians experienced it first hand..

Revelation 13:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And he requires everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark: the beast’s name or the number of his name.

unwillingness to offer sacrifices to CAESAR and obtain a certificate and quite possibly a mark on hand and forehead meant that people could not trade because the guilds were all involved with emperor worship. On the other hand it may well be that the 'mark' was an invisible one like the mark put on believers in Rev 7 indicating in the case of unbelievers Satanic control of thoughts and actions..

[SUP]18 [/SUP] Here is wisdom: The one who has understanding must calculate the number of the beast, because it is the number of a man. His number is 666.

666 can signify both Caligula and Neron Caesar. It can also indicate Christos soter with a serpent in between, thus a false Messiah.

Revelation 14:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And a third angel followed them and spoke with a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] he will also drink the wine of God’s wrath, which is mixed full strength in the cup of His anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.

this was the destiny of those who offered sacrifices to Caesar.

Revelation 19:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

this is the second Beast of Rev 17 and represents continuing evil empire and false worship. It is they which gather men together in opposition to God only for God to pour judgment on them. whenever Christians endured evil empire and were pressurised with false worship they would draw encouragement from this.

Revelation 20:4 (NIV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

this is describing all whose SOULS have gone to be with Christ in Heaven from 1st century onwards. It includes martyrs and all who have not engaged in false worship. They NOW live and reign with Christ because they have been united with Him in HIS resurrection (the first resurrection). They live and reign with Him into what was then the distant future. We also who are Christians on earth live and reign with Him having been united with Him in His resurrection (Eph 2.5-6). When we die our SOULS go to join our fellow saints in glory.

So tell me, "How popular is Lord Maitreya in England?" Or has that movement died out?

never heard of him.. How is Saint Darby?

 

[valiant]

"The Festival of Booths" also called "The Feast of Tabernacles"

And to think I never knew LOL Pull the other one.

Zechariah 14:16 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

In other words as a consequence of Christ's coming men will go to worship God in the New Jerusalem, and celebrate His goodness towards them. Zechariah had no concept of New Testament worship, and put it in terms of his own day.

How about LEARNING FROM a Jew that used to practice this FEAST before HE became a born again Christian with a Doctorate in Theology.

Don't be patronising. I also have an advanced degree in theology, from a top university, (not just an evangelical seminary). And I don't see how your having been a Jew and a false worshipper gives you any grounds for being heard. It rather indicates that you are still caught up in Judaism.

 

[valiant]

Rev 20 erroneus timing of the 1st resurrection by postribs could be the most glaring twisting of verses ever contrived.

very true and the same is true of pretribs. For the first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ and took place in 1st century AD. The living and reigning with Christ of the SOULS of Christians also took place in 1st century AD and afterwards. It is still going on.

 

[popeye]

very true and the same is true of pretribs. For the first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ and took place in 1st century AD. The living and reigning with Christ of the SOULS of Christians also took place in 1st century AD and afterwards. It is still going on.

For the first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ and took place in 1st century AD.

yes,i would say so

 

[popeye]

very true and the same is true of pretribs. For the first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ and took place in 1st century AD. The living and reigning with Christ of the SOULS of Christians also took place in 1st century AD and afterwards. It is still going on.

the same is true of pretribs.

an example please

 

[popeye]

well if you check Mark and Luke those statements are missing from both. Mark - 'tell us when will these things be (the destruction of the temple) and what will be the sign when all these things (the throwing down of the stones of the Temple) are to be accomplished.

Luke - 'Teacher when will this be, and what will be the sign when this (the throwing down of the stones of the Temple) is to take place.?'

This makes clear that the main emphasis on what follows is to be on when the destruction of the Temple they were looking at was to take place.

Jesus reply was initially to emphasise the troubles that were coming, false Messiahs, wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes. These were the beginning of labour pains. The 1st century AD was especially noted for such devastations. Along with this was to be the persecution of Christ's followers.

What then of the destruction of the Temple? Mark tells us (in language similar to Matthew) 'when you see the abomination of desolation set up were it ought not to be (Luke applies this to armies surrounding Jerusalem) --- in those days there will be tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of creation which God created until now, and never shall be'.

So Mark unquestionably links the abomination of desolation and the coming tribulation with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Luke expands on this and reveals that the tribulation will continue through the centuries, as the Jews are scattered among the nations. It includes the progroms, the Holocaust and so on. Noting like it has been or will be seen again. It is all in accord with Deut 28.

Thus Jesus answer to the question about the signs of the end of the age must be seen as applying to what follows the tribulation.


But they have no real grounds for it. It results from a false interpretation of Daniel 9 combined with a distorting of the incidents when 1260 days/42 months are mentioned in Revelation (but never in Daniel) so as to try to make them parallel, which they are not.



Both Jesus and Paul from the beginning said that the church would face tribulation. and it has gone on though the centuries. But the great tribulation of Matt 24 is the tribulation of the Jews from 70 AD to the present day. Nothing has ever been seen like it both for length and, at times, intensity. The great tribulation of Rev 7 refers to the tribulation through the ages which at times has been very intense.



what did 'a thousand years' mean to people in New Testament times? Most were not mathematical. they never used large numbers. They did not need to. To most it simply meant a huge amount of time. This is confirmed by the OT use of 1000. the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50.10 - a huge number of hills). a thousand generations (Deut 7.9; 1 Chron 16.15; - a huge number of generations). Thus to the ordinary reader 'a thousand years' simply meant a huge number of years beyond counting.



So what this is saying is that the SOULS of the saints in mind will live and reign with Christ a huge number of years, just as the saints on earth will be living and reigning with Christ (Eph 2.5-6). They have had their part in HIS resurrection, the first resurrection. Note that there is not even a hint that His reign is on earth.

But then Satan will be let loose (from the Abyss). In Rev 9.11 the king of the angels is let loose from the Abyss whose name is Destruction, along with large numbers of evil spirits. In 17.8 the Beast from the Abyss is let loose. Do you really think that God will keep loosing evil powers from the Abyss to try to make matters worse? These three incidents are surely one and the same. And in two cases they definitely occur before the second coming.

well if you check Mark and Luke those statements are missing from both. Mark - 'tell us when will these things be (the destruction of the temple) and what will be the sign when all these things (the throwing down of the stones of the Temple) are to be accomplished.

Luke - 'Teacher when will this be, and what will be the sign when this (the throwing down of the stones of the Temple) is to take place.?'

This makes clear that the main emphasis on what follows is to be on when the destruction of the Temple they were looking at was to take place.

Jesus reply was initially to emphasise the troubles that were coming, false Messiahs, wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes. These were the beginning of labour pains. The 1st century AD was especially noted for such devastations. Along with this was to be the persecution of Christ's followers.

What then of the destruction of the Temple? Mark tells us (in language similar to Matthew) 'when you see the abomination of desolation set up were it ought not to be (Luke applies this to armies surrounding Jerusalem) --- in those days there will be tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of creation which God created until now, and never shall be'.

So Mark unquestionably links the abomination of desolation and the coming tribulation with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Luke expands on this and reveals that the tribulation will continue through the centuries, as the Jews are scattered among the nations. It includes the progroms, the Holocaust and so on. Noting like it has been or will be seen again. It is all in accord with Deut 28.

Thus Jesus answer to the question about the signs of the end of the age must be seen as applying to what follows the tribulation.

This is flawed ,as the first horseman released is the AC and he/it begins the GT.

"What restrains will restrain untill he is taken out of the way"

The AC has not been revealed yet.

You even say you left out the text in matthew to make that historicist model work.

 

[popeye]

I am getting nailed?? Another strong delusion of yours perhaps? First, set your mind as if there is one return of Christ after the Tribulation. I know, it's hard for you to do, but amuse me just this once. Close your eyes (after reading this paragraph) and envision this the way I am telling it. The world has just gone through the worst Tribulation ever. Israel is shattered, the church has been wiped out. The Beast and its Islamic extremists have gained power over all of the Middle East, much of Africa, Europe and Asia. Only a small remnant of believers remain. For many all hope is lost except for the faithful few who anxiously await the return of the Lord. When the Lord comes, He comes with Great Wrath and Vengeance and Judgment. Once you have your mind wrapped around the scenario I just provided now read those passages again with my explanation of what they mean below.

36. The Day and Hour that the Lord comes, nobody knows. But we certainly know the season as we just went through the GT.
37. When the Son of Man comes, He comes suddenly and without warning to those who do not know him. This is exactly how the Flood came. The wicked had no idea, they thought Noah was crazy. But Noah know, just as the remnant will know. The comparison is perfect.
38. The wicked in Noah's Day were living their lives as normal, clueless about the Flood to come. The wicked after the GT will also be living as normal, clueless about the Wrath of the Lord to come. They killed most of the Jews and Christians and can now live the lives they want without being told its wrong.
39. When Christ returns, His angels forcefully remove all wicked from the Land where He will reign (expanded Israel).
40. The wicked are taken outside the Lord's territory, they are separated as the "Goats." The one left is the righteous who remain with the Lord. See Dan 12:2-3.
41. Another example of vs 40.
42. Again, even those of us who know the signs do not know the specific hour (or day) the Lord will return but we will know the season and likely even the year.

The wicked are taken away and they are unaware before it happens, just as the Flood swept away the wicked. That is the comparison Christ uses and that is clearly what He says in vs. 39. The object of verse 39 are the wicked, not Noah.

There is NOTHING Pre Trib about this passage. The Trib is over back in Verse 29. The war is over, the saints have been overcome, evil rules the day. Sorry my friend, you are one backed into a corner. You have this passage completely 180 degrees out-of-phase, you, Tim LaHaye and the rest. We want to be the ones left behind if we are already in the Land. If we are outside the Land, we will be gathered and brought to the Lord to reign with Him.

37. When the Son of Man comes, He comes suddenly and without warning to those who do not know him. This is exactly how the Flood came. The wicked had no idea, they thought Noah was crazy. But Noah know, just as the remnant will know. The comparison is perfect.

All you are proving is that you are wrong.

You take a preflood/pretrib event (noah)and tranpose it to the end of the flood OVER AND OVER.

How many times do i have to tell you,that in order for you to use thaat alagory to fit the postrib model....YOU NEED A POSTFLOOD EVENT.
Why do you keep beating this contrived dead horse of yours?????


Wicked are taken????
Lets see if they are piled where they lay,or if Jesus swooshes them away shall we?
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

see that? they are killed along with their horses at armegeddon.

All those theories are messed up dude.
There is no "wicked taken"

"tares" won't work for postrib either,because it says "THEY ARE BURNED" which places that gathering after the 1k.

 

[valiant]

This is flawed ,as the first horseman released is the AC and he/it begins the GT.

The first horseman on the while horse represents the going forth of false Messiahs in 1st century AD as declared by Jesus in Matt 24.5, the red horseman is the wars of Matt 24.6, the black horseman is the famines Matt 24.7, the pale horseman is the famines, pestilences and earthquakes of Matt 24.7. These were the BEGINNINGS of birth pangs. They were followed by the destruction o the Temple

"What restrains will restrain untill he is taken out of the way"

This is describing the restraining angel who restrains Satan during this age.

The AC has not been revealed yet.

Soooo?

You even say you left out the text in matthew to make that historicist model work.

LOL you see what you want to see. I said nothing of the kind. But at lest you are admitting that Mark and Luke together with the first statement in Matthew favour the historical model. you are getting there

 

[VCO]

No one knows when Jesus is coming back. Not even he knows when he is coming back. Only God knows. Even the Bible says that. I don't get caught up in this kind of discussion because of that. We all try and figure out when he's coming back but no one knows so what's the point? The more important question should be are we ready to see him when he comes back?
I know I'm looking forward to that day when he comes back!

Only the Father Knows, for a reason. GOD was in Jesus reconciling the World to HIMSELF. But it is correct to say only the Father knows, because the JEWISH Wedding Traditions DICTATE that only the Father has the right to say when "The New Dwelling Place is finished, go get your Bride."

 

[VCO]

The first horseman on the while horse represents the going forth of false Messiahs in 1st century AD as declared by Jesus in Matt 24.5, the red horseman is the wars of Matt 24.6, the black horseman is the famines Matt 24.7, the pale horseman is the famines, pestilences and earthquakes of Matt 24.7. These were the BEGINNINGS of birth pangs. They were followed by the destruction o the Temple




This is describing the restraining angel who restrains Satan during this age.



Soooo?



LOL you see what you want to see. I said nothing of the kind. But at lest you are admitting that Mark and Luke together with the first statement in Matthew favour the historical model. you are getting there

You have got to be kidding me, and you call yourself a Baptist? Every Baptist that I know and have heard, teaches that it is the HOLY SPIRIT THAT IS RESTRAINING THE ANTICHRIST FROM COMING TO FULL POWER NOW.

 

[SilverFanng]

Not for me,the word of God testifies for me.
You have chosen the path of least truth.That is why YOUR DOCTRINE drains you.

You in fact VERIFY that I am on the right path.
You have no understanding of the biggest event about to happen.THE GATHERING OF THE BRIDE BY THE GROOM.
You are unaware that the GT is a time of Jacobs trouble (Jewish trouble),and that the rapture will mark the end of the Gentile church's time on earth.
Get one of your teachers to expound on the 10 virgin parable and get ready to laugh,because they ABSOLUTELY MUST GET REALLY CREATIVE.

Ask yourself "why is the AC COMISSIONED THE MURDER THE SAINTS?"
"Why does he HAVE TO overcome them?"
"Why are the martyrs no longer "under the altar" " (in heaven,where they had to be under it untill their number is complete)
"why did jesus build mansions in heaven,only to take his bride back to earth,to a war"
"why did postribs have to INVENT the uturn at Jesus 2 coming?"
"why do potribs HAVE TO TWIST rev 20 into the timing of the 1st resurrection,when it is a no brainer it is nowhere near the 1st resurrection?"
The groom/bride dimension that your side leaves out is a game changer and a slam dunk.

Brother, you've never actually paid attention to God's word, have you?

One of the greatest men of God of all time wanted to die. He had one friend we know of and many of his own people wanted wanted him dead. Eventually he even felt like giving up due to his unending feeling that he was alone in worshiping God, until God showed him that there were others, but we are not even told if he met these others. His name was Elijah. The strongest followers of God must be hated by the world even when they've done nothing wrong. If that isn't the case then how can we claim to walk in Jesus Christ's footsteps? Love your neighbor, even as he tries to kill you.

 

[SilverFanng]

No one knows when Jesus is coming back. Not even he knows when he is coming back. Only God knows. Even the Bible says that. I don't get caught up in this kind of discussion because of that. We all try and figure out when he's coming back but no one knows so what's the point? The more important question should be are we ready to see him when he comes back?
I know I'm looking forward to that day when he comes back!

We are not debating when He is returning. At least I am not. We are discussing the validity of the rapture theory that is taught as doctrine though the notion of it has only been around for approximately 200 years. I am questioning if you even read any of this forum.