When does the rapture occur?

SilverFanng · May 16, 2015

also I am NOT talking about Christ's return. I am only speaking about something God revealed to me.

VCO · May 16, 2015

Elin said:

You do know that there are prophecies that have not happened yet, that seem to point to a full scale Nuclear War in the mid-east, PRIOR to HIS Second Coming? That War will leave Iraq, western Iran, several major Cities in Syria, portions of Israel, and Southern Jordan, totally destroyed and uninhabited; and most of Iraq, Southern Jordan, and those Cities in Syria will remain uninhabited from generation to generation, and no one will even camp their overnight. WHY? Most likely because of the radio active remains in the soil.

Were you a follower of Harold Camping?

VCO · May 16, 2015

Elin said:

Actually, it is "called-out assembly."

In the OT, Israel was a congregation (edah; qahal--assembly), translated into the Greek as sunagoge.
The NT church is ekklesia--called-out assembly.

No, it does not. . .in Heb 12:23 the spirits of the OT saints are in the church.

Heb states that in the church are the spirits of the OT righteous men made perfect, along with thousands upon thousands of angels, and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant (Heb 12:18-24).

Yes, Abraham's faith was in the Promise (Christ), just as our faith is in Christ (the Promise).

It is one people of God (the olive tree) in a revelatory progressive plan of salvation,
where to the OT assembly the great and coming salvation was pictured in ceremonies, types, copies, shadows and patterns,
and to the NT called-out assembly these are made a reality, and no longer just ceremonies, types, copies, shadows and patterns.

God has only one people, the olive tree, on which are the branches of believing Israel and the believing Gentiles.

Messiah, the Christ is the Vine, and we are the branches. Some branches are natural branches (Jews who genuinely believe in the Messiah as LORD); and there are many branches that are grafted in (Gentiles who believe in the Messiah as Lord).

VCO · May 16, 2015

just-me said:

The rapture will occur in September of 2022, unsure of the day but it will be at the last trumpet on the 10th of Tishri. Intelligent guess, but it is after the tribulation in Matthew 24:29, because Jesus is answering His disciples when the end of the world would be, and what would be the sign of His coming in verse 3 of the same chapter. Who knows?

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matthew 24:36

There isn't any scripture clearly defining how many trumpets there would be before His coming. I know there are 7 mentioned in Revelation.

This year will be the beginning of the 7 years in September, but the great tribulation won't start for another 3 1/2 years.

Another Harold Camping wanna be, I presume.

just-me · May 17, 2015

VCO said:

Got a reaction anyway. Everybody knows that nobody knows. LOL Watch the signs and be prepared is not a laughing matter. Facetiousness always gets attention on a subject like this.

popeye · May 17, 2015

SilverFanng said:

The stench of sin is great in america,however,the remnant believers are in the way of judgement,(see abraham's dialog concerning the sodomite's city).
This is WHY the church and HS must be removed. It goes to God's testimony/purposes.

If you connect the dots,we have The ac revealed,the church and HS removed,the times of the gentiles completed with the slaughter of the left behind ones,and the time of Jacob's/Israel's /(Jewish) trouble beginning.

Now,,if it starts this year,then THAT is what God means,(by removing his hand this year)not that the sin dimension is the only factor

just-me · May 17, 2015

popeye said:

Testing and sifting is what separates the wheat from the tares. Sorting with the rod is what separates the sheep from the goats. Enduring tribulation confirms faith. Romans 5:1-5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: [SUP]
2 [/SUP]By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Hang in there because it's coming.

SolidGround · May 17, 2015

We are not appointed to Wrath, but the Tribulation is not Wrath. We are Tribulation Saints along with John, as he calls himself one in the beginning of Revelation.

Whether or not the Church is to remain through the last 7 years, the truth remains that we are to be prepared for His Coming Today, and every day called Today. Whether by death or being caught up, tomorrow is not guaranteed.

I do not trust man's interpretation of prophecy. I trust the Promises.
No matter which side is right about the last 7 years and the Millenium,
our destiny in Christ does not rest upon educated guesses and systematic studies of eschatology, but upon the grace of God, through faith in Christ. No Believer, regardless of opinion on timelines, will be Left Behind when He Comes. He knows His Sheep.

Do not make idle threats to justify theories. Stick to the Gospel.
It is better to forget all else except the Gospel, than to pursue high thoughts of the unknown, and cause division among brethren. Divisions are against the Gospel, but mere differing opinions are not.

We agree and are unified in Christ... not about prophetic timelines. Such things are to be considered foolishness before the weight of the Gospel.

This is a good discussion to have, but do so with unity of Spirit and love. Let it be edifying. Disagreement does not need to become division and disunity.

Elin · May 17, 2015

SilverFanng said:

So the question becomes:

If it doesn't occur by the end of the year,

who do you think "revealed" this to you?

and what are you going to do about it?

just-me · May 17, 2015

SolidGround said:

Actually, I believe the second coming of Christ will be in correlation with the feasts. 3 of them anyway. Unleavened, weeks and tabernacles. Those 3 may very will work together in coordination with the signs we have been given. Between the fall harvest is trumpets and atonement. Harvest and trumpets (the months of Av, Ekul and Tishri) seem to compare well with 1 Corinthians 1 Thessalonians, and Matthew 24.

Elin · May 17, 2015

VCO said:

Elin said:

You do know that there are prophecies that have not happened yet, that seem to point to a full scale Nuclear War in the mid-east, PRIOR to HIS Second Coming? That War will leave Iraq, western Iran, several major Cities in Syria, portions of Israel, and Southern Jordan, totally destroyed and uninhabited; and most of Iraq, Southern Jordan, and those Cities in Syria will remain uninhabited from generation to generation, and no one will even camp their overnight. WHY? Most likely because of the radio active remains in the soil.

Sounds reasonable. . .

Who is Harold Camping?

Elin · May 17, 2015

VCO said:

Yes, they were grafted in because many of the natural branches were barren and producing no fruit,
so the vine dresser improved his vine to make it more fruitful.

VCO · May 17, 2015

Elin said:

NO, the branches that do no bare fruit are cut off an thrown in the fire.

Of the remaining branches, HE SHOWS NO FAVORITISM.

John 15:5-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] “I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

Galatians 5:18-26 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. {That is talking about lifestyle characteristics, not one time sins. Whatever you practice, you get better at.}
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Psalm 106:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] How happy are those who uphold justice, who practice righteousness at all times.

The LOVE of God that the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts (Rom. 5:5) the moment we were SAVED by HIS GRACE, produces a desire to show our Love for God, by practicing righteousness.

Romans 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is no favoritism with God.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

They were NOT true branches that became barren, but rather, then were never really part of the vine in the first place, and even if they think they were grafted in, the graft was never done correctly, thus they never bore any fruit.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me {are born again}, you will keep My commands.

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

VCO · May 17, 2015

Elin said:

Wow, I thought every one heard of the False Prophet Harold Camping. He predicted the Day the World would END at least three different dates, and was wrong every time. His followers were selling all their property and and homes to give all of that money to him to put up all kinds of big billboards across the USA to get the message out of the exact day the World would END.

Harold Camping was into the FALSE DOCTRINE of Numerology. He made excuses for his mistakes, and mostly blamed an error in math, for his failed predictions. I think the last time he picked a specific date, was for Judgement Day to happen on May 21, 2011. I know of three dates that Harold Camping picked, but I think that May 21 was the last one, but maybe there were more before I heard of him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZxxH6W_QIU

This billboard below went up only in a couple cites after May 21, 2011 in, came and went.

VCO · May 17, 2015

SolidGround said:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 3:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. {If it is coming upon the WHOLE WORLD, we have be somewhere else, than ON THIS WORLD.}

Revelation 6:15-17 (NIV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Revelation 16:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
Revelation 16:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Revelation 15:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

NOW, tell me again how you come to the conclusion that the events of the Great Tribulation described in the book of Revelation have nothing to do with the Wrath of GOD?

YES, all genuine believers will be Called Out when Christ come for HIS BRIDE. But the Holy Spirit does not stop doing what what HE does best, when HE is taken out of the way. HE continues to convict and convert MANY during the Great Tribulation. He had NO PROBLEM doing that before the Day of Pentecost, and HE will have no problem continuing to do that AFTER He is taken out of the way.

One other point, MANY who call themselves Christians, NEVER KNEW HIM in reality. They settled for something far less that an inner person LOVE relationship with HIM as LORD, meaning submitting to HIM as MASTER.

Matthew 7:20-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

GaryA · May 17, 2015

VCO said:

This billboard picture is not real. It is a graphically edited image...

MarcR · May 17, 2015

Elin said:

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophecy, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretion of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophecies in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include symbolic unfulfilled prophecies here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these symbolic unfulfilled prophecies may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt, lib) occuring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib)," means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain Word of God, what I find is that

Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things
(Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled symbolic prophecies, we can say that whatever the meanings of any symbolic unfulfilled prophecies, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the Word of God.

Sarah,

I liked your post because it was well reasoned and well presented; but, I am not in full agreement for these reasons:

In first century Jewish thought there is a concept of a three tiered heaven alluded to in 2 Co 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.
KJV

Within this concept, the atmosphere is regarded as the first heaven.

1 Th 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

IMO, this scenario allows Jesus to rapture the Church without leaving heaven or appearing to anyone but the saints.

I believe the Church will go through part of the tribulation. The Church will experience the wrath of man and of Satan; but, NOT the wrath of God.

I believe that the first five seals have already been opened; and that the Rapture will occur after the sixth seal is opened ; but before the seventh.

If my analysis is correct everything in your presentation is correct ; but the conclusion must be adjusted to allow for a mid-trib rapture.

If you find my analysis faulty, I'd love to discuss it.

VCO · May 17, 2015

GaryA said:

I did some research and I found others that found the picture of THAT WAS AWKWARD questionable. The site that I got it from claimed it was in Dallas.

However I must admit that when I thought May 21, 2011 was his last prediction, that too was NOT CORRECT. I found out during that search, that Harold Camping made a 4th End of the World prediction of Oct. 21, 2011. I also found out that people who fell for his false teachings, donated over $80,000,000 in that two year period, leading up to Oct. 21, 2011. How much Christ-like good could that have done to feed those starving in the world, with that money. I really will never understand how so many people get deceived so easily by such False Prophets.

VCO · May 17, 2015

GaryA said:

Here is the site that I got that THAT WAS AWKWARD billboard picture from from, that was awkward | Googli Eyes ; and on another side it mention Dallas and a City in NC had the same billboard, if I remember right.

It showed up on a google search with the rest of the photos of the real Harold Camping billboards.

Here is another:

PlainWord · May 21, 2015

popeye said:

Escape Verses? Please enlighten me.

What escape verses for the church do you find?

The church in heaven??? Where is the "raptured" church in heaven found? I've got to see this. I see a slaughtered Great Multitude who came out of Great Tribulation, the very one you insist we are to avoid. But, no raptured church is shown in heaven.

When does the rapture occur?

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