When does the rapture occur?

[GaryA]

Revelation 20:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [SUP]2[/SUP] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [SUP]3[/SUP] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6[/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


"I thought that this was a 'no-brainer'..."


The first resurrection occurs before the 1000-year reign of Christ.

"THIS" Only maryrs? only martyrs are resurrected" 1st resurrrection and millineal reign is martyrs only?

My bible reads "dead in christ",which would include all IN CHRIST,not exclude.

To top it off since we have to take it to mean what you guys erroneously impose,then the martyrs of the bible are also excluded.They never saw the mark and consequently had no opportunity to refuse it.

That is why you guys are once again wrong,because you just ARBITRARILY ascribe mess to what should be obvious.

The word 'this' - in bright red - refers to phrase 'the first resurrection' - in bright red - in the verses above it.

You made a comment about the timing of the first resurrection.

I was stating when i believe the passage tells us that occurs.

 

[VCO]

For the HOUR IS COMING when ALL who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.' (John 5.29).

That reads like a specific time to me, NOT a series of events.




How does that disagree with a general resurrection, some to life and some to judgment?



So as we all agree Christ would be raised first, and then all His saints and all who are to be judged will be raised at His coming. That fits John 5.28-29 perfectly.

See, even MORE 180 degree teachings from what the BIBLE says and I believe.

The Resurrection of the Righteous comes BEFORE the 70th Week of Daniel begins, the resurrection of the beheaded Saints of that 70th Week of Daniel (the GREAT TRIBULATION) happens immediately after that WEEK of YEARS ends, and ALL OF THE UNBELIEVERS OF ALL TIMES come out of their graves 1000 years later.

Revelation 20:1-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


And exactly what do you mean Christ would be raised first? I would NEVER phrase it that way, I would say, "CHRIST WAS RAISED FIRST!" THAT is a DONE deal, attested to by over 500 witnesses.

 

[VCO]

The word 'this' - in bright red - refers to phrase 'the first resurrection' - in bright red - in the verses above it.

You made a comment about the timing of the first resurrection.

I was stating when i believe the passage tells us that occurs.

Is that deductive reasoning Watson?

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

For the HOUR IS COMING when ALL who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.' (John 5.29).

That reads like a specific time to me, NOT a series of events.

See, even MORE 180 degree teachings from what the BIBLE says and I believe.

Let others judge. I think your math is bad lol. But I won't disagree that what you believe about the resurrection is 180 degrees out.

The Resurrection of the Righteous comes BEFORE the 70th Week of Daniel begins,

And you call that accepting what the Bible says? No wonder you are mixed up. WHERE does the Bible say that? The seventieth seven begins with the death (and resurrection) of Christ and God's renewing of the covenant with His people, that is, ALL who believe in the Messiah. (Dan 9.25-27)

the resurrection of the beheaded Saints of that 70th Week of Daniel (the GREAT TRIBULATION) happens immediately after that WEEK of YEARS ends,

your views get weirder and weirder. The seventieth seven commences with God renewing His covenant with His people (covenant in Daniel always means God's covenant) which is followed by the destruction of the Temple so that sacrifices cease. I fail to see how that connect with beheaded saints. Your view is NOT Scriptural. It is DARBYISM TO THE CORE.

and ALL OF THE UNBELIEVERS OF ALL TIMES come out of their graves 1000 years later.

yes Christ rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven seating Himself on the throne of David (Acts 2.30, 36). Then all who believed in Him were spiritually raised and seated with Him in heavenly places (Eph 2.5-6). This included the SOULS of those who had been taken up to Heaven. IT IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION as all who are in Christ are seen as having been raised with Him spiritually. Then after an indeterminate period of time ('a thousand years') the general physical resurrection will take place of both righteous and unrighteous as described by Jesus (John 5.28-29).

At least my view is backed by Scripture as a whole.

And exactly what do you mean Christ would be raised first? I would NEVER phrase it that way, I would say, "CHRIST WAS RAISED FIRST!" THAT is a DONE deal, attested to by over 500 witnesses.

nit picking. but then you have nothing else to argue with.

 

[popeye]

38*For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Why do you keep not mentioning this verse? Christ mentioned that to explain that in the days before the Great Tribulation mankind would go back to that level of depravity. And so they would have to be put out of their evil ways by death. It is not a reference to rapture at all. It is a warning of punishment for God does not send punishment without first sending a warning to repent.

before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark

You are,i suppose unaware,that DURING THE GT,hell on earth with millions dead,the sea creatires all dead,stinging scorpions and on and on,you are making a case for life as normal????

 

[popeye]

And now you have seen the beginning of understanding. Everyone other than those who reject the mark of the beast stay dead until the judgement day at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.

The apostle paul also???

You need to rethink that.

 

[popeye]

Actually I have found some theologians have more recently come out saying that it could be that the white horseman is the false church in general. I don't mean islam or anything like that. They suggested that shortly after Christ ascended, a false Christianity (even though it wasn't a popular name back then) was formed and over the centuries has tried subverting the true Christianity. I'm not pointing fingers one way or the other. Just providing an interpretation that deserves to be looked at. Maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. But we need to be objective when analyzing ALL prophecy.

Appears to me you are skirrting a no brainer

 

[popeye]

The word 'this' - in bright red - refers to phrase 'the first resurrection' - in bright red - in the verses above it.

You made a comment about the timing of the first resurrection.

I was stating when i believe the passage tells us that occurs.

yeah,i see what you marked red.

I don't (evidently) see what you "proved"

 

[Reborn]

Actually I have found some theologians have more recently come out saying that it could be that the white horseman is the false church in general. I don't mean islam or anything like that. They suggested that shortly after Christ ascended, a false Christianity (even though it wasn't a popular name back then) was formed and over the centuries has tried subverting the true Christianity. I'm not pointing fingers one way or the other. Just providing an interpretation that deserves to be looked at. Maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. But we need to be objective when analyzing ALL prophecy.

IMO......anytime the word "white" is used in Revelation it represents something pure and Holy....NEVER anything that is the total opposite of it.
Taking into consideration that God is not the author of confusion, this set meaning cannot change..especially in the middle of a Book.

John was told to write down the things that he saw in his time too.
No need to dig too deep on the white horseman.

BTW, Other references to the white horseman later, it is clearly our Lord.
Revelation 6:2 does not state "like" either.
Doesn't change.

 

[valiant]

IMO......anytime the word "white" is used in Revelation it represents something pure and Holy....NEVER anything that is the total opposite of it.

that is the kind of thinking that explains why americans get such funny ideas about revelation. it is quite clear that rev 6.1 ff is following the pattern of matt 24. the white horse with the bow (which fires the evil hours of arrows of Satan) is in contrast with the white horse in rev 19 and represents false messiahs.

 

[Pumicestone]

..... God is not the author of confusion ....

Well he can't have had anything to do with the book of Revelation then.
There are more interpretations of its meaning than you can poke a stick at. All of them 'right' of course.

Just a tad 'confusing' really.

 

[Pumicestone]

.... americans get such funny ideas ....

Now, THAT I agree with !

 

[Elin]

Could you,since you act like you command knowledge and understanding of escatology,show us one postrib rapture verse?

You will find such NT didactics in the OP.

 

[Reborn]

that is the kind of thinking that explains why americans get such funny ideas about revelation. it is quite clear that rev 6.1 ff is following the pattern of matt 24. the white horse with the bow (which fires the evil hours of arrows of Satan) is in contrast with the white horse in rev 19 and represents false messiahs.

Okay. We all have our own opinions.
....and apparently we can bounce around with definitions when its convenient.
Show me anywhere else where the word "white" is associated with something evil in Revelation?
Just that once? Hmm, He IS the author of confusion then.

No. He's consistent.

Well he can't have had anything to do with the book of Revelation then.
There are more interpretations of its meaning than you can poke a stick at. All of them 'right' of course.

Just a tad 'confusing' really.

True. Clever deception by the devil, l would say.
Throw a million interpretations out there, confuse all, get them scared to read it....and eventually not trust a single interpretation....and THEN, believe they themselves or NO ONE can understand it!!! Brilliant. Doubt all and ourselves!

The Book is there for a reason.

If people believe that Revelation can't be truly understood, its because they themselves don't understand it, have put their faith in mans interpretation, that never came to pass....or haven't really tried to read it.
Is that God's fault? No?
Nothing confusing about that.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

that is the kind of thinking that explains why americans get such funny ideas about revelation. it is quite clear that rev 6.1 ff is following the pattern of matt 24. the white horse with the bow (which fires the evil hours of arrows of Satan) is in contrast with the white horse in rev 19 and represents false messiahs.

Okay. We all have our own opinions.
....and apparently we can bounce around with definitions when its convenient.
Show me anywhere else where the word "white" is associated with something evil in Revelation?
Just that once? Hmm, He IS the author of confusion then.

perhaps you should note that the colours of all the horses represent evils. If the white horse did not it would be an exception. Is that not confusing?

 

[valiant]

True. Clever deception by the devil, l would say.
Throw a million interpretations out there, confuse all, get them scared to read it....and eventually not trust a single interpretation....and THEN, believe they themselves or NO ONE can understand it!!! Brilliant. Doubt all and ourselves!

The Book is there for a reason.

If people believe that Revelation can't be truly understood, its because they themselves don't understand it, have put their faith in mans interpretation, that never came to pass....or haven't really tried to read it.
Is that God's fault? No?
Nothing confusing about that.

but for 1800 years it had a clear message for people it is only the 19th century onwards that has resulted in such a multitude of interpretations that it can be made to mean anything to anybody. it is a consequence of this absurd idea that most of God's prophesying was about the last few years of history.

 

[Elin]

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophetic riddles, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophetic riddles in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include unfulfilled prophetic riddles here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these unfulfilled prophetic riddles may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the didactics of the NT Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the didactics of the NT Word of God, apart from what is not certain in unfulfilled prophetic riddles, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasting destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclature is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt & lib) occurring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib),"
means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain NT Word of God, what I find is that

• Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
• at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
• which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
• which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
• which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain didactics of the NT Word of God specifically locate the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled prophetic riddles, we can say that whatever the meanings of any prophetic riddle, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the didactics of the NT Word of God.

There will certainly be only one second coming! the rapture ( during which those alive in Crrist will be caught up [raptured] to meey Jesus in the air after the dead in Christ (not those dead in their sins) are taken up before them;
must be a separate event from the second coming: since at the rapture Jesus does NOT set foot on the earth; but at the second coming He does.

1 Th 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. KJV

Could the rapture not be a parousia type event (1Th 4:15, 5:23, etc.) where the citizens of a town went out of the city to meet an incoming dignitary and accompanied him back into the city?

Could not the saints go out (rise in the air) to meet the descending Christ at the second coming and to accompany him in his continued descent to earth, which would be one event?

 

[popeye]

IMO......anytime the word "white" is used in Revelation it represents something pure and Holy....NEVER anything that is the total opposite of it.
Taking into consideration that God is not the author of confusion, this set meaning cannot change..especially in the middle of a Book.

John was told to write down the things that he saw in his time too.
No need to dig too deep on the white horseman.

BTW, Other references to the white horseman later, it is clearly our Lord.
Revelation 6:2 does not state "like" either.
Doesn't change.

Well,thank God for context.
..........and he that sat on him had a bow. Jesus has no bow
.............and a crown was given unto him. Nobody needs to Give Jeesus a crown.He is crowned.
..........and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Jesus does 1 "conquering" locally at megeddo.

If the 1st horse is jesus,then jesus brings chaos to the earth,for he is followed by the red horse
".....there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."
So,the sword Jesus normally would have, now belongs to this freak on a red horse,aand I suppose Jesus approves of no peace and pple arbitrarily killing each other?????

3rd seal has "black" (must be evil right?).So,we can conclude evil has taken over the worlds economy while Jesus sits helpless?????

It gets even better with the 4th seal,by now Jesus is totally powerless
"..........8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

UH,I know this is taboo,but isn't it a strange coincidence that those seals line up w/pretrib doctrine?
Could us stupid americans have been right all along.????

 

[popeye]

but for 1800 years it had a clear message for people it is only the 19th century onwards that has resulted in such a multitude of interpretations that it can be made to mean anything to anybody. it is a consequence of this absurd idea that most of God's prophesying was about the last few years of history.

it is a consequence of this absurd idea that most of God's prophesying was about the last few years of history.

Uh,that is what you have been preaching my friend,that prophecy has been fulfilled.

 

[popeye]

Okay. We all have our own opinions.
....and apparently we can bounce around with definitions when its convenient.
Show me anywhere else where the word "white" is associated with something evil in Revelation?
Just that once? Hmm, He IS the author of confusion then.

No. He's consistent.



True. Clever deception by the devil, l would say.
Throw a million interpretations out there, confuse all, get them scared to read it....and eventually not trust a single interpretation....and THEN, believe they themselves or NO ONE can understand it!!! Brilliant. Doubt all and ourselves!

The Book is there for a reason.

If people believe that Revelation can't be truly understood, its because they themselves don't understand it, have put their faith in mans interpretation, that never came to pass....or haven't really tried to read it.
Is that God's fault? No?
Nothing confusing about that.

............and yet you place all that confusion hitting the planet after the arrival of Jesus.