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Some professing Christains say that God's law is a curse. What? Why?
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Y
yaright
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Good question; It isn't a random number...as many truths as there are christian religions. In a parable language, Jesus revealed that our love of our church religion has a big influence; so much so that Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love Me more than these?" To address this would fall short of the purpose of this question Jesus asked of Peter. Everything Jesus teaches is meant for the person who wants to know. Jesus said, "...but you do not seek Me, that you may have life." No matter how I interpret these things, the One who I trust most is also the same who said, "I am Truth" I am not saying witness has no value, but Who I point to when I give witness reveals who I trust more than any man, even my bother. I really like your question. It has a cutting edge...
Okay. I think I'm beginning to understand the way some people think salvation through Christ is to be observed.
Starting at the beginning, before the lost believe in Christ, they need to understand the law that God gave to Moses, and see that they are under it, and that they are cursed. The lost soul needs to believe the law is currently bringing a curse on them. (Galatians 3:24) Christians who are to minister to the lost, believe the law has been made void through the death of Christ. It is sinful for a believer to observe the law, for that puts them back under the law, making one righteous (only through Christ) not to observe the law that brings a curse to all unbelievers.
Because of this, the believer must find another way to minister to the lost other than this God given schoolmaster. They can tell the lost that they are under a curse, but can not define the curse because they have never studied the law. So all they can say is that Christ will make the law void for them that brings the curse, and the law will vanish along with the curse if the lost will only believe in Christ.
Now, after salvation, the curse is gone along with the law God gave to Israel via Moses. To observe the law will put us under the law that brings back the curse. This is not to be done, because one will lose their salvation trying to be justified before God by the works of the law.
So the New Covenant is solely for the purpose of totally destroying the Old Covenant curse of the law. So through Christ we can come to the Father, who planned for His instructions to Israel to be destroyed from the beginning, because those instructions bring a predetermined curse, being represented by the history of ancient Israel.
So in summary, the law is an adversary of Christ's fulfillment of the law. It is clear then that God, The Father of Jesus, had determined that His only begotten Son was to destroy His own words He gave to Moses. We now are saved from the curse that God the Father brought in the Old Covenant. God brought the curse in the old days, but now there is no curse. Today disobedience doesn't apply through Christ Jesus as it did in the Old Covenant days before Christ. Now, through Christ Jesus, we have the opportunity to boldly approach the throne of God who was the God of the law and curses, but salvation is Christ's new law of blessings that destroyed His Father's old way. (John 14:6)
All the laws instructing us to conduct ourselves according to God's will, with the exception of the remaining 9 out of the 10 commandments, along with the Levitical priesthood with its temple ordinances, have been destroyed through Christ. This makes God responsible for the curse of the law instead of us. Do I have this right?
Wait a minute. God is still the God of the law and curses for the lost. Why would the lost want to believe in a repressive God such as that, any more than a believer would? If a believer backslides into sin by observing the law, henceforth putting themselves “under the law” why shouldn't a non believer just bypass Galatians 4:24, and go right straight to verse 25? Maybe we ought to minister that Jesus replaced His Father, but then why would we want to come to Christ so we could be in His Father's presence that made the curse of the law? I guess I just cannot get it.
Starting at the beginning, before the lost believe in Christ, they need to understand the law that God gave to Moses, and see that they are under it, and that they are cursed. The lost soul needs to believe the law is currently bringing a curse on them. (Galatians 3:24) Christians who are to minister to the lost, believe the law has been made void through the death of Christ. It is sinful for a believer to observe the law, for that puts them back under the law, making one righteous (only through Christ) not to observe the law that brings a curse to all unbelievers.
Because of this, the believer must find another way to minister to the lost other than this God given schoolmaster. They can tell the lost that they are under a curse, but can not define the curse because they have never studied the law. So all they can say is that Christ will make the law void for them that brings the curse, and the law will vanish along with the curse if the lost will only believe in Christ.
Now, after salvation, the curse is gone along with the law God gave to Israel via Moses. To observe the law will put us under the law that brings back the curse. This is not to be done, because one will lose their salvation trying to be justified before God by the works of the law.
So the New Covenant is solely for the purpose of totally destroying the Old Covenant curse of the law. So through Christ we can come to the Father, who planned for His instructions to Israel to be destroyed from the beginning, because those instructions bring a predetermined curse, being represented by the history of ancient Israel.
So in summary, the law is an adversary of Christ's fulfillment of the law. It is clear then that God, The Father of Jesus, had determined that His only begotten Son was to destroy His own words He gave to Moses. We now are saved from the curse that God the Father brought in the Old Covenant. God brought the curse in the old days, but now there is no curse. Today disobedience doesn't apply through Christ Jesus as it did in the Old Covenant days before Christ. Now, through Christ Jesus, we have the opportunity to boldly approach the throne of God who was the God of the law and curses, but salvation is Christ's new law of blessings that destroyed His Father's old way. (John 14:6)
All the laws instructing us to conduct ourselves according to God's will, with the exception of the remaining 9 out of the 10 commandments, along with the Levitical priesthood with its temple ordinances, have been destroyed through Christ. This makes God responsible for the curse of the law instead of us. Do I have this right?
Wait a minute. God is still the God of the law and curses for the lost. Why would the lost want to believe in a repressive God such as that, any more than a believer would? If a believer backslides into sin by observing the law, henceforth putting themselves “under the law” why shouldn't a non believer just bypass Galatians 4:24, and go right straight to verse 25? Maybe we ought to minister that Jesus replaced His Father, but then why would we want to come to Christ so we could be in His Father's presence that made the curse of the law? I guess I just cannot get it.
L
Least
Guest
O
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Corinthians 6:14
This verse might refer more to the ox and the ass rather than the linen and the wool.
Thank you. You just pointed out a law that will give us a blessing, for God desires us to have quality cloths that are durable. I see now the moral to the story. You are pretty clever. I have to hand it to ya on thins one. God bless.
That's a very good point Just-me.
Just taking some time to look into these things again is a blessing.
This brings to mind the account of Elijah when he met Elisha. Elisha was out plowing the fields with his oxen. The yoke is the reigns put upon the neck of the Oxen to drive it. The yoke of sin will drive a person, as a servant of sin is driven by it.
The yoke of Christ, (For my yoke is easy and my burden is light,") this is the yoke of every true believer.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Deuteronomy 22:9 Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.
Deuteronomy 22:10 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.
In the parable of the seed sower, Jesus tells us what the seed is.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Before a seed can be planted, a field has to be plowed, rocks removed and the ground made ready.
Deuteronomy speaks about not planting diverse seeds, lest the fruit of they seed which thou has sowed, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled."
We only want the good seed to be planted, and "the seed is the word of God."
We don't want to sow with those who aren't in agreement, as Amos ch. 3 States, "what has darkness to do with light?"
So God's word instructs us not to plow with darkness, "Thou shalt not plow with and Ox and an ass together." And not to plant "divers seeds."
We only want the truth to be planted.
What is the truth according to God's word?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
When we learn of Jesus we learn (and recognize) that HE has been speaking since the beginning.
As the verse says, "take MY yoke upon you and LEARN of ME" We want HIS yoke on us.
Some examples of different types of "yoke."
A yoke of bondage:
Leviticus 26:13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
Sin is a heavy yoke! When we look back over our own lives and see where we have fallen short, the burden of our own wrong doings is a heavy yoke. Sin is a heavy burden.
When Christ is driving us by HIS yoke, it's light, being set free from the burden of sin and overcoming the world which is laden with sin.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
God's word describes how we can be yoked with others as well.
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
There are so many examples of these things throughout the word.
I like the comparison to the garments too. I see the significance of of not mixing materials used for clothing.
Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woolen and linen together.
(I wonder if this also has a principle that ties with what Jesus said about patching a wineskin? That's something to look into.)
Also, if we consider the different times that Paul said, "Put on Christ," or Put on righteousness." Well, we can't walk in darkness and light. We can't put on righteousness and wear it with unrighteousness...that would be a mixed material garment...and Jesus has the best quality garments for us by. There's no replacement, and no other material that can be used for that garment. It's made out of His way, and His truth and His light.
Why do you apply it when it's not what is applied in scripture? Physical circumcision was not instigated via Moses, it was first a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham. If one desires to refute the law using this as an example, then we have to also refute the circumcision of the heart written in both the law and the New Covenant. Deuteronomy 10:16, Deuteronomy 30:6, and Romans 2:29 all say the same thing.
All a person will find in the law, is a circumcision of the heart. Colossians 2:11 confirms this truth when reading the law described in Deuteronomy. Mentioning circumcision to refute the law is a waist of time, for in truth, there is no real physical comparison to make using a carnal mindset. If one wanted to refute the Old Covenant with Abraham, then the comparison would fit, but then one would need to reject this verse too.
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29
That is not what the Bible teaches. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. You are saying you do not have to have the Son (i.e. be out of fellowship) and yet you can still have life (Salvation). What you believe is in contradiction to Scripture.
I like the comparison to the garments too. I see the significance of of not mixing materials used for clothing.
Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woolen and linen together.
(I wonder if this also has a principle that ties with what Jesus said about patching a wineskin? That's something to look into.)
Also, if we consider the different times that Paul said, "Put on Christ," or Put on righteousness." Well, we can't walk in darkness and light. We can't put on righteousness and wear it with unrighteousness...that would be a mixed material garment...and Jesus has the best quality garments for us by. There's no replacement, and no other material that can be used for that garment. It's made out of His way, and His truth and His light.
Your final statement couldn't be more true.
I think the patching has to do with putting a new patch on an old garment, and not using the old wineskin for new wine that needs to ferment. It's the same analogy, but the wineskin isn't what is being patched. Both the garment, and the wineskin house something. The wineskin houses the wine, and the clothes house the person. The wine that is contained represents God's word, and the person is who the garment covers. If the covering is old, and worn out, we cannot make the old new by trying to patch it up over and over.
Let the person be covered by the new even though they are same individual that used to wear the old. The wine of the new is God's word, just as the wine of the old is. It's the containers of both that are no longer useful, not the contents within the container. The old wineskin and old clothes are spent, but what they covered and housed are still valuable. The contents are both God's word, and the ones who He loves.
It's not me who does the "good work" ultimately; And we are not under the Law of Moses (But the Law of Christ). It's Jesus who saves both in Justification and in Sanctification. And we obey Jesus's commands and the teachings of his apostles. If you are not obeying Jesus, then Jesus will say to you... why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say. Read Revelation 3. This was a church that needed to repent. What reason does the Bible give in why they needed to repent?
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If we don't take the responsibility for the "curse of the law," then that makes the giver of the law responsible for the curse. Rather than holding God responsible for the curse, it then is better to hold His law responsible. So the "law of sin and death" is also the "curse of the law" which was given to us by God. Here's where Jesus steps into the picture. Our Saviour destroyed both on the cross. So the plan all along was that God was to speak regulations to Moses to bring curses, sin and death. Then Jesus was to destroy these regulations so curses, sin, and death that His own Father brought forth would be destroyed by His death. How am I involved with this thing if God caused all these curses via His law, and I never had anything to do with them? If I am exempt, then the law has always been a curse created by God alone.
Also, you said the Lord loves his children.
Who are his children or family?
Jesus says his brothers, mother, and sisters are those who do the will of the Father. The Son said and did everything the Father told him to say and do. Those very things we see are memorialized as Scripture today. So just as Jesus obeyed the Father's words, we are to obey the words of Jesus. For Jesus said if you continue in His Word you are his disciples.
You also said LOVE his children.
Jesus said if you love Him, keep His Commandments.
While I agree with what you are saying here, such a statement would be in direct conflict with also saying you can be out fellowship (no doubt because of sin) and still be saved.
I think Jesus was asking Simon to measure his love for Jesus by the realistic measure of his love for his dear and intimate friends whom he loved.
But many are saved who did not want to know at the time, like Paul.
What Jesus teaches is meant as revelation of God's salvation in him (Jn 5:34) from wrath (Ro 5:9).
So what is the most important concern, giving the gospel, or how I look when I do it?
Thanks. . .
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S
Sirk
Guest
I've been down this road with Jason before and asked him to give me just one example of an action of his that is completely altruistic and selfless. He'll just dodge the question again.
S
Sirk
Guest
As a matter of fact, if Jason's pursuit of jesus is anything but entirely selfless then by his definition he is out of fellowship with Jesus.
Many are saved who did not. . .such as Paul, who believed he was most righteous.
The Mosiac law with its commands and regulations brings no curse to anyone. . .it has been abolished (Eph 2:15).
The Mosaic laws brought a curse for disobedience only to God's people to whom only it was given.
God has abolished the Mosaic law on the cross in the flesh of his Son, and now it applies to no one.
God's curse of condemnation is now for only one offense--unbelief in Jesus Christ, the One whom he has sent.
The schoolmaster was for God's people only, it was not for the world, nor given to the world.
The schoolmaster is no longer for God's people, for it's only purpose was to reveal Christ, our true salvation.
Condemnation (the curse) for unbelief in Jesus Christ is for the world.
You have got to quit making it up as you go along from the wood, hay and stubble of vacuous human thinking, which in its trial by fire will be burned up, nothing of it left standing (1Co 3:10-15).
You have got to get down to the gold, silver and precious stones in the knowledge and understanding of God's NT word, and abandon all this wood, hay and stubble of you own human notions.
You just keep weaving all this stuff in a "zeal without knowledge" (Ro 10:2), none of it according to the NT word of God.
God gave the church teachers for a reason (1Co 12:28-29), and you desperately need to find an informed one.
You have a seriously deficient understanding of the NT in some areas, which of necessity affects all areas.
Kinda' sorta'. . .almost nearly. . .not quite hardly. . .
If one "returns" to justification/salvation by law keeping, it shows their faith was counterfeit in the first place (1Jn 2:19),
therefore, they were not saved, and they can't lose what they didn't have.
No. . .the New Covenant with those who believe in Jesus Christ is solely for the purpose of salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9), which is impossible apart from it.
Actually, that would be fulfilled, accomplished, completed, finished.
Yes, the Mosiac laws, on which the Old Covenant was based, were God's temporary addition to the Abrahamic covenant of promise until the Promise (Christ) had come (Gal 3:19).
Only in your confused human notions. . .certainly not in the word of God.
Do you know the difference between destroy and fulfill (accomplish, complete, finish)?
It's no wonder you do not understand the word of God, particularly the NT.
Yes, the Mosaic law with its commands and regulations were abolished on the cross in the flesh of Christ
because they were fulfilled, accomplished, completed and finished on the cross in the flesh of Christ.
This is the word of God in Eph 2:15.
Your misunderstanding is rooted in unbelief.
This makes you responsible for not believing the NT word of God. . .that's what you got right.
No. . . he is not. . .that is the inconsistent building you have constructed with the wood, hay and stubble of your empty human notions (1Co 3:10-15).
They don't. . .that is a false premise and, therefore, your conclusion below is false.
You got that right!
And you won't get it until you come into the truth of the whole NT word of God.
The foundation of your building of wood, hay and stubble is unbelief.
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Or maybe we are not to mix the right things in the wrong way. . .in justificationOh, I get it, you aren't saying that non moral is immoral, your just saying there is no moral to the regulation.
Deuteronomy 22:9-11
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
These verses discuss the concept of mixing materials and fibers, animals for labor, and seeds that are not compatible and grow well together, and are of completely different characteristics.
God established this law to ensure that low quality fabrics are not produced.
All clothing is made from two different kinds of naturally occurring fibers:
(1) Cellulose fiber, which is made from plants. This is typically linen and cotton;
(2) animal protein fiber. Fabrics such as wool and silk fall into this category.
When you mix fibers of varying characteristics, you create a fabric that is of low quality and will wear out quickly.
God simply does not want manufacturers to create low-quality products and take advantage of—and deceive—consumers. Such actions would break the spirit of the Eighth Commandment.
Weaving two different materials together that are not compatible can also be compared with the church with its members, or with a husband wife relationship in comparison with Christ and the church being of the same mind.
"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
1 Corinthians 1:10
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Corinthians 6:14
This verse might refer more to the ox and the ass rather than the linen and the wool.
Thank you. You just pointed out a law that will give us a blessing, for
God desires us to have quality cloths that are durable. I see now the moral to the story. You are pretty clever. I have to hand it to ya on thins one. God bless.
we are not to mix law with grace (Gal 2:16) nor works with faith (Eph 2:8-9),
and in the new birth, we are not to mix man's decision with God's election (Jn 1:13).
Literally -
Leviticus 12:3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. (ESV)
Leviticus 12:3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. (NIV)
Leviticus 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. (KJV) Is this not in the Law?
Circumcision of the heart: Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart - this is meant figuratively since there is no "foreskin" of the heart - and be no more stiffnecked. Cut away from your inner being the act of being obstinate - Cut away your stubbornness.
Deut. 30:6 When was God going to circumcise their hearts . . . When they returned unto the LORD and obeyed his voice (v2) and He gathered them from all the nations where they were scattered (v3). . . When will this occur? Isn't this at Christ's second coming and the Millennial Kingdom?
Colossians 2:10-14 And you are complete in him which is the head of all principality and power: In whom [Jesus Christ] also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, . . . .(figurative not a literal 'cutting')
Here is the "circumcision" - in putting off the body of sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (BY being) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also we are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses . . . Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us (what are "the handwriting of ordinances"?) and took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.
. . . the whole argument turns on the fact that the circumcision and the baptism spoken of are both made without hands, and both are fulfilled in Christ. The whole context of these two passages must be studied in order to see the one point and the great truth which is revealed: viz., that in His death we are circumcised and cut off, crucified with Him (Rom. 6:6): in His burial (or baptism-unto-death) we are baptized (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12): in His resurrection we now have our true standing before God. We have ALL in Christ. Hence, our completeness and perfection in Him is such that nothing can be added to it. All who are baptized by Him with the Holy Spirit are identified with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection.
E.W. Bullinger - Figures of Speech
There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16). Sins that lead unto death are those sins Paul lists several times in the New Testament whereby they will cause a person into not inheriting the Kingdom of God or to face the Second Death (Which is the Lake of Fire, as John calls it). A Christian is supposed to conform to the image of Christ. Hebrews 10:38 says the just shall live by faith and if any man draws back my soul will have no pleasure in him. For if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). One is either a slave to Christ and His righteousness or they are a slave to loving this world and their own sin.