OSAS doctrine denies the faith

Cee · May 22, 2015

Jason -
This will be my last post.

At least you have reasons to believe what you do. But mark my words, what your teaching will bring people as far as the Pharisees they will not do the things they shouldn't like chopping off people's heads. But it is the love of God that takes us beyond the things we shouldn't be doing. It is an understanding of who we now are in Christ. This is how we walk in radical signs and wonders, like seeing people healed, which I do quite often. Because Christ in me. And the reality that He has worked in me.

Also knowing the Spirit of God and His voice (He is our Teacher) comes from knowing we are a new creation. With new hearts. Not old hearts. Unlike the Pharisees. Sure people may go to church (and do holy things) but Christ is calling us to a far higher realm than that...

One of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, and righteousness - just to name a few...

Calling us into a place of loving Him and loving each other. Not just focusing on what we can't taste, touch, or do. And this transformation only comes from knowing the love of the Father. And I have not heard you mention love of the Father in your teachings. Even though Scripture says we only love Him because He loved us first. I spent some time with you because I can tell your heart is to do good. Bless you and thank you for taking the time to share your beliefs.

As far as attacking you, it wasn't my intention, merely to make the idea that we have to hang out with God and that others will willfully sin if they think they can more personal. Not because I think you're a bad person. Or I felt the need to. I have shown you plenty of Scripture that supports my position. I have explained my position in response to the Scripture you offered as well.

But unfortunately, you have not addressed the positions of Scripture that say we are dead to sin, new creations, and many others. As far as 1 John it is telling us we need to confess to Him. As in conversion to be saved, not in a lifestyle of confession to stay saved. As many have been taught. And Romans 7 is also doing the same thing, explaining the need for a Savior (Which you see in Romans 8), not saying we will always struggle with sin. Even though that is the reality many face because they are taught they have to do. Instead of resting in the Vine as His branches and naturally bearing fruit.

I understand your reservations. And you're right. It's too bad those people were mislead. But that's not my position. And if anyone told me they wanted to kill someone, I would question their salvation. Obviously. But, there are many more people dying desperately because people are so busy trying to keep their salvation they don't help those around them. And they don't love people. They are sarcastic, attacking people, because they don't know the love of the Father.

They don't have an identity because they have never been given an identity from the Father. They are orphans still trying to earn their way. And this leads to fear and self-protection, which ultimately results in sin. It's not your strength of will that keeps you but knowing the goodness and kindness of God. This is what testimonials do for the world. But what testimonial do we have to share when we say I have worked so hard just to stay right with God?

And what does holiness even look like? Is it going to Church? Is it not killing people? Is it not lying? What if you lie once? Or does it not matter since you just ask forgiveness? So you simply kill people and then ask forgiveness? Or does God not forgive you? Doesn't the Bible tell us if you miss even a simply law you break them all? It's a slippery slope my friend that this message of trying to keep your salvation puts people on...

Remember this: Peter knew how much He loved Jesus. John knew how much Jesus loved Him. And Peter denied Him while John came back to the cross when Jesus needed him most. John also was blessed to take care of Jesus' mom. This life we can be lived avoiding sin or by chasing love. I prefer to chase love. And to be loved. And to love others as I am. Freely giving what I have received.

Bless you brother,

C.

Jason0047 · May 22, 2015

Cee said:

Jason -
This will be my last post.

At least you have reasons to believe what you do. But mark my words, what your teaching will bring people as far as the Pharisees they will not do the things they shouldn't like chopping off people's heads. But it is the love of God that takes us beyond the things we shouldn't be doing. It is an understanding of who we now are in Christ. This is how we walk in radical signs and wonders, like seeing people healed, which I do quite often. Because Christ in me. And the reality that He has worked in me.

Also knowing the Spirit of God and His voice (He is our Teacher) comes from knowing we are a new creation. With new hearts. Not old hearts. Unlike the Pharisees. Sure people may go to church (and do holy things) but Christ is calling us to a far higher realm than that...

One of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, and righteousness - just to name a few...

Calling us into a place of loving Him and loving each other. Not just focusing on what we can't taste, touch, or do. And this transformation only comes from knowing the love of the Father. And I have not heard you mention love of the Father in your teachings. Even though Scripture says we only love Him because He loved us first. I spent some time with you because I can tell your heart is to do good. Bless you and thank you for taking the time to share your beliefs.

As far as attacking you, it wasn't my intention, merely to make the idea that we have to hang out with God and that others will willfully sin if they think they can more personal. Not because I think you're a bad person. Or I felt the need to. I have shown you plenty of Scripture that supports my position. I have explained my position in response to the Scripture you offered as well.

But unfortunately, you have not addressed the positions of Scripture that say we are dead to sin, new creations, and many others. As far as 1 John it is telling us we need to confess to Him. As in conversion to be saved, not in a lifestyle of confession to stay saved. As many have been taught. And Romans 7 is also doing the same thing, explaining the need for a Savior (Which you see in Romans 8), not saying we will always struggle with sin. Even though that is the reality many face because they are taught they have to do. Instead of resting in the Vine as His branches and naturally bearing fruit.

I understand your reservations. And you're right. It's too bad those people were mislead. But that's not my position. And if anyone told me they wanted to kill someone, I would question their salvation. Obviously. But, there are many more people dying desperately because people are so busy trying to keep their salvation they don't help those around them. And they don't love people. They are sarcastic, attacking people, because they don't know the love of the Father.

They don't have an identity because they have never been given an identity from the Father. They are orphans still trying to earn their way. And this leads to fear and self-protection, which ultimately results in sin. It's not your strength of will that keeps you but knowing the goodness and kindness of God. This is what testimonials do for the world. But what testimonial do we have to share when we say I have worked so hard just to stay right with God?

And what does holiness even look like? Is it going to Church? Is it not killing people? Is it not lying? What if you lie once? Or does it not matter since you just ask forgiveness? So you simply kill people and then ask forgiveness? Or does God not forgive you? Doesn't the Bible tell us if you miss even a simply law you break them all? It's a slippery slope my friend that this message of trying to keep your salvation puts people on...

Remember this: Peter knew how much He loved Jesus. John knew how much Jesus loved Him. And Peter denied Him while John came back to the cross when Jesus needed him most. John also was blessed to take care of Jesus' mom. This life we can be lived avoiding sin or by chasing love. I prefer to chase love. And to be loved. And to love others as I am. Freely giving what I have received.

Bless you brother,

C.

So a Christian can abide in some kind of sin like say lying and or looking upon women in lust with no actual remorse and still be saved as long as they have a general way of holiness to them?

As for 1 John 1:9.... you are ignoring what it plainly says.

As for the miracles you do: Read Matthew 7 of those who did miracles in his name. In other words, miracles is not proof that one is if God. Actually 1 John 3:10 describes a true believer.

Jason0047 · May 22, 2015

Cee said:

Jason -
This will be my last post.

At least you have reasons to believe what you do. But mark my words, what your teaching will bring people as far as the Pharisees they will not do the things they shouldn't like chopping off people's heads. But it is the love of God that takes us beyond the things we shouldn't be doing. It is an understanding of who we now are in Christ. This is how we walk in radical signs and wonders, like seeing people healed, which I do quite often. Because Christ in me. And the reality that He has worked in me.

Also knowing the Spirit of God and His voice (He is our Teacher) comes from knowing we are a new creation. With new hearts. Not old hearts. Unlike the Pharisees. Sure people may go to church (and do holy things) but Christ is calling us to a far higher realm than that...

One of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, and righteousness - just to name a few...

Calling us into a place of loving Him and loving each other. Not just focusing on what we can't taste, touch, or do. And this transformation only comes from knowing the love of the Father. And I have not heard you mention love of the Father in your teachings. Even though Scripture says we only love Him because He loved us first. I spent some time with you because I can tell your heart is to do good. Bless you and thank you for taking the time to share your beliefs.

As far as attacking you, it wasn't my intention, merely to make the idea that we have to hang out with God and that others will willfully sin if they think they can more personal. Not because I think you're a bad person. Or I felt the need to. I have shown you plenty of Scripture that supports my position. I have explained my position in response to the Scripture you offered as well.

But unfortunately, you have not addressed the positions of Scripture that say we are dead to sin, new creations, and many others. As far as 1 John it is telling us we need to confess to Him. As in conversion to be saved, not in a lifestyle of confession to stay saved. As many have been taught. And Romans 7 is also doing the same thing, explaining the need for a Savior (Which you see in Romans 8), not saying we will always struggle with sin. Even though that is the reality many face because they are taught they have to do. Instead of resting in the Vine as His branches and naturally bearing fruit.

I understand your reservations. And you're right. It's too bad those people were mislead. But that's not my position. And if anyone told me they wanted to kill someone, I would question their salvation. Obviously. But, there are many more people dying desperately because people are so busy trying to keep their salvation they don't help those around them. And they don't love people. They are sarcastic, attacking people, because they don't know the love of the Father.

They don't have an identity because they have never been given an identity from the Father. They are orphans still trying to earn their way. And this leads to fear and self-protection, which ultimately results in sin. It's not your strength of will that keeps you but knowing the goodness and kindness of God. This is what testimonials do for the world. But what testimonial do we have to share when we say I have worked so hard just to stay right with God?

And what does holiness even look like? Is it going to Church? Is it not killing people? Is it not lying? What if you lie once? Or does it not matter since you just ask forgiveness? So you simply kill people and then ask forgiveness? Or does God not forgive you? Doesn't the Bible tell us if you miss even a simply law you break them all? It's a slippery slope my friend that this message of trying to keep your salvation puts people on...

Remember this: Peter knew how much He loved Jesus. John knew how much Jesus loved Him. And Peter denied Him while John came back to the cross when Jesus needed him most. John also was blessed to take care of Jesus' mom. This life we can be lived avoiding sin or by chasing love. I prefer to chase love. And to be loved. And to love others as I am. Freely giving what I have received.

Bless you brother,

C.

So a Christian can abide in some kind of sin like say lying and or looking upon women in lust with no actual remorse and still be saved as long as they have a general way of holiness to them while they have a belief on Jesus?

As for 1 John 1:9.... you are ignoring what it plainly says. Do you want to discuss what it says?

As for the miracles you do: Read Matthew 7 of those who did miracles in his name. In other words, miracles i) are not proof that one is if God. Actually 1 John 3:10 describes a true believer.

Jason0047 · May 22, 2015

As for being "dead to sin.": Well, this is not a license for a person to sin. This does not mean Christians are immune to sin and that they should never worry about it. If a person sins, they need to confess their sin in order to be forgiven of it. It's what 1 John 1:9 plainly says.

Also, here is the context of being dead to sin:

"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:11-16).

Did you catch that? Paul says you are servants to whom you obey. Whether one is a servant of sin unto death or whether one is a servant of obedience unto righteousness.

But how do we really know for sure we are not supposed to sin as believers? Let's keep reading.

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. " (Romans 6:17-18).

Again. Did you catch that? It says we WERE servants of sin but we OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered unto us. So we then became.... servants of righteousness. So you see. There is no such thing as a "sin and still be saved" doctrine in the Bible. Such a teaching is pure evil and you know it. For he that sins is of the devil and he that does righteousness is righteous.

Jason0047 · May 22, 2015

For if there was one valuable thing I learned from reading comic books as a kid..... it's that bad guys do bad and good guys do good. Jesus and his people are good guys. They are not bad guys. There is no getting away with even a small amount of sin. If a believer dies in unrepentant sin like lying, they are not saved. Why? Is it because God is unfair? No. God gives all people a chance to repent and God knows if a person's heart is wicked or not (and they prefer to love their sin more than Him). For the greatest commandments is to love God and to love all people.

Yet, also we are to reprove the unfruitful works of darkness, though. Not in hate; But in love.

Jason0047 · May 22, 2015

Also, the Scriptures do not teach that we are purified the moment we start the race.

What does 1 Peter 1:23 say?

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23).

So if we were to just read this verse and then "stop" at this point, we could conclude that we are forever purified in our souls the moment we are born again. Right? No. That would not be true.

Let's look and see what the verse before it says,

1 Peter 1:22
"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:"

Wow. Did you see that my friends? It says we have purified our souls in OBEYING the truth THRU the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren. Hence, why we are to love the brethren fervently with a pure heart.

For love fulfills the law.

And God is love.

So if one loves.

I mean, if one truly loves, then it is the proof that God is living within them (Who is the source of their salvation).

God does not force people to be saved.

Love is never forced.

Love is always a free will choice between two parties.

pwrnJC · May 22, 2015

Purification vs. Sanctification...seems to be the same thing. All based on the BLOOD of Christ, cleansing us. All happens upon being Forgiven when we accept CHRIST as our Savior. One goes hand in hand with the other...Neither can be accomplished without the Comforter. Both are continuing processes that ultimately reach their pinnacle when we leave this earth and enter heaven. Both are actually FREE for the seeking. Both require ACTION. Therefore, I will not try to separate the two.

Jason0047 · May 22, 2015

pwrnJC said:

Um, well, we cannot purifiy or sanctify our own souls without the Spirit. One needs the Spirit. For it is the Spirit that actually sanctifies a person. It is God living within a person who helps them to obey. It is not of their own fleshy effort. One merely yields to the work of God within them. For there is none good but God. Yes, we have free will. Yes, we must take action. But it is more of a yielding to God then it is us... doing it all ourselves of our own power. For it is why the 24 elders had cast down their crowns before Jesus.

Sirk · May 22, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Um, well, we cannot purifiy or sanctify our own souls without the Spirit. One needs the Spirit. For it is the Spirit that actually sanctifies a person. It is God living within a person who helps them to obey. It is not of their own fleshy effort. One merely yield to the work of God He wants to do in us. For there is none good but God.

Keep going...youre almost there.

Jason0047 · May 22, 2015

However, that said, God does not cover a person's iniquities that they are committing in the present moment. If a believer sins again, they need to confess of sin in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9). Also, in order for the blood to be applied, a believer has to walk in the light as he is in the light (1 John 1:7).

Sirk · May 22, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Sirk said:

Jason0047 said:

and....he's gone.

kennethcadwell · May 22, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I do not agree with everything you say as you do go a little overly righteous in some points which is shown in the bible to also be the wrong direction.
However I do find it kind of odd how people still take and avoid or not believe in 1 John chapters 1 and 2 when they are clear cut. As it clearly shows future sins do have to be confessed to be forgiven, and then from chapter 2 through to chapter 4 John clearly shows one's walk (actions) proves if they abide in Christ and Christ abides in them. Yet some will debate or argue tell they are blue in the face that actions/walk do not matter for salvation.

The bible clearly shows that a true faith is an active faith that will show out in our actions and speech, and it also shows that if those actions are not there then that person is not saved. This is because those actions come from the fruit of the Holy Spirit working within a person, and Jesus says a branch that produces no fruit is to be cut off and burned............

JesusIsAll · May 22, 2015

John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise [never] cast out.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

2 Corinthians 1:22 And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? [the devil, deceivers] It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

1 John 5:10-13 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Psalm 34:22 The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

Jude 24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

eternallife7 · May 22, 2015

Cee said:

I disagree the only reason people might assume osas is false is a. many followers of Satan pose as Christians and therefore confuse people about how true Christians act and b they do not have enough faith in God. This is because God says the if we confess in our mouth and beleive in our hearts we will be saved. Also to think that Romans 3:19-21 1 Timothy 1:9 Hebrews 8:13 the whole book of Galatians and many other scriptures in NT do not have merit and that people who take these verses seriously need to repent, I'm sorry but that is complete error. I am not posting these to argue I just realize that many others are reading these posts and might need help seeing the Gospel clearly.

SolidGround · May 22, 2015

Having eternal security in Christ does not leave any excuse for sin.
There is no excuse for sin, especially for a Believer.

OSAS is not a doctrine for babes in Christ, and should not be preached to babes. They do not understand, and think it is an excuse to sin, because they have no self control. It is the type of meat that chokes the babes that need milk.
We see many here spitting it out. LET THEM!
Security and assurance in salvation comes with time, faithfulness, and maturity. Give them the Gospel, which strengthens them, and let the assurance come with the strength in due time.

If a person is still working out their salvation, don't tell them that they are already saved. What if they actually aren't?
Encourage them to pursue righteousness. Encourage them in love.
Let the Word explain predestination and eternal security to them in His own timing.

p_rehbein · May 22, 2015

Grandpa said:

Doesn't a legalist have to deny OSAS?

It wouldn't make sense to be a legalist and then agree with OSAS would it?

No, if you don't do the things the legalists think must be done then I am sure salvation must be on the line. Otherwise there is no power in their anti-gospel.

Interesting thought about people who are backed into a corner with their "theology".

Likewise, I suppose someone who believes in Grace through Faith and it being a Gift of God wouldn't believe that Gift could be taken away. The scriptures say that God doesn't repent of His Gifts. So I guess you would have to be a dumb believer in Grace to believe that Grace would be taken away.

What is Grace for anyway? Is there ever a time when we don't need it? Is it just for kids?

I wonder how we can see things so differently.

Hey, I didn't know you were a Calvinist, interesting. Hmm

Jeff_56 · May 22, 2015

Jesus, Ken, Jason and a few others VS Jesus opponents: Angela53xxx, Grand(not)pa and Jesus(notme)IsAll, s(m)irk and eternal(not)life and many others....

who will win? what will be the outcome ? stay tuned for HIS WORD in the days to come. yahweh is always faithful and true, though all men be liars....

kennethcadwell · May 22, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

I will repost this again as a true faith is an active faith, and will add that the reason OSAS is refuted is there are many scriptures from Jesus to Jude that refute this teaching. Those who defend OSAS faulty in return use that false debate toward us of works based salvation.

Salvation is not based on works, but it is based on a faith in Christ.

The bible clearly shows that one's faith if it is true will abound by the fruits of the Spirit, and love is the greatest fruit that will be evident. The bible shows if one hates another they do not have eternal life abiding in them, for eternal life only comes through Christ and Christ abounds in love.
Apostle Paul clearly shows multiple times that ones actions, speech, and obedience will be evident on if they are saved. Apostle John also shows from 1 John 2-4 what your walk would look like if you abide in Christ and Christ abides in you.

Lord Jesus, Paul, James, Jude, and Peter all say that false teachers will lead many astray, and the Apostle James says that if a brother/sister in the faith wanders away from the Lord back to sin, if we go and lead them back to the Lord we will save their soul from death. That one verse in James 5 refutes OSAS, because it clearly shows that one who falls away from the Lord back to a sinful lifestyle their soul is condemned unless they repent and come back to the Lord......

Sirk · May 22, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

I'm sure you'll tell us your secret knowledge soon enough....can't wait.

Reborn · May 22, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

Jesus?

How dare you call Him that? Call Him by His proper name, Jeffie.
Legalist.

OSAS doctrine denies the faith

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