When does the rapture occur?

[SilverFanng]

Dude,you are getting nailed so bad on simple exegesis.

Read it slowly;
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The "one taken" dimension starts AND ENDS with "noone knows WHEN HE IS COMING"

You now,in your creative painting yourself into a corner have the "one taken,one left" FALSELY in the millineum.
Jesus knew someone would try and invent that non event.

You blatantly twisted the thing.............ONCE AGAIN

I already told you once b4 that the flood example/story is PREFLOOD/PRETRIB.
Why can you not see that there is NOTHING POSTFLOOD? (no war,noone killed,NOTHING)
.........and yet you try and MAKE IT FIT.

38*For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Why do you keep not mentioning this verse? Christ mentioned that to explain that in the days before the Great Tribulation mankind would go back to that level of depravity. And so they would have to be put out of their evil ways by death. It is not a reference to rapture at all. It is a warning of punishment for God does not send punishment without first sending a warning to repent.

 

[SilverFanng]

Revelation 20:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [SUP]2[/SUP] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [SUP]3[/SUP] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6[/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


"I thought that this was a 'no-brainer'..."


The first resurrection occurs before the 1000-year reign of Christ.

Thank you. And God bless you.

 

[SilverFanng]

"THIS" Only maryrs? only martyrs are resurrected" 1st resurrrection and millineal reign is martyrs only?

My bible reads "dead in christ",which would include all IN CHRIST,not exclude.

To top it off since we have to take it to mean what you guys erroneously impose,then the martyrs of the bible are also excluded.They never saw the mark and consequently had no opportunity to refuse it.

That is why you guys are once again wrong,because you just ARBITRARILY ascribe mess to what should be obvious.

And now you have seen the beginning of understanding. Everyone other than those who reject the mark of the beast stay dead until the judgement day at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.

 

[SilverFanng]

This is flawed ,as the first horseman released is the AC and he/it begins the GT.

"What restrains will restrain untill he is taken out of the way"

The AC has not been revealed yet.

You even say you left out the text in matthew to make that historicist model work.

Actually I have found some theologians have more recently come out saying that it could be that the white horseman is the false church in general. I don't mean islam or anything like that. They suggested that shortly after Christ ascended, a false Christianity (even though it wasn't a popular name back then) was formed and over the centuries has tried subverting the true Christianity. I'm not pointing fingers one way or the other. Just providing an interpretation that deserves to be looked at. Maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. But we need to be objective when analyzing ALL prophecy.

 

[SilverFanng]

Also, can everyone please keep your credentials and your supposed brilliance to yourselves? We are supposed to be giving glory to God. Not ourselves. Heck, it shouldn't even matter what any of our educations are or our stations in life are. Nehemiah was chosen by God to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. He had no background in construction, leadership, or military. He was cupboard to the king of Babylon. A man of a modest background who made sure the king of the nation who conquered his people wasn't poisoned. It shouldn't matter who the smartest person here is for the Lord chooses the meek and the overlooked and the weak to do His will and share His word. All you do by flaunting yourselves like that is chase away anyone who might have otherwise been saved.

Now let's try and get back on topic.

 

[VCO]

that is precisely what Caligula did. He sat as god (theos) in temples of god (theos) exalting himself above all gods. He was the man of sin. Thus it was fulfilled within a short of Paul saying it. Others have done similar things since. The point is that we must expect that men will set themselves up as god in opposition to Christ. It may well be that the Thessalonians experienced it first hand..

unwillingness to offer sacrifices to CAESAR and obtain a certificate and quite possibly a mark on hand and forehead meant that people could not trade because the guilds were all involved with emperor worship. On the other hand it may well be that the 'mark' was an invisible one like the mark put on believers in Rev 7 indicating in the case of unbelievers Satanic control of thoughts and actions..

666 can signify both Caligula and Neron Caesar. It can also indicate Christos soter with a serpent in between, thus a false Messiah.

this was the destiny of those who offered sacrifices to Caesar.

this is the second Beast of Rev 17 and represents continuing evil empire and false worship. It is they which gather men together in opposition to God only for God to pour judgment on them. whenever Christians endured evil empire and were pressurised with false worship they would draw encouragement from this.

this is describing all whose SOULS have gone to be with Christ in Heaven from 1st century onwards. It includes martyrs and all who have not engaged in false worship. They NOW live and reign with Christ because they have been united with Him in HIS resurrection (the first resurrection). They live and reign with Him into what was then the distant future. We also who are Christians on earth live and reign with Him having been united with Him in His resurrection (Eph 2.5-6). When we die our SOULS go to join our fellow saints in glory.

never heard of him.. How is Saint Darby?

WOW, you are throwing me one surprise after another. First let me ask you a serious question. Are all of these strange (to me) theological positions what an English BAPTIST Seminary taught you, or just a result of your own Bible Studies after you were ordained?

Where on earth do you get "temples" plural? The Scripture says the Temple of GOD singular. Their have only been Two of them so far, but the JEWS are in the process of preparing to build a THIRD TEMPLE over the Past several years. We believe that is a specific Prophecy about the Third Temple.

We believe the MARK 666 is only an Identification mark of individual men, similar to our Social Security Numbers, only it will be comprised of six digits-six digits-six digits. We believe the most likely form of the Mark will be an injectable ultra micro chip and they have them perfected now that are nearly as small as a grain of salt.

The last that I heard is these RFID micro chips are currently being tested in Florida on Alzheimer patients. To store personal I.D. info and medical records. The current embedded number on the chips is based on 15 digits. I suspect, that when they go to replacing all bank cards and credit cards with these chips world wide, it will necessitate a larger number, and final form of that identification number will be 18 digits (three groups of six digits).

As for the Souls under the alter, are you SURE you can read the King's English? It says specifically that they are the souls of those BEHEADED. I am sorry that mass beheadings do not fit your theology, but that is what makes it the GREAT TRIBULATION.




Does it bother me that you believe different than I do? NO! That is between you and GOD.
What bother's me is that you may have been teaching these things to young Christians who are tossed to and fro by every wind of Doctrine.

 

[VCO]

. . .
{"How popular is Lord Maitreya in England?"}
never heard of him.. How is Saint Darby?

Sorry, I thought everyone surely had heard of him. I have been tracking that false prophet for over 20 years. I have kept a file of newspaper clippings to prove the things He was publishing, even in small town US News Papers. He is without a doubt a type of Antichrist at the very least, but of course there have been MANY types of Antichrists. The reason that I was so sure that you had heard of him is because he lived in LONDON, and was very popular in Europe. He was one of MAJOR players in the NEW AGE MOVEMENT. He even claimed: "Christ is a Position and not a person. Two thousand years ago Jesus of Nazareth held that Position, now I DO. You have got to forget about Jesus of Nazareth, and follow me."

That is what we believe the Antichrist himself will be like, and at the same time he will be popular with the Jews and the Muslims, and also he will be the Supreme Leader of the revived ROMAN EMPIRE, the European Union. So, would I be correct to assume that the New Age Movement has died out in England?

 

[valiant]

WOW, you are throwing me one surprise after another. First let me ask you a serious question. Are all of these strange (to me) theological positions what an English BAPTIST Seminary taught you, or just a result of your own Bible Studies after you were ordained?

It was an interdenominational seminary and these 'strange' theological positions are quite standard in the UK. We do not go by Darby. We go by the New Testament. In fact there are large numbers of amillennialists in the US who hold similar views. I suspect that you are cloistered in your own little world.

I grew up on Scofield as a young man, but turned from pretrib when I discovered all the contradictions and twisting of Greek that it required, together with its lack of regard for context. You Americans waste so much time arguing abut inessentials that you never contemplate the whole. Look at MATTHEW 24 in parallel with Mark 13 and Luke 21 and if you are open to truth you will soon see that your exegesis is wrong as far as 'great tribulation' (no article) is concerned.

Then read Revelation asking yourself what message for the church of John's day did it have? .

Where on earth do you get "temples" plural?

'The temple of theos' covers all pagan temples seen as one. It is a compound singular. He will worship in 'the temple of God' wherever situated proclaiming himself to be theos. It is not referring to the Jerusalem Temple which ceased long ago and no longer has any place in God's eyes. Why do you think its rebuilding is never mentioned in the New Testament? God cursed it in 70 AD. He had already replaced it with Jesus Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the millennium, ideas of a rebuilt temple were unknown to Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James. The temple was history.

Caligula displayed himself in one temple of theos after another.

The Scripture says the Temple of GOD singular.

Singular because representative of all temples of theos.

Their have only been Two of them so far, but the JEWS are in the process of preparing to build a THIRD TEMPLE over the Past several years. We believe that is a specific Prophecy about the Third Temple.

How can the activity of unbelieving Jews be a prophecy? You are living in a dream world. There is no suggestion in the whole of the New Testament that a third temple will be built, and such a temple would be an abhorrence to God. God's people now worship in 'the true Tabernacle not made with hands' (Heb 8.5; 9.11). Indeed the writer tells us that if there is a temple on earth there is no entry into the heavenly Tabernacle (Heb 9.8). I prefer to use the heavenly Tabernacle as in Heb 10.19 ff

We believe the MARK 666 is only an Identification mark of individual men, similar to our Social Security Numbers, only it will be comprised of six digits-six digits-six digits. We believe the most likely form of the Mark will be an injectable ultra micro chip and they have them perfected now that are nearly as small as a grain of salt.

well people believe all kinds of odd things once they vary from Scripture.

As for the Souls under the alter, are you SURE you can read the King's English? It says specifically that they are the souls of those BEHEADED. I am sorry that mass beheadings do not fit your theology, but that is what makes it the GREAT TRIBULATION.

they are not 'under the altar' in Rev 20 they are living and reigning with Christ. so maybe its YOU who cannot read the Queen's English? Mass beheadings occurred in 1st century AD (Paul was one) so what's your problem?. That was what indicated that people in those days were going through great tribulation in 1st century AD. And when they arrived in Heaven their SOULS did not need heads. By the way SOULS don't have physical heads lol. Or do you think Paul is now in Heaven without his head?

Does it bother me that you believe different than I do? NO! That is between you and GOD.
What bother's me is that you may have been teaching these things to young Christians who are tossed to and fro by every wind of Doctrine.

Of course it doesn't worry me. The Holy Spirit delivered me from Darbyism many years ago.

I suggest you come to England and ask our young people what they think about the great tribulation. Unless they have been infected by American evangelists most of them won't know what you are talking about. Darbyism is not in vogue here. We proclaim the Scriptures which does not mention the great tribulation. We proclaim the second coming of Christ, but on the whole we leave Revelation (and much of Daniel) to the fanatics

 

[valiant]

Sorry, I thought everyone surely had heard of him. I have been tracking that false prophet for over 20 years. I have kept a file of newspaper clippings to prove the things He was publishing, even in small town US News Papers. He is without a doubt a type of Antichrist at the very least, but of course there have been MANY types of Antichrists. The reason that I was so sure that you had heard of him is because he lived in LONDON, and was very popular in Europe. He was one of MAJOR players in the NEW AGE MOVEMENT. He even claimed: "Christ is a Position and not a person. Two thousand years ago Jesus of Nazareth held that Position, now I DO. You have got to forget about Jesus of Nazareth, and follow me."

That is what we believe the Antichrist himself will be like, and at the same time he will be popular with the Jews and the Muslims, and also he will be the Supreme Leader of the revived ROMAN EMPIRE, the European Union. So, would I be correct to assume that the New Age Movement has died out in England?

we don't take much notice of the new age movement over here. to us they are an oddity, a small minority sect that is mainly ignored. Of course London hosts many strange sects. But they have little impact except among their own followers. They don't get much publicity here.

I am not convinced that the European Union has anything to do with a revived Roman empire. It is centred in Brussels not Rome. And why exclude the huge section of the Roman Empire which is in Asia? Any revived Roman Empire could equally happen in the Middle East, possibly in combination with the Pope. But it is all speculation.

 

[valiant]

You have got to be kidding me, and you call yourself a Baptist? Every Baptist that I know and have heard, teaches that it is the HOLY SPIRIT THAT IS RESTRAINING THE ANTICHRIST FROM COMING TO FULL POWER NOW.

If it had meant the Holy Spirit don't you think that would have been made clear? Whatever tribulation comes don't you think Christians will need the Holy Spirit as never before? Why should He be removed? He has been with redeemed man since creation. Do you think God will desert His people now?

'the one who restrains' is clearly connected with eschatology, and the obvious candidate is the restraining angel who restrains Satan's activity (Rev 20.1-3).

By the way I don't 'call myself a Baptist' . I call myself a Christian.

 

[GaryA]

"THIS" Only maryrs? only martyrs are resurrected" 1st resurrrection and millineal reign is martyrs only?

My bible reads "dead in christ",which would include all IN CHRIST,not exclude.

To top it off since we have to take it to mean what you guys erroneously impose,then the martyrs of the bible are also excluded.They never saw the mark and consequently had no opportunity to refuse it.

That is why you guys are once again wrong,because you just ARBITRARILY ascribe mess to what should be obvious.

I believe you have missed the intended meaning of my post. I will try to explain later when I have enough time...

 

[GaryA]

Look at MATTHEW 24 in parallel with Mark 13 and Luke 21 and if you are open to truth you will soon see that your exegesis is wrong as far as 'great tribulation' (no article) is concerned.

Indeed. Have you seen my 'Olivet Discourse' chart? ( Look in my signature. )

 

[PlainWord]

All you are proving is that you are wrong.

You take a preflood/pretrib event (noah)and tranpose it to the end of the flood OVER AND OVER.

How many times do i have to tell you,that in order for you to use thaat alagory to fit the postrib model....YOU NEED A POSTFLOOD EVENT.
Why do you keep beating this contrived dead horse of yours?????


Wicked are taken????
Lets see if they are piled where they lay,or if Jesus swooshes them away shall we?
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

see that? they are killed along with their horses at armegeddon.

All those theories are messed up dude.
There is no "wicked taken"

"tares" won't work for postrib either,because it says "THEY ARE BURNED" which places that gathering after the 1k.

Please, pretty please with sugar on top: Quit linking the Flood to the Tribulation!!!

Christ is not linking the Flood to the Trib as Christ is not responsible for the Tribulation, Satan is. Christ is linking the Flood (Devine Punishment) to His Return (Devine Punishment)

Thus, I have a FLOOD EVENT!!!! Please slow down and read this carefully. Take a deep breath and try to follow me.

THE FLOOD EVENT is the WRATH RETURN OF THE LORD.

Now let this sink in for a moment before you jump to type a response. Count to 100 and read the above over and over. Once this has sunken in, please continue...

Tribulation = Satan abusing/killing God's People = Small event (COMPARED TO DAY OF THE LORD)
Return of Lord = Wrath = Wicked killed = BIG EVENT = LIKE NOAH'S FLOOD

The Tribulation period is wickedness on steriods. The world will be out of control with all kinds of sin. You have Sexual Depravity distorting God's Laws (Sodom) and you have Idol Worship/Islam (Egypt) on massive scales. They are not working together directly as Islam hates homosexuality, but they are both evil spirits, waging war against the Church and Israel (2 witnesses).

But, Satan's Tribulation is nothing compared to the what happens when the Lord returns after the Tribulation. Read it for yourself. I know it's hard for you to understand the way your mind has been programmed, but please try again. The concept being taught below in Rev 18 is a vengeful Lord. Why is He mad, because Satan and evil have been killing His servants, especially our brothers and sisters who live inside the Beast's Kingdom...

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
The Lord comes when???? In an hour and day "they" don't expect. All of His wrath comes in ONE DAY - AKA, The Day of the Lord.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

The analogy CHRIST uses (not me, I merely repeat) is that His Coming will be like the Flood was to the wicked of Noah's Day. The wicked on the DAY OF THE LORD, will be "swept away" (again, His words, not mine)

All those theories are messed up dude.
There is no "wicked taken"

No wicked taken???? Are you seriously saying that???? I want to show you these verses again. Please don't tell me you can't see the wicked being "taken."

“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them...

[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, (what is being taken out? The wicked) and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire.

Who are growing among the Jews?

...the flood came and took them all away, (not Noah, the Wicked were swept away) so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]51 [/SUP]and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these (Goats) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Where are the goats going??? To everlasting fire.

Goats + Tares + Wicked = Going to everlasting fire

So ask yourself again, are the wicked being taken anywhere and if so WHERE? But the "wicked" aren't all the wicked, they are a specific group.

The Goat Nations are Muslim Nations

Who will fight against Israel??? The Goat Nations + Russia

What happens to them???

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

Do you not see the above being "burned?"

Who is the Beast from the Sea?? Islamic Army from Lion, Leopard, Bear Nations.

Who is the false prophet? Muhammad

What becomes of them???

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So again, we have the Muslim Nations and their False Prophet who they have been following cast alive into the Lake of Fire.

What happens to the rest of those at Armageddon?

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

So, we have two groups of wicked at Armageddon. Those with the Mark of the Beast of Islam and the rest who fought against Jerusalem (mainly Russia). Those with the "mark" are cast into the Lake of Fire, the rest were killed with the Sword of the Lord.

Then you have your 1,000 year reign. There are still sinners on earth clearly for Satan to deceive again once the 1,000 years are over. So, what happens to the wicked at the end of the 1,000 years?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them...

Those deceived at the end of the millennium will be devoured by fire. They are burned up. GONE. Remembered no more.

Then what happens to the Devil?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Did you catch that? The devil is cast into the Lake of Fire where the Beast (Islamic Peoples who had the mark and were fighting against Jerusalem) and the False Prophet were already. I know, I gave you a lot to digest. I encourage you to let this sink in for awhile before replying.

 

[VCO]

And now you have seen the beginning of understanding. Everyone other than those who reject the mark of the beast stay dead until the judgement day at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.

But the First resurrection the Resurrection of the Righteous happens in phases: The Dead in Christ First, the Changing in the Twinkling of the Eye of the living Saints Second, and the Resurrection of the Martyred Saints of the Tribulation Period Third.

NO WHERE does it say that the Resurrection of the Righteous happens all at the same moment. In fact it says the OPPOSITE.


1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (YLT)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
[SUP]22 [/SUP] for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,


NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

 

[valiant]

But the First resurrection the Resurrection of the Righteous happens in phases: The Dead in Christ First, the Changing in the Twinkling of the Eye of the living Saints Second, and the Resurrection of the Martyred Saints of the Tribulation Period Third.

NO WHERE does it say that the Resurrection of the Righteous happens all at the same moment.

For the HOUR IS COMING when ALL who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.' (John 5.29).

That reads like a specific time to me, NOT a series of events.

In fact it says the OPPOSITE.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

How does that disagree with a general resurrection, some to life and some to judgment?

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (YLT)

[SUP]20 [/SUP] And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
[SUP]22 [/SUP] for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,


NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

So as we all agree Christ would be raised first, and then all His saints and all who are to be judged will be raised at His coming. That fits John 5.28-29 perfectly.

 

[VCO]

It was an interdenominational seminary and these 'strange' theological positions are quite standard in the UK. We do not go by Darby. We go by the New Testament. In fact there are large numbers of amillennialists in the US who hold similar views. I suspect that you are cloistered in your own little world.

I grew up on Scofield as a young man, but turned from pretrib when I discovered all the contradictions and twisting of Greek that it required, together with its lack of regard for context. You Americans waste so much time arguing abut inessentials that you never contemplate the whole. Look at MATTHEW 24 in parallel with Mark 13 and Luke 21 and if you are open to truth you will soon see that your exegesis is wrong as far as 'great tribulation' (no article) is concerned.

Then read Revelation asking yourself what message for the church of John's day did it have? .



'The temple of theos' covers all pagan temples seen as one. It is a compound singular. He will worship in 'the temple of God' wherever situated proclaiming himself to be theos. It is not referring to the Jerusalem Temple which ceased long ago and no longer has any place in God's eyes. Why do you think its rebuilding is never mentioned in the New Testament? God cursed it in 70 AD. He had already replaced it with Jesus Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the millennium, ideas of a rebuilt temple were unknown to Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James. The temple was history.

Caligula displayed himself in one temple of theos after another.



Singular because representative of all temples of theos.



How can the activity of unbelieving Jews be a prophecy? You are living in a dream world. There is no suggestion in the whole of the New Testament that a third temple will be built, and such a temple would be an abhorrence to God. God's people now worship in 'the true Tabernacle not made with hands' (Heb 8.5; 9.11). Indeed the writer tells us that if there is a temple on earth there is no entry into the heavenly Tabernacle (Heb 9.8). I prefer to use the heavenly Tabernacle as in Heb 10.19 ff



well people believe all kinds of odd things once they vary from Scripture.



they are not 'under the altar' in Rev 20 they are living and reigning with Christ. so maybe its YOU who cannot read the Queen's English? Mass beheadings occurred in 1st century AD (Paul was one) so what's your problem?. That was what indicated that people in those days were going through great tribulation in 1st century AD. And when they arrived in Heaven their SOULS did not need heads. By the way SOULS don't have physical heads lol. Or do you think Paul is now in Heaven without his head?





Of course it doesn't worry me. The Holy Spirit delivered me from Darbyism many years ago.

I suggest you come to England and ask our young people what they think about the great tribulation. Unless they have been infected by American evangelists most of them won't know what you are talking about. Darbyism is not in vogue here. We proclaim the Scriptures which does not mention the great tribulation. We proclaim the second coming of Christ, but on the whole we leave Revelation (and much of Daniel) to the fanatics

I whole heartedly disagree with most you theological positions on the End Times. In Fact you have the strangest ideas that I have seen in a very long time. I believe literally what GOD says, and you believe something else and I am not going to continue to figure out why. I can't blame it on the Scotts either, as my Grandmother was Scottish and she CERTAINLY believed like I do. Your explanation of souls not needing Heads, is the ABSOLUTE STRANGEST CONCEPT that I have ever heard from anyone. JUST TO AVOID BELIEVING THE OBVIOUS, that HE Literally meant that Antichrist will order the literal beheadings of ALL WHO REFUSE TO WORSHIP HIM AS THEIR GOD. If I had not been posting to you personally, I would find your position nothing more than a made up yarn that someone was using to pull my leg. You will find out soon enough, that you were led astray by false teachers.

 

[valiant]

I whole heartedly disagree with most you theological positions on the End Times.

well you would you are a Darbyite pre-tribber.

In Fact you have the strangest ideas that I have seen in a very long time. I believe literally what GOD says,

no you don't lol you believe the interpretation of what God says fed into you by your church and its seminary.

and you believe something else and I am not going to continue to figure out why.

because it is what the Scripture teaches.

I can't blame it on the Scotts either, as my Grandmother was Scottish and she CERTAINLY believed like I do.

well even the Scots can be wrong lol

Your explanation of souls not needing Heads, is the ABSOLUTE STRANGEST CONCEPT that I have ever heard from anyone. JUST TO AVOID BELIEVING THE OBVIOUS, that HE Literally meant that Antichrist will order the literal beheadings of ALL WHO REFUSE TO WORSHIP HIM AS THEIR GOD.

you just don't read what your opponents say do you? I made clear that I recognised that people were literally beheaded including Paul. But that was their physical bodies. Do you really think that SOULS need heads? They are spirit not physical. Why do they need heads? You are too tied to the physical. What about the saints martyred at Lyons whose bodies and heads were crushed into fragments, burned and scattered in the river so as to prevent their resurrection? Don't you believe that they went to be with Christ when they died? Do you think what had happened to them made any difference? You limit the power of God

If I had not been posting to you personally, I would find your position nothing more than a made up yarn that someone was using to pull my leg. You will find out soon enough, that you were led astray by false teachers.

LOL you will get a pleasant surprise when you are raptured or taken to be with Christ to discover that you do not have to participate in a failed millennium where its king is unable to control his subjects, but will go straight to be with the Lord in the new spiritual heaven and earth when this heaven and earth have passed way and where Christ is totally triumphant...

 

[SilverFanng]

Guys this is getting unreal. You two have been arguing with each other for days now. And some of it comes across to me as spiteful. Maybe the other guy is wrong. Maybe he's right, but the two of you have lost sight of God in all of this.

I know we are supposed to be sharpening iron on iron and steel on steel but without any give and take you aren't making any progress on each other or yourselves. It is obvious you came here to lecture. Unless you address the problems with the states of your hearts so that you are receptive to learning you will not teach anyone anything other than to hate. In this way you anger God as you slander His name.

If you don't believe this is true then prove me wrong and tell me something each of you has learned from the other.

 

[valiant]

Guys this is getting unreal. You two have been arguing with each other for days now. And some of it comes across to me as spiteful. Maybe the other guy is wrong. Maybe he's right, but the two of you have lost sight of God in all of this.

I know we are supposed to be sharpening iron on iron and steel on steel but without any give and take you aren't making any progress on each other or yourselves. It is obvious you came here to lecture. Unless you address the problems with the states of your hearts so that you are receptive to learning you will not teach anyone anything other than to hate. In this way you anger God as you slander His name.

If you don't believe this is true then prove me wrong and tell me something each of you has learned from the other.

patience ? lol

 

[valiant]

Guys this is getting unreal. You two have been arguing with each other for days now. And some of it comes across to me as spiteful. Maybe the other guy is wrong. Maybe he's right, but the two of you have lost sight of God in all of this.

I know we are supposed to be sharpening iron on iron and steel on steel but without any give and take you aren't making any progress on each other or yourselves. It is obvious you came here to lecture. Unless you address the problems with the states of your hearts so that you are receptive to learning you will not teach anyone anything other than to hate. In this way you anger God as you slander His name.

If you don't believe this is true then prove me wrong and tell me something each of you has learned from the other.

you must remember that we both have in mind others who read what is written here They need to see both sides and choose.