When does the rapture occur?

[popeye]

It was an interdenominational seminary and these 'strange' theological positions are quite standard in the UK. We do not go by Darby. We go by the New Testament. In fact there are large numbers of amillennialists in the US who hold similar views. I suspect that you are cloistered in your own little world.

I grew up on Scofield as a young man, but turned from pretrib when I discovered all the contradictions and twisting of Greek that it required, together with its lack of regard for context. You Americans waste so much time arguing abut inessentials that you never contemplate the whole. Look at MATTHEW 24 in parallel with Mark 13 and Luke 21 and if you are open to truth you will soon see that your exegesis is wrong as far as 'great tribulation' (no article) is concerned.

Then read Revelation asking yourself what message for the church of John's day did it have? .



'The temple of theos' covers all pagan temples seen as one. It is a compound singular. He will worship in 'the temple of God' wherever situated proclaiming himself to be theos. It is not referring to the Jerusalem Temple which ceased long ago and no longer has any place in God's eyes. Why do you think its rebuilding is never mentioned in the New Testament? God cursed it in 70 AD. He had already replaced it with Jesus Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Like the millennium, ideas of a rebuilt temple were unknown to Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James. The temple was history.

Caligula displayed himself in one temple of theos after another.



Singular because representative of all temples of theos.



How can the activity of unbelieving Jews be a prophecy? You are living in a dream world. There is no suggestion in the whole of the New Testament that a third temple will be built, and such a temple would be an abhorrence to God. God's people now worship in 'the true Tabernacle not made with hands' (Heb 8.5; 9.11). Indeed the writer tells us that if there is a temple on earth there is no entry into the heavenly Tabernacle (Heb 9.8). I prefer to use the heavenly Tabernacle as in Heb 10.19 ff



well people believe all kinds of odd things once they vary from Scripture.



they are not 'under the altar' in Rev 20 they are living and reigning with Christ. so maybe its YOU who cannot read the Queen's English? Mass beheadings occurred in 1st century AD (Paul was one) so what's your problem?. That was what indicated that people in those days were going through great tribulation in 1st century AD. And when they arrived in Heaven their SOULS did not need heads. By the way SOULS don't have physical heads lol. Or do you think Paul is now in Heaven without his head?





Of course it doesn't worry me. The Holy Spirit delivered me from Darbyism many years ago.

I suggest you come to England and ask our young people what they think about the great tribulation. Unless they have been infected by American evangelists most of them won't know what you are talking about. Darbyism is not in vogue here. We proclaim the Scriptures which does not mention the great tribulation. We proclaim the second coming of Christ, but on the whole we leave Revelation (and much of Daniel) to the fanatics

I suggest you come to England and ask our young people what they think about the great tribulation. Unless they have been infected by American evangelists most of them won't know what you are talking about. Darbyism is not in vogue here. We proclaim the Scriptures which does not mention the great tribulation. We proclaim the second coming of Christ, but on the whole we leave Revelation (and much of Daniel) to the fanatics

You must be out of gas,the blanket indictments are telling..........

 

[SilverFanng]

perhaps you should note that the colours of all the horses represent evils. If the white horse did not it would be an exception. Is that not confusing?

Actually the horsemen were sent out on Christ's command which means they are more like judgements than anything else. The false church (or synagogue of satan), wars and rumors of wars, famine, pestilence and death.

Also, the white on the first horseman represents deceit.

 

[popeye]

but for 1800 years it had a clear message for people it is only the 19th century onwards that has resulted in such a multitude of interpretations that it can be made to mean anything to anybody. it is a consequence of this absurd idea that most of God's prophesying was about the last few years of history.

Invoking the "infalabilitty" of the early church?

Under this template you equally absorb the heraseys and errors of any heretic before the 1800's.

Good to know where you are doctrinally.

 

[popeye]

Let others judge. I think your math is bad lol. But I won't disagree that what you believe about the resurrection is 180 degrees out.




And you call that accepting what the Bible says? No wonder you are mixed up. WHERE does the Bible say that? The seventieth seven begins with the death (and resurrection) of Christ and God's renewing of the covenant with His people, that is, ALL who believe in the Messiah. (Dan 9.25-27)



your views get weirder and weirder. The seventieth seven commences with God renewing His covenant with His people (covenant in Daniel always means God's covenant) which is followed by the destruction of the Temple so that sacrifices cease. I fail to see how that connect with beheaded saints. Your view is NOT Scriptural. It is DARBYISM TO THE CORE.




yes Christ rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven seating Himself on the throne of David (Acts 2.30, 36). Then all who believed in Him were spiritually raised and seated with Him in heavenly places (Eph 2.5-6). This included the SOULS of those who had been taken up to Heaven. IT IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION as all who are in Christ are seen as having been raised with Him spiritually. Then after an indeterminate period of time ('a thousand years') the general physical resurrection will take place of both righteous and unrighteous as described by Jesus (John 5.28-29).

At least my view is backed by Scripture as a whole.





nit picking. but then you have nothing else to argue with.

your views get weirder and weirder. The seventieth seven commences with God renewing His covenant with His people (covenant in Daniel always means God's covenant) which is followed by the destruction of the Temple so that sacrifices cease. I fail to see how that connect with beheaded saints. Your view is NOT Scriptural. It is DARBYISM TO THE CORE.

John Nelson Darby was born in Westminster, London, and christened at St. Margaret's on 3 March 1801. He came from an Anglo-Irish landowning family seated at Leap Castle, King's County, Ireland. He was the nephew of Admiral Henry D'Esterre Darby and his middle name was given in recognition of his godfather and family friend, Lord Nelson.Darby was educated at Westminster School and Trinity College, Dublin where he graduated Classical Gold Medallist in 1819


HMMMMM,he was english. Go figure

 

[valiant]

John Nelson Darby was born in Westminster, London, and christened at St. Margaret's on 3 March 1801. He came from an Anglo-Irish landowning family seated at Leap Castle, King's County, Ireland. He was the nephew of Admiral Henry D'Esterre Darby and his middle name was given in recognition of his godfather and family friend, Lord Nelson.Darby was educated at Westminster School and Trinity College, Dublin where he graduated Classical Gold Medallist in 1819


HMMMMM,he was english. Go figure

true and his ideas were swallowed wholesale by a large part of the us church

he was also a member of the Plymouth Brethren

 

[popeye]

true and his ideas were swallowed wholesale by a large part of the us church

Sorrry to poke a hole in your rant. You were on such a roll against us ignorant americans.

 

[valiant]

Invoking the "infalabilitty" of the early church?

Under this template you equally absorb the heraseys and errors of any heretic before the 1800's.

Good to know where you are doctrinally.

I would have thought you had more intelligence than you are revealing here

 

[valiant]

Sorrry to poke a hole in your rant. You were on such a roll against us ignorant americans.

Its all I expect on here decent discussion appears to be sadly lacking

 

[valiant]

Actually the horsemen were sent out on Christ's command which means they are more like judgements than anything else. The false church (or synagogue of satan), wars and rumors of wars, famine, pestilence and death.

Also, the white on the first horseman represents deceit.

precisely they are the judgments prophesied by Jesus Christ in Matt 24 - false Messiahs, wars and rumours of wars, famines, pestilences , earthquakes - the beginnings of sorrows and thus commencing in 1st century AD

 

[popeye]

I would have thought you had more intelligence than you are revealing here

Sorry,it is you that invoked it.

Not a very bright move huh?

Of course maybe you are unaware of the myriad of early church herasys?

Your 1800's mess is a joke sir

 

[popeye]

Its all I expect on here decent discussion appears to be sadly lacking

Maybe you are ready to discus w/o the arrogant condescention and hatred of America?
How refreshing.

 

[valiant]

Sorry,it is you that invoked it.

Not a very bright move huh?

Of course maybe you are unaware of the myriad of early church herasys?

Your 1800's mess is a joke sir

Revelation was never intended to be interpreted literally. It is a book of pictures and ideas. when people have been persecuted they have found comfort in it. it is darby and his followers who have built up a whole end time scenario out of it which it was never intended to convey. on another forum I have seen some of the fantastic schemes built up by u.s. Christians . All inspired of course, even though they differ so completely


Revelation is hardly ever preached on over here except by American tv evangelists

we prefer the soundness of the Gospels, Acts and epistles.

 

[RickyZ]

Revelation was never intended to be interpreted literally. It is a book of pictures and ideas. when people have been persecuted they have found comfort in it. it is darby and his followers who have built up a whole end time scenario out of it which it was never intended to convey. on another forum I have seen some of the fantastic schemes built up by u.s. Christians . All inspired of course, even though they differ so completely


Revelation is hardly ever preached on over here except by American tv evangelists

we prefer the soundness of the Gospels, Acts and epistles.

Wow. I'm curious, just how many pages of God's word do you willfully ignore and yet still claim to be an expert on?

 

[RickyZ]

Ya know, I've never read an automotive repair manual. We don't study such things here. But I'm an expert mechanic... how 'bout letting me wrench on your car?

 

[VCO]

Let others judge. I think your math is bad lol. But I won't disagree that what you believe about the resurrection is 180 degrees out.

And you call that accepting what the Bible says? No wonder you are mixed up. WHERE does the Bible say that? The seventieth seven begins with the death (and resurrection) of Christ and God's renewing of the covenant with His people, that is, ALL who believe in the Messiah. (Dan 9.25-27)

your views get weirder and weirder. The seventieth seven commences with God renewing His covenant with His people (covenant in Daniel always means God's covenant) which is followed by the destruction of the Temple so that sacrifices cease. I fail to see how that connect with beheaded saints. Your view is NOT Scriptural. It is DARBYISM TO THE CORE.

yes Christ rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven seating Himself on the throne of David (Acts 2.30, 36). Then all who believed in Him were spiritually raised and seated with Him in heavenly places (Eph 2.5-6). This included the SOULS of those who had been taken up to Heaven. IT IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION as all who are in Christ are seen as having been raised with Him spiritually. Then after an indeterminate period of time ('a thousand years') the general physical resurrection will take place of both righteous and unrighteous as described by Jesus (John 5.28-29).

At least my view is backed by Scripture as a whole.

nit picking. but then you have nothing else to argue with.

Are you telling me that YOU (in the red above) DO NOT BELIEVE in being born into spiritual eternal life here and now the moment we genuinely receive Him as LORD meaning MASTER? IF SO, no wonder you cannot understand the deep spiritual Truths that I have been trying to share with you. You are not yet BORN AGAIN, if that is the case. I am already born again ever since the last week of 1977, and from that moment on my human spirit has already be born or raised spiritually into eternal life.

John 3:36 (NIV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Galatians 5:16-18 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Galatians 6:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] However, we do speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] On the contrary, we speak God’s hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] None of the rulers of this age knew ⌊this⌋ wisdom, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But as it is written: What eye did not see and ear did not hear, and what never entered the human mind— God prepared this for those who love Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Now God has revealed ⌊these things⌋ to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who ⌊comes⌋ from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For who has known the Lord’s mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Your views contradict what the Scriptures say in SEVERAL PLACES.


John 5:28-29 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
[SUP]29 [/SUP] and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

JOHN 5:28-29.

Jesus said His hearers should not be amazed at His claim that right now those who believe pass from death into life (v. 24), because in the future there will be a universal physical resurrection at His command. This universal resurrection is clearly taught in Daniel 12:1-2. Other passages show that the resurrection to life, "the first resurrection," will occur in stages (the church at the Rapture, and Tribulation saints at the Lord's second coming at the end of the Tribulation), and that the resurrection of those who will be condemned will occur at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:11-15). John 5:28-29 is one of the few passages in this Gospel which expressly teaches eschatology.


The words those who have done good and those who have done evil ([FONT=&quot]ta phaula[/FONT], "worthless things"; cf. 3:20) by themselves might imply a salvation by good deeds or damnation because of evil deeds, but a consideration of John's theology as a whole forbids this (cf. 3:17-21; 6:28-29). Those who are truly born again do live a different kind of life. They obey Him (14:15), they abide in Him (15:5-7), and they walk in the light (8:12; 1 John 1:7). They are saved by the Lamb of God who, as their substitutionary Sacrifice, takes away the penalty of their sin. Salvation is by faith in Christ. Damnation is because of rejection of God's Son (John 3:36).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

[John 5:28-29].
There are two resurrections mentioned here. The Book of Revelation is even more specific and describes the completion of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6) and the second resurrection (Rev. 20:11-15). The first resurrection is the resurrection of all the saved -- the first phase of which is the next thing on the agenda of God. We call it the rapture of the church. "Rapture" is a good translation of the Greek harpazo. Paul used it in 1Thessalonians 4:17 where he says we shall be "caught up," which means "to be raptured." The Rapture takes place at some time in the future. It is not dated and there are no signs given for it. It could happen at any moment. He is going to call His own out of this world, both the living and the dead. That is part of the first resurrection. Then, during the Tribulation period a great many believers will become martyrs. They will be raised at the end of the Great Tribulation period together with the Old Testament saints. That also is part of the first resurrection. They will be raised to live forever here upon this earth. That is the first resurrection. It is the resurrection of life, as our Lord called it.


Then the resurrection of judgment is the Great White Throne judgment when all the unsaved of all the ages will be raised. They wanted to be judged by their works, and they will be! They will stand before God who is just and righteous; they will have an opportunity to stand before a Holy God and to plead their case. But God has already warned them; there is no one saved in that judgment. It is only the lost who are brought there, and they will be judged according to their works, because there are degrees in punishment (see Luke 12:47-48).

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

The unbelieving Jews were astonished and outraged at Jesus' bold claim to be the giver of spiritual life and the ultimate judge of all men. But the Lord was about to make another shocking claim. Rebuking them for their unbelief—that they would marvel at His teachings—Jesus continued by revealing another truth that astounded them: that He would one day raise the dead from their graves. As He did with the spiritual resurrection (v. 25), Jesus said that the hour of bodily resurrection is coming. But unlike the spiritual resurrection, He did not say that there is a present aspect of that reality. The resurrection of all who are in the tombs is still future. At that time, the souls of the righteous dead, now in heaven with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8), and of the wicked dead, now in torment in Hades (Luke 16:22-23), will be given resurrected bodies fit for eternity.Some argue from this text that the resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous takes place at the same time. But while Jesus spoke here of the resurrection in general, He did not describe one general resurrection. On the contrary, in verse 29 He clearly distinguished between the resurrection of life and the resurrection of judgment. He made that same distinction in Luke 14:14, where He spoke of the resurrection of the righteous, implying that it is a distinct event. Revelation 20:4-6 also mentions two resurrections: the first consists of the righteous dead before the Millennium, and the second of the unrighteous dead for the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the Millennium. (For a detailed exposition of Revelation 20:4-6, see Revelation 12-22, The MacArthur New Testament Commentary [Chicago: Moody, 2000], 236ff.; Robert L. Thomas, Revelation 8-22: An Exegetical Commentary [Chicago: Moody, 1995], 412ff.)
The Bible teaches that the dead are raised in a specific sequence, not all at once:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. (1 Cor. 15:22-24)
​

The adjective [FONT=&quot]tagma[/FONT] ("order" or "turn") stresses that the dead are raised at different times: "Christ the first fruits," "those who are Christ's at His coming," and the rest at "the end"—the consummation of all things when the wicked (the only ones not already mentioned) will be resurrected. The adjectives [FONT=&quot]epeita[/FONT] ("after that") and [FONT=&quot]eita[/FONT] ("then") almost always describe chronological (as opposed to logical) sequences of events.
Those who belong to Christ will be raised in connection with His coming. The believers of the church age (from Pentecost to the Rapture) will be raised at the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:16), and the Old Testament saints, along with those saved during the Tribulation, at the end of the Tribulation (Rev. 20:4; cf. Dan. 12:2). Although Scripture does not explicitly mention them, believers who die during the Millennium will presumably receive their resurrection bodies immediately.
[h=3]The Power[/h]

"will hear His voice, and will come forth;" (5:28b-29a)​

Jesus did not delineate the order of the resurrection in this passage because He was not concerned here with chronology, but with revealing His divine power. This time the phrase hear His voice does not describe the effectual hearing of faith as in verse 25, but refers to the sovereign command of Christ. At His charge, the bodies of everyone who ever lived will come back to life. It is no wonder, then, that the apostle Paul longed to "know Him and the power of His resurrection" (Phil. 3:10).
[h=3]The Purpose[/h]

"those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." (5:29b)​

The final resurrection will usher believers into the glories and joys of eternal life, and bring unbelievers to the endless suffering of eternal judgment. By characterizing believers as those who did the good deeds and unbelievers as those who committed the evil deeds Jesus was not teaching that salvation is by works. Throughout His ministry, Jesus clearly taught that salvation "is the work of God, that [people] believe in Him whom He has sent" (6:29; cf. Isa. 64:6; Rom. 4:2-4; 9:11; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5). Good works are simply the evidence of salvation; Jesus called them "fruit" in Luke 6:43-45. Those who believe in the Son will as a result do good deeds (3:21; Eph. 2:10; James 2:14-20), while those who reject the Son will be characterized by evil deeds (3:18-19).
While works do not save, they do provide the basis for divine judgment. Scripture teaches that God judges people based on their deeds (Ps. 62:12; Isa. 3:10-11; Jer. 17:10; 32:19; Matt. 16:27; Gal. 6:7-9; Rev. 20:12; 22:12), because those deeds manifest the condition of the heart. Thus Jesus said, "The mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart" (Matt. 12:34). Later in Matthew's gospel He taught that "the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders" (15:18-19). In Luke 6:45 Jesus told His hearers, "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil." The apostle Paul also taught that people's actions reflect their inner nature. To the Romans he wrote,

[God] will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Rom. 2:6-10)
​

A few chapters later, Paul made it clear that those who attain to the resurrection of the righteous do not do so by their own merits, but by means of their union with Jesus Christ through faith:

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection. (Rom. 6:3-5)
​

Thus good deeds reveal the presence or absence of salvation, but do not produce it. They are its effect, not its cause.
MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – John 1-11.

 

[Reborn]

Well,thank God for context.
..........and he that sat on him had a bow. Jesus has no bow
.............and a crown was given unto him. Nobody needs to Give Jeesus a crown.He is crowned.
..........and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Jesus does 1 "conquering" locally at megeddo.

If the 1st horse is jesus,then jesus brings chaos to the earth,for he is followed by the red horse
".....there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."
So,the sword Jesus normally would have, now belongs to this freak on a red horse,aand I suppose Jesus approves of no peace and pple arbitrarily killing each other?????

3rd seal has "black" (must be evil right?).So,we can conclude evil has taken over the worlds economy while Jesus sits helpless?????

It gets even better with the 4th seal,by now Jesus is totally powerless
"..........8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

UH,I know this is taboo,but isn't it a strange coincidence that those seals line up w/pretrib doctrine?
Could us stupid americans have been right all along.????

Thank God, He is consistent.

You're trying to use rational, yes, human logic to "crack" spiritual things.
Simplicity in Christ. Simplicity in His Revelation.

I gave you guys a crystal clear meaning behind the color WHITE....as described throughout Revelation....IT DOES NOT CHANGE THAT ONE TIME.
You're changing it to fit. Flawed human reasoning, God is clear.
Nor is there a "like" before THE description of the rider, as used throughout Revelation. (Key word)

Explain away colors all you want, but show me ONE other example of the color white in Revelation used to describe something evil.
So I ask again....why would He change it to rep evil, not use "like" (key word) , then change the color back to something pure?

No wonder people get scared of Revelation....when they see man complicate it like this.

 

[VCO]

. . .
And you call that accepting what the Bible says? No wonder you are mixed up. WHERE does the Bible say that? The seventieth seven begins with the death (and resurrection) of Christ and God's renewing of the covenant with His people, that is, ALL who believe in the Messiah. (Dan 9.25-27)

your views get weirder and weirder. The seventieth seven commences with God renewing His covenant with His people (covenant in Daniel always means God's covenant) which is followed by the destruction of the Temple so that sacrifices cease. I fail to see how that connect with beheaded saints. Your view is NOT Scriptural. It is DARBYISM TO THE CORE.
. . .

It is talking about the THIRD TEMPLE that may soon be built:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCsEMjpZZoo

Daniel 9:27 Then.

This is surely the end of the age, the Second Advent judgment, because the bringing in of righteousness did not occur seven years after the death of the Messiah, nor did the destruction of Jerusalem fit the seven-year period (occurring thirty-seven years later). This is the future seven-year period which ends with sin’s final judgment and Christ’s reign of righteousness; i.e., the return of Christ and the establishment of His rule. These seven years constitute the seventieth week of Daniel. he shall confirm. He is the last-mentioned prince (v. 26), leader of the Roman sphere (cf. chs. 2; 7), the Antichrist who comes in the latter days. The time is in the future Tribulation period of “one week,” i.e., the final seven years of verse 24. He confirms (lit., causes to prevail) a seven-year covenant, his own pact with Israel, that will actually turn out to be for a shorter time. The leader in this covenant is the “little horn” of 7:7, 8, 20, 21, 24-26, and the evil leader found in NT prophecy (Mark 13:14; 2 Thess. 2:3-10; Rev. 13:1-10). That he is in the future, even after Christ’s First Advent, is shown by: (1) Matthew 24:15; (2) the time references that match (7:25; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5); and (3) the end extending to the Second Advent, matching the duration elsewhere mentioned in Daniel (2:35, 45; 7:15ff.; 12:1-3) and Revelation 11:2; 12:14; 13:5. middle of the week. This is the halfway point of the seventieth week of years, i.e., seven years leading to Christ’s Second Coming. The Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel (v. 27a), which has resumed its ancient sacrificial system. Three and one-half years of Tribulation remain, agreeing with the time in other Scriptures (7:25; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5, called “Great Tribulation,” cf. Matt. 24:21) as a period when God’s wrath intensifies. abominations... one who makes desolate. The Antichrist will cause abomination against Jewish religion. This violation will desolate or ruin what Jews regard as sacred, namely their holy temple and the honoring of God’s presence there (cf. 1 Kin. 9:3; 2 Thess. 2:4). Jesus refers directly to this text in His Olivet discourse (Matt. 24:15). See note on 11:31. the consummation. God permits this tribulation during the Antichrist’s persecutions and then ultimately triumphs by judging the sin and sinners in Israel (12:7) and in the world (cf. Jer. 25:31). This includes the Antichrist (11:45; Rev. 19:20), and all who deserve judgment (9:24; Matt. 13:41-43).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

The starting point for this period of 490 years is essential to the correct understanding of the prophecy. Since this period is projected into the Times of the Gentiles, it must fit into secular history and originate from some date connected with the Times of the Gentiles. Of course there have been many suggestions for a starting point: the decree of Cyrus (see Ezra 1:1-4); the decree of Darius (see Ezra 6:1-12); the decree of Artaxerxes -- at the seventh year of his reign (Ezra 7:11-26); but I feel that the decree of Artaxerxes in the twentieth year of his reign (Neh. 2:1-8) meets the requirements of verse 25. The commandment to rebuild the city of Jerusalem was issued in the month Nisan 445 B.C. That, then, will be our starting point.
The first seven weeks of forty-nine years bring us to 397 B.C. and to Malachi and the end of the Old Testament. These were "troublous times," as witnessed by both Nehemiah and Malachi.
Sixty-two weeks, or 434 years, bring us to the Messiah. Sir Robert Anderson in his book, The Coming Prince, has worked out the time schedule. From the first of the month Nisan to the tenth of Nisan (April 6) A.D. 32, is 173,880 days. Dividing them according to the Jewish year of 360 days, he arrives at 483 years (69 sevens). On this day Jesus rode into Jerusalem, offering Himself for the first time, publicly and officially, as the Messiah.
After the 69 weeks, or 483 years, there is a time break. Between the sixty-ninth and Seventieth Week two events of utmost importance are to take place:
1. Messiah will be cut off. This was the crucifixion of Christ, the great mystery and truth of the gospel: "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day" (Matt. 16:21). "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:15).
2. Destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in A.D. 70, when Titus the Roman was the instrument.
The final "week" (the seventieth), a period of seven years, is projected into the future and does not follow chronologically the other sixty-nine. The time gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks is the age of grace -- unknown to the prophets (Eph. 3:1-12; 1Pet. 1:10-12). The Seventieth Week is eschatological; it is the final period and is yet unfulfilled.
"The prince" is a Roman; he is the "little horn" of Daniel 7; he is "the beast" of Revelation 13. After the church is removed from the earth, he will make a covenant with Israel. Israel will accept him as her Messiah, but in the midst of the "week" he will break his covenant by placing an image in the temple (Rev. 13). This is the abomination of desolation. What Israel thought to be the Millennium will turn out to be the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-26). Only the coming of Christ can end this frightful period (Matt. 24:27-31).
My friend, you and I are living in the age of grace, and the Seventieth Week of Daniel, the Great Tribulation, as the Lord Jesus called it, is yet to take place.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

9:27 We now come to the seventieth week. As mentioned previously, there is a time gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. This parenthetical period is the Church Age, which extends from Pentecost to the Rapture. It is never mentioned specifically in the OT; it was a secret hidden in God from the foundation of the world but revealed by the apostles and prophets of the NT period. However, the principle of a gap is nicely illustrated by our Lord in the synagogue at Nazareth (Luke 4:18, 19). Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1, 2a but cut it short at "the acceptable year of the Lord" (His First Advent), and left off the judgment of His Second Advent: "and the day of vengeance of our God" (Isa. 61:2b). In between was to occur the whole Church Age.Then he (the Roman prince) shall confirm a covenant with many (the unbelieving majority of the nation of Israel) for one week (the seven-year Tribulation Period). It may be a friendship treaty, a non-aggression treaty, or a guarantee of military assistance against any nation attacking Israel.
But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. The Roman prince will turn hostile toward Israel, forbidding further sacrifices and offerings to Jehovah.
And on the wing of abominations. We learn from Matthew 24:15 that he will set up an abominable idolatrous image in the temple and presumably he will command that it be worshiped. Some think that wing here refers to a wing of the temple.
Shall be one who makes desolate. He will persecute and destroy those who refuse to worship the image.
Even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. Terrible persecution of the Jews will continue for the last half of the seventieth week, a period known as the Great Tribulation. Then the Roman prince, "the one who makes desolate," will himself be destroyed, as decreed by God, by being cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20).

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

 

[valiant]

Are you telling me that YOU (in the red above) DO NOT BELIEVE in being born into spiritual eternal life here and now the moment we genuinely receive Him as LORD meaning MASTER? IF SO, no wonder you cannot understand the deep spiritual Truths that I have been trying to share with you. You are not yet BORN AGAIN, if that is the case.

you have a weird way of interpreting other peoples words which may simply indicate that you have a fixed rigid mind unable to understand fluid spiritual concepts. Tell me how can you come alive with Christ and not be born from Above? How can you be raised with Him and seated at His right hand without being born from above? This is a spiritual transformation of the most emphatic kind. I now see why in America there are so many denominations. you have inflexible minds.

I am already born again ever since the last week of 1977, and from that moment on my human spirit has already be born or raised spiritually into eternal life.

I find it difficult to take you seriously. That is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. I have already been born from above, been made alive in Christ and have been raised with Him in heavenly places in Christ. I have thereby taken part in the first resurrection (HIS resurrection). The saints in glory are in THE SAME POSITION. The only difference is that their bodies are in the grave but their SOULS are living and reigning with Christ. WE ALL SHARE HIS HEAVENLY REIGN. Can you grasp that or shall I repeat it again. When I was born from above you were not even a twinkle in your mother's eye

John 3:36 (NIV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

These things have I said to you that you may KNOW that you have eternal life' (1 John 5.13). You are arguing at cross purposes.

Your views contradict what the Scriptures say in SEVERAL PLACES.

you mean your totally distorted idea of my views. Are you deliberately misunderstanding or simply totally inflexible in your thinking?

John 5:28-29 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
[SUP]29 [/SUP] and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

yes this is describing the second resurrection, the physical resurrection of the dead.

compare John 5.25 with 28. One speaks of NOW IS (the new birth and first resurrection with Christ). The second speaks of the future resurrection of the body. Are you able to grasp the difference?

I am really not interested in extracts for the commentaries of popular preachers. Cite a genuinely scholarly commentary and I may read it.

 

[skylove7]

I trust in the Holy Spirit to guide me! That's all I know!

 

[Elin]

There will certainly be only one second coming!
the rapture ( during which those alive in Crrist will be caught up [raptured] to meey Jesus in the air after the dead in Christ (not those dead in their sins) are taken up before them;
must be a separate event from the second coming: since at the rapture Jesus does NOT set foot on the earth; but at the second coming He does.

1 Th 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

However, Heb 9:27-28 teaches that Christ appears only twice, once to atone and once to judge
(and not in between), presented here,
so Christ leaves God's throne only one more time--to come to judge.

So could not the rapture be a parousia type event (1Th 4:15, 5:23, etc.) where the citizens of a town went out of the city to meet an incoming dignitary and accompanied him back into the city?

Could not the saints go out (rise in the air) to meet the descending Christ at the second coming and accompany him back to earth in his continued descent, which rapture and second coming would be one event at the end of time?