OSAS doctrine denies the faith
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S
Scripture is clear. God is a triune all powerful God. He holds the elements together in His hand. He alone possess the power to save and does so by the work of His Holy Spirit. He is the finisher and perfector of our faith. If one is able to resist the Holy Spirit once indwelled with it....then what kind of a god is God. The whole premise of this thread is an impotent non starter.
The kind of God who loves His creations so very much that He bestowed the gift of "free will" upon them. Unless people do not believe in "free will," then I suppose it would be a valid question.
Scripture states that HE WILL NEVER LEAVE OR FORSAKE US............and He won't, no matter what.......Scripture does not say WE CAN NEVER LEAVE OR FORSAKE HIM...........suppose it's just a wee point, but it is a point.
D
Well it says,
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not intoyour house, neither bid him God speed:
2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Which is probably why Paul comes right out with it this way
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Paul didnt hold back, because he that biddeth him God speed is actually a partaker of his evil deeds
But on a forum you are surrounded by people with different Jesuss as long as you dont recieve their Jesus
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not intoyour house, neither bid him God speed:
2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Which is probably why Paul comes right out with it this way
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Paul didnt hold back, because he that biddeth him God speed is actually a partaker of his evil deeds
But on a forum you are surrounded by people with different Jesuss as long as you dont recieve their Jesus
S
The kind of God who loves His creations so very much that He bestowed the gift of "free will" upon them. Unless people do not believe in "free will," then I suppose it would be a valid question.
Scripture states that HE WILL NEVER LEAVE OR FORSAKE US............and He won't, no matter what.......Scripture does not say WE CAN NEVER LEAVE OR FORSAKE HIM...........suppose it's just a wee point, but it is a point.
What works are we talking about here? What few works is an OSAS proponent supposed to do that would qualify them as being faithful over a few things? Are all OSAS proponents just faithful over a few things? What about the seed received into "good ground" in the Parable of the Sower? Also, if you believe that a believer can die in unconfessed sin or unrepentant sin and still be saved (Like the sin of "lying" or the sin of "looking upon a woman in lust" or "hating a brother"), then what about Ezekiel 33?
Ezekiel 33:12-13 KJV
"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."
Also, let's look at another verse that is near Titus 1:16,
Titus 2:11-12 KJV
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
What did the grace of God that brings salvation teach us? The passage says that it teaches us that denying ungodliness, wordly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. Yet, by what you have told me before, I am getting the impression that you are saying that is not true. For you said that you cannot stop sinning or that you will never be able to stop. Yet the passage above says the grace of God that brings salvation teaches us that we are to deny ungodlinesss and worldly lusts. Yet, it appears by what you have said so far that you are going against that teaching. For one cannot deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and then also say that it is impossible for a believer to stop sinning. Again, that would be like an alcoholic professing they are going to never touch another drop of alcohol ever again and then they turn around the next day and say they will forever be a slave to the demon within their bottle.
Ezekiel 33:12-13 KJV
"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."
Also, let's look at another verse that is near Titus 1:16,
Titus 2:11-12 KJV
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
What did the grace of God that brings salvation teach us? The passage says that it teaches us that denying ungodliness, wordly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. Yet, by what you have told me before, I am getting the impression that you are saying that is not true. For you said that you cannot stop sinning or that you will never be able to stop. Yet the passage above says the grace of God that brings salvation teaches us that we are to deny ungodlinesss and worldly lusts. Yet, it appears by what you have said so far that you are going against that teaching. For one cannot deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and then also say that it is impossible for a believer to stop sinning. Again, that would be like an alcoholic professing they are going to never touch another drop of alcohol ever again and then they turn around the next day and say they will forever be a slave to the demon within their bottle.
Where does Jude say they were "born again" but then later fall away? He didn't say anything about (good) fruit for a time either. The book of Jude also describes these men in verse 4 as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. This is not descriptive of those who are born again. A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit (without fruit) then being uprooted is twice dead.
I see that the KJV added "tress whose fruit withereth" (bad fruit does wither) but the majority of translations simply say "without fruit." The NAS translation says "..trees without fruit, doubly dead.. I'm not seeing a loss of salvation here. I'm seeing no salvation at all. *Look at verse 19 - These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
Notice in Jude 12 that these trees are "uprooted."
Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant will be "uprooted."
I see that the KJV added "tress whose fruit withereth" (bad fruit does wither) but the majority of translations simply say "without fruit." The NAS translation says "..trees without fruit, doubly dead.. I'm not seeing a loss of salvation here. I'm seeing no salvation at all. *Look at verse 19 - These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
Notice in Jude 12 that these trees are "uprooted."
Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant will be "uprooted."
No, they will always be your children, however are there not earthly instances when a child in rebellion has refused to acknowledge his father? I've seen this many times in the past, and even today it is happening.
Rebellion from God, disobedience of God must separate us from Him.......can God abide in a rebellious and disobedient heart? Maybe, but it would seem contrary to what Scripture says in my opinion.
Real life example. I know a man and woman who were for many years devoted believers. Honest, sincere servants of Christ. Then a tragedy struck them that shook their faith to the ground. An infant child died. Both were devastated to the point of questioning God. Now, this is not unusual, it happens more often than we would believe I suspect.
The woman continued in church, seeking love and support from the congregation and counseling from the Pastor as to why God would allow such a thing to happen? Over two years she struggled with this before she could understand and come to terms with the reality of this life...........none of us are promised tomorrow, and God's ways are not our ways, and His reasons are not our reasons, and such. She is still a member of the congregation and more productive than ever as I see it.
The man was so devastated, that he left the church, turned to alcohol, drugs, and the world for solace. His implosion of faith was pretty much complete. He cursed the idea that a God, any God could allow the death of his child who was guilty of nothing more than being loved. He divorced his wife. He returned to the world, and as far as I know, he remains there, in full rebellion and disobedience to God with no faith in God.
If this man dies without reconciliation, will he go to heaven? I haven't heard of him for many years, so don't know his current state, or even if he is still alive. God DID NOT LEAVE OR FORSAKE him, he forsook God. God will not forsake him, IF he is still alive, repents, confesses and returns to God, God will return to him.
In my humble opinion, this is what the Scripture is teaching us when it says He will never forsake or leave us.
Anyway, just my thoughts.........
Rebellion from God, disobedience of God must separate us from Him.......can God abide in a rebellious and disobedient heart? Maybe, but it would seem contrary to what Scripture says in my opinion.
Real life example. I know a man and woman who were for many years devoted believers. Honest, sincere servants of Christ. Then a tragedy struck them that shook their faith to the ground. An infant child died. Both were devastated to the point of questioning God. Now, this is not unusual, it happens more often than we would believe I suspect.
The woman continued in church, seeking love and support from the congregation and counseling from the Pastor as to why God would allow such a thing to happen? Over two years she struggled with this before she could understand and come to terms with the reality of this life...........none of us are promised tomorrow, and God's ways are not our ways, and His reasons are not our reasons, and such. She is still a member of the congregation and more productive than ever as I see it.
The man was so devastated, that he left the church, turned to alcohol, drugs, and the world for solace. His implosion of faith was pretty much complete. He cursed the idea that a God, any God could allow the death of his child who was guilty of nothing more than being loved. He divorced his wife. He returned to the world, and as far as I know, he remains there, in full rebellion and disobedience to God with no faith in God.
If this man dies without reconciliation, will he go to heaven? I haven't heard of him for many years, so don't know his current state, or even if he is still alive. God DID NOT LEAVE OR FORSAKE him, he forsook God. God will not forsake him, IF he is still alive, repents, confesses and returns to God, God will return to him.
In my humble opinion, this is what the Scripture is teaching us when it says He will never forsake or leave us.
Anyway, just my thoughts.........
Jesus considers his mother, brothers, and sisters as those who does the will of the Father (See Matthew 12:48-50). The Father told everything Jesus was supposed to say and do. Jesus' ministry and salvation of the world had been memorialized in part into Scripture. Everything Jesus said and did was consistent with Scripture and God's Law. The Father was one with Jesus and Jesus was one with HIm. They were of the same mind. So the commands in Scripture given by Jesus came from the Father. It is the Father's will that you obey the commands given by Jesus as written by Scripture because He told Jesus to say those Commands. So if one is obeying God's Commands in the New Testament (Not the Old Testament), then they are doing the Father's will. If one is doing the Father's will then they are Jesus's brothers, sisters and mother. In other words, to be a part of God's family one must obey Jesus.
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V
Oh, spare me your false amazement! She posted God's word, yes, but out of context, as eternally-gratefull clearly stated. He also posted the remainder of the passage so as to establish the context that was missing.
Your efforts to impugn e-g with the smear that he claims "God's words lie" is just more evidence of mounting pile showing you to be a heretic, a false teacher, and not a child of God. You should be banned from the site for lying when you answered in the affirmative that you are a Christian. He does not know you.
Your efforts to impugn e-g with the smear that he claims "God's words lie" is just more evidence of mounting pile showing you to be a heretic, a false teacher, and not a child of God. You should be banned from the site for lying when you answered in the affirmative that you are a Christian. He does not know you.
D
Heres a few verses on forsaking... "Let... for..."
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness;
and be content with such things as ye have:
for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Theres one place where David tells His Son Solomon about forsaking the LORD here
1 Chr 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Psalam 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD,
hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief,
in departing from the living God.
Jerm 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed,
And they that depart from me shall be written in the earth,
because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness;
and be content with such things as ye have:
for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Theres one place where David tells His Son Solomon about forsaking the LORD here
1 Chr 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Psalam 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD,
hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief,
in departing from the living God.
Jerm 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed,
And they that depart from me shall be written in the earth,
because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
Incredibly judgmental. What spirit is it that condemns those who name the name of Christ?
I do not agree with all the stuff people on CC believe but it is no where near the line you so freely cross in tearing and rending others whom you obviously deem to be inferior to yourself.
Works and obedience flow out of salvation. Works and obedience do not flow into salvation. There is a spirit that turns the things of God around to make the truth a lie and the lie to appear as the truth. That spirit is not the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:10
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I do not agree with all the stuff people on CC believe but it is no where near the line you so freely cross in tearing and rending others whom you obviously deem to be inferior to yourself.
Works and obedience flow out of salvation. Works and obedience do not flow into salvation. There is a spirit that turns the things of God around to make the truth a lie and the lie to appear as the truth. That spirit is not the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:10
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Couple of thoughts to consider;
The parable of sowing seeds...........and the examples given
The Epistle to the Galatians
Jesus speaking of "those who endure"
Jesus spoke of a great falling away.........of love waxing cold I believe
The usual response to this issue by those who believe in OSAS is that those who fall away, turn from God were never saved to begin with.............that is an "easy out" in my opinion only I suppose. Easier to believe that than to believe in the precious God given gift of "free will."
OSAS is almost..................I say ALMOST the same ideology as Calvinism, not quite, but very close. I don't accept Calvin's theology either.
Now.........LET ME SAY THIS.......for all who believe in OSAS........ok, it is your God given right, but please be sure to strive to stay in obedience to Him rather than believe one can do as they wish and still go to heaven.
Disobedience to God and rebellion from God is not the "way" to heaven in my opinion.
The parable of sowing seeds...........and the examples given
The Epistle to the Galatians
Jesus speaking of "those who endure"
Jesus spoke of a great falling away.........of love waxing cold I believe
The usual response to this issue by those who believe in OSAS is that those who fall away, turn from God were never saved to begin with.............that is an "easy out" in my opinion only I suppose. Easier to believe that than to believe in the precious God given gift of "free will."
OSAS is almost..................I say ALMOST the same ideology as Calvinism, not quite, but very close. I don't accept Calvin's theology either.
Now.........LET ME SAY THIS.......for all who believe in OSAS........ok, it is your God given right, but please be sure to strive to stay in obedience to Him rather than believe one can do as they wish and still go to heaven.
Disobedience to God and rebellion from God is not the "way" to heaven in my opinion.
It is tough to hear, but if....
He was once enlightened, had tasted of the heavenly gift, was made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, had tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and then he rejected Jesus Christ as His Savior and or His existence, thereby falling away from having faith in Christ, then it would be impossible for him to renew himself back to the faith again by repentance. Why? Well, he would be crucifying to himself the Son of God afresh, and putting him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6).
However, if he was merely backslidding into sin and still believed in Jesus Christ as His Savior, then he can repent and come back to the faith to the saving of his soul (See James 5:19-20).
He was once enlightened, had tasted of the heavenly gift, was made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, had tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and then he rejected Jesus Christ as His Savior and or His existence, thereby falling away from having faith in Christ, then it would be impossible for him to renew himself back to the faith again by repentance. Why? Well, he would be crucifying to himself the Son of God afresh, and putting him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6).
However, if he was merely backslidding into sin and still believed in Jesus Christ as His Savior, then he can repent and come back to the faith to the saving of his soul (See James 5:19-20).
V
Let's deal with this crap while we're at it, too. You've been told before, by me and by others, that the modern translations inexplicably carry over a bad translation from the KJV for no good reason.
The word wrongly translated "takes away" is the Greek airo (airo), meaning in reality "lift up." Then and now, a storm afflicting a vineyard would result in the vinedresser going through the vineyard the next day, brush and a bucket of soapy water in hand. Finding a branch knocked down into the mud, he cleans it off, gently lifts it up, and ties it back into the trellis so it will grow healthy and bear fruit.
Go to any vineyard in the U.S., you will still see this process today. Jesus used a strong real-life example of how He heals broken Christians. But you would have people believe He is short-tempered, ill-willed, and condemns them for being human. You are to be shamed and rejected for such nonsense.
This is exactly what Jesus is talking about, but you again twist, lie, and misrepresent God's words so as to mislead the brothers and sisters on here immature enough in the faith not to know you are a false teach, a heretic, and deservedly ignored for your complete lack of knowledge, and your utter lack of Christ in you.
The word wrongly translated "takes away" is the Greek airo (airo), meaning in reality "lift up." Then and now, a storm afflicting a vineyard would result in the vinedresser going through the vineyard the next day, brush and a bucket of soapy water in hand. Finding a branch knocked down into the mud, he cleans it off, gently lifts it up, and ties it back into the trellis so it will grow healthy and bear fruit.
Go to any vineyard in the U.S., you will still see this process today. Jesus used a strong real-life example of how He heals broken Christians. But you would have people believe He is short-tempered, ill-willed, and condemns them for being human. You are to be shamed and rejected for such nonsense.
This is exactly what Jesus is talking about, but you again twist, lie, and misrepresent God's words so as to mislead the brothers and sisters on here immature enough in the faith not to know you are a false teach, a heretic, and deservedly ignored for your complete lack of knowledge, and your utter lack of Christ in you.
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Not going to belabor the concept of OSAS............you can read through my few comments to see my thoughts, and we are all entitled to our thoughts/beliefs. My only comment is that the embolden part of your comment is a common misunderstanding of Paul's teaching here.............in my opinion...........
The precious blood of Jesus redeems us from ALL SINS.......past, present, and future.........He died ONCE for all time. Those as I spoke of will suffer for their sins in the flesh.......and Christ will not be sacrificed again......just my thoughts
But, this can go on and on and on, and I have given my stance/beliefs........should suffice.
God bless
The precious blood of Jesus redeems us from ALL SINS.......past, present, and future.........He died ONCE for all time. Those as I spoke of will suffer for their sins in the flesh.......and Christ will not be sacrificed again......just my thoughts
But, this can go on and on and on, and I have given my stance/beliefs........should suffice.
God bless