When does the rapture occur?

[SolidGround]

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 3:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. {If it is coming upon the WHOLE WORLD, we have be somewhere else, than ON THIS WORLD.}

Revelation 6:15-17 (NIV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Revelation 16:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
Revelation 16:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Revelation 15:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


NOW, tell me again how you come to the conclusion that the events of the Great Tribulation described in the book of Revelation have nothing to do with the Wrath of GOD?

YES, all genuine believers will be Called Out when Christ come for HIS BRIDE. But the Holy Spirit does not stop doing what what HE does best, when HE is taken out of the way. HE continues to convict and convert MANY during the Great Tribulation. He had NO PROBLEM doing that before the Day of Pentecost, and HE will have no problem continuing to do that AFTER He is taken out of the way.

One other point, MANY who call themselves Christians, NEVER KNEW HIM in reality. They settled for something far less that an inner person LOVE relationship with HIM as LORD, meaning submitting to HIM as MASTER.


Matthew 7:20-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

I did not say that there is no Wrath during the last 7 years, but that IF we are around during those years, we will not be appointed to it. If Wrath occurs on earth during our time, we will be sealed, sheltered, and spared.

The hour of temptation/testing/trial and the day of Wrath ARE NOT the same. Also, that verse is not a general promise, but a specific prophetic reward. It is not intended to be misapplied unto all the Church.

I will not support one view or another, but what I will mention is Revelation 1:9, and also that reading Revelation as applying to others, and not to ourselves, is not a helpful or spiritual outlook.
The Book of Revelation was given to the CHURCH, because it is for the Church. It is useful information for Today, not a mere roadmap for some future generation that is not part of the Church.

If we are not viewing the Book as applying to the Church, then why was it given to us?
If we will not be there (the Church) for these events, then why was it given to us?
Does God give prophecy without use? Never.
Just as the OT prophecy was useful to the generation and group given it, so the NT prophecy is useful to the generation and group given it.
Just as much of the OT prophecy was mysteriously veiled to those who heard it before the Coming of Christ,
so the NT will be unveiled at His Return.

Useful, and yet a mystery. Focus on the use, not the mystery. The mystery will be revealed in it's time.
If it was not for us, then it would have been sealed away with the rest of the prophecies that will be revealed in the Last Days: those will be for only the Last Generation. We can but wonder at what they might tell.

 

[PlainWord]

And THAT is the "fatal flaw" which prevents so many people from seeing the truth of the scriptures regarding the End Times Scenario.

For as long as a person refuses to use the biblical event-based definition to shape their understanding, they will "miss the obvious" because they are "blinded" by the [ Satan-inspired ] man-made definition.

The idea illustrated in the quote bubble does NOT correctly define the Great Tribulation according to the scriptures. These verses DO:


Matthew 24:

[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Using [ only ] the biblical event-based definition as a foundation for the study of the End Times Scenario will yield a proper result...


The Bible tells us when the Great Tribulation begins and when it ends. Careful study, based on the proper [ biblical ] definition, will show that the 'Wrath of God' occurs AFTER the END of the Great Tribulation ( with 'events' in between, in fact -- namely, the "two witnesses" / "trumpet events" - which are also not part of the Great Tribulation as defined in biblical 'event' terms ).

Please listen to Gary on this those who have the Tribulation and Wrath of God intertwined, Gary is speaking the truth and he states it so perfectly!! Look at the events as Christ describes between Mat 24 verses 21 and 29 and you will find no wrath of God. Instead what you find is deception and mass killing - all which are of Satan.

 

[PlainWord]

I did not say that there is no Wrath during the last 7 years, but that IF we are around during those years, we will not be appointed to it. If Wrath occurs on earth during our time, we will be sealed, sheltered, and spared.

The hour of temptation/testing/trial and the day of Wrath ARE NOT the same. Also, that verse is not a general promise, but a specific prophetic reward. It is not intended to be misapplied unto all the Church.

I will not support one view or another, but what I will mention is Revelation 1:9, and also that reading Revelation as applying to others, and not to ourselves, is not a helpful or spiritual outlook.
The Book of Revelation was given to the CHURCH, because it is for the Church. It is useful information for Today, not a mere roadmap for some future generation that is not part of the Church.

If we are not viewing the Book as applying to the Church, then why was it given to us?
If we will not be there (the Church) for these events, then why was it given to us?
Does God give prophecy without use? Never.
Just as the OT prophecy was useful to the generation and group given it, so the NT prophecy is useful to the generation and group given it.
Just as much of the OT prophecy was mysteriously veiled to those who heard it before the Coming of Christ,
so the NT will be unveiled at His Return.

Useful, and yet a mystery. Focus on the use, not the mystery. The mystery will be revealed in it's time.
If it was not for us, then it would have been sealed away with the rest of the prophecies that will be revealed in the Last Days: those will be for only the Last Generation. We can but wonder at what they might tell.

Excellent post my friend from Israel!!! I especially loved the part about Revelation being written to the church. Revelation is both a comfort to the persecuted church and it's a warning of what is coming to the church in the latter days. Several churches have lost their way and have forsaken the commandments they were ordered to keep. The faithful will be rewarded. But none get "raptured" before the Tribulation. The tribulation is aimed at the church (and sadly Israel) so the church has to be here for it.

Just wanted to thank you for your contribution to the truth.

 

[SolidGround]

Honestly, I look forward to the Day. I wait in eager expectation of the wicked being finally brought to justice, and the innocent being vindicated and saved from their sufferings. Who will mourn when He Comes to tread the winepress filled with the beheaders and the rapists and the thieves? Who will cry out for those who use chlorine gas on women and children, when they are gathered like twigs to be burned? Who will defend the ones who spread violence in the name of God, when He Comes to blot them out?
None but those who are guilty along with them.

To the righteous, it will be a day of joy when the Wrath finally falls.
To the wicked... cry out for mercy Today, while there is still a day called Today. When Tomorrow comes... mercy will be replaced with justice.

 

[SolidGround]

Excellent post my friend from Israel!!! I especially loved the part about Revelation being written to the church. Revelation is both a comfort to the persecuted church and it's a warning of what is coming to the church in the latter days. Several churches have lost their way and have forsaken the commandments they were ordered to keep. The faithful will be rewarded. But none get "raptured" before the Tribulation. The tribulation is aimed at the church (and sadly Israel) so the church has to be here for it.

Just wanted to thank you for your contribution to the truth.

Yes, God did not give Isaiah prophecies concerning Chinese Emperors or South African Tribes,
but only prophecies dealing with Israel and nations affecting Israel. He does not give prophecies to people who have not connection to them.

 

[PlainWord]

Yes, God did not give Isaiah prophecies concerning Chinese Emperors or South African Tribes,
but only prophecies dealing with Israel and nations affecting Israel. He does not give prophecies to people who have not connection to them.

Exactly!!

I further find it amusing that some believers living in this age think they are going to avoid Tribulation and testing of their faith when Adam and Eve were tested, Christ was tested and the Children of Jacob were also tested throughout time. Then in Revelation 20 we see that after 1,000 years, Satan will be let loose to test (deceive) again. All these other periods require testing but not for us apparently. We are special. .

God Bless you and your family my friend. I haven't been to Israel since I was 18 but trying to come back this fall. What is the general spiritual condition of the Israeli people these days?

 

[PlainWord]

Honestly, I look forward to the Day. I wait in eager expectation of the wicked being finally brought to justice, and the innocent being vindicated and saved from their sufferings. Who will mourn when He Comes to tread the winepress filled with the beheaders and the rapists and the thieves? Who will cry out for those who use chlorine gas on women and children, when they are gathered like twigs to be burned? Who will defend the ones who spread violence in the name of God, when He Comes to blot them out?
None but those who are guilty along with them.

To the righteous, it will be a day of joy when the Wrath finally falls.
To the wicked... cry out for mercy Today, while there is still a day called Today. When Tomorrow comes... mercy will be replaced with justice.

Amen!! Well said.

 

[Called4Christ]

It's great that you (called4Christ) have been stirred, and that you have gone to God rather than man. There are so many interpretations of prophesy and everyone thinks their right. Revelation isn't easy to understand but don't accept anything that contradicts the rest of the bible and use the rest of the bible as a key to understand it. Can i just say that there are 3 main ways to view prophesy, PRETERISM, FUTURISM and HISTORICISM. Take some time to research each of these systems of interpretation and where they came from.
Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Yes, i believe He is coming very soon and i'm not going to miss it because every eye shall see Him coming in clouds.

And Plainword:

Thanks for the encouragement guys, and thanks for the tip TMS! <3

 

[VCO]

I did not say that there is no Wrath during the last 7 years, but that IF we are around during those years, we will not be appointed to it. If Wrath occurs on earth during our time, we will be sealed, sheltered, and spared.

The hour of temptation/testing/trial and the day of Wrath ARE NOT the same. Also, that verse is not a general promise, but a specific prophetic reward. It is not intended to be misapplied unto all the Church.

I will not support one view or another, but what I will mention is Revelation 1:9, and also that reading Revelation as applying to others, and not to ourselves, is not a helpful or spiritual outlook.
The Book of Revelation was given to the CHURCH, because it is for the Church. It is useful information for Today, not a mere roadmap for some future generation that is not part of the Church.

If we are not viewing the Book as applying to the Church, then why was it given to us?
If we will not be there (the Church) for these events, then why was it given to us?
Does God give prophecy without use? Never.
Just as the OT prophecy was useful to the generation and group given it, so the NT prophecy is useful to the generation and group given it.
Just as much of the OT prophecy was mysteriously veiled to those who heard it before the Coming of Christ,
so the NT will be unveiled at His Return.

Useful, and yet a mystery. Focus on the use, not the mystery. The mystery will be revealed in it's time.
If it was not for us, then it would have been sealed away with the rest of the prophecies that will be revealed in the Last Days: those will be for only the Last Generation. We can but wonder at what they might tell.

And we believe that when he said "I will keep you from the hour of trial will come upon the WHOLE EARTH."; it certainly means we have to be somewhere other than on the earth. And we certainly believe "The hour of temptation/testing/trial and the day of Wrath ARE . . . the same."

Revelation 3:10 (ISV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept my command to endure, I will keep you from the hour of testing that is coming to the whole world to test those living on the earth.

3:10 Because the Philadelphians had maintained God's truth by living it before men, the Lord would keep them from the hour of trial which is to come upon all who dwell on the earth. This is a promise of exemption from the Tribulation Period described in chapters 6-19. Note that they will be kept from the hour of trial, that is, from the whole time period. Also they will be kept out of that period (Gk., [FONT=Gentium !important]ek[/FONT]), not through it.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

3:10. The church in Philadelphia received no rebuke from Christ. Instead they were commended and given a promise because they had been willing to endure patiently. The promise was, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. This is an explicit promise that the Philadelphia church will not endure the hour of trial which is unfolded, beginning in Revelation 6. Christ was saying that the Philadelphia church would not enter the future time of trouble; He could not have stated it more explicitly. If Christ had meant to say that they would be preserved through a time of trouble, or would be taken out from within the Tribulation, a different verb and a different preposition would have been required.Though scholars have attempted to avoid this conclusion in order to affirm posttribulationism, the combination of the verb "keep" (tērein) with the preposition "from" (ek) is in sharp contrast to the meaning of keeping the church "through" (dia), a preposition which is not used here. The expression "the hour of trial" (a time period) makes it clear that they would be kept out of that period. It is difficult to see how Christ could have made this promise to this local church if it were God's intention for the entire church to go through the Tribulation that will come on the entire world. Even though the church at Philadelphia would go to glory via death long before the time of trouble would come, if the church here is taken to be typical of the body of Christ standing true to the faith, the promise seems to go beyond the Philadelphia church to all those who are believers in Christ (cf. Walvoord, Revelation, pp. 86-8).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

The Philadelphian church is the church that believed in the Word of God."I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Christ's final word of encouragement to His church is that it will not pass through the Great Tribulation. The church is to be removed from the world (see 1Thess. 4:13-18), which is its comfort and hope (see Titus 2:13). Such is the patient waiting of the church "...who through faith and patience inherit the promises" (Heb. 6:12). The church is not anticipating the Great Tribulation with all of its judgment (see John 5:24; Rev. 13:1-8, 11-17), but rather it is looking for Him to come.
"The hour of temptation" is definitely a reference to the Great Tribulation -- it's worldwide. After the preliminaries are put down in chapters 4 -- 5, in chapters 6 -- 19 you have presented the Great Tribulation period. This is the period that He says is coming upon all the world to test those that are upon the earth.
"I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation." He says that He will keep them not only from that awful holocaust that is coming on this earth, that period of judgment, but also from the hour of temptation. Therefore, this is to my judgment a complete deliverance. When he says, "keep thee from the hour," I have translated it, "keep thee out of the hour of trial." By any stretch of the imagination, you could not say that this church is going through the Great Tribulation period. I believe that the period of the Philadelphian church continues right on through to the rapture of the church. This is the church which will go out at the time of the Rapture.
The church of Laodicea, as we shall see, is an organization which will continue on in the world, although the Lord gives a marvelous invitation to it, and many even in that Laodicean church will turn to Christ and be taken out at the time of the Rapture. But there is a church that goes through the Great Tribulation period, and that is the apostate church, the church of Laodicea.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

3:10 keep you from the hour of trial. Christ’s description—an event still future that for a short time severely tests the whole world—must refer to the time of tribulation, the seven-year period before Christ’s earthly kingdom is consummated, featuring the unleashing of divine wrath in judgments expressed as seals, trumpets, and bowls. This period is described in detail throughout chapters. 6-19. The latter half is called “the Great Tribulation” (7:14; Matt. 24:21) and is identified as to time in 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5. The verb “to keep” is followed by a preposition whose normal meaning is “from” or “out of”—this phrase, “keep... from” supports the pretribulational Rapture of the church (see notes on John 14:1-3; 1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 1 Thess. 4:13-17). This period is the same as Daniel’s seventieth week (see notes on Dan. 9:24-27) and “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (see notes on Jer. 30:7).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

2 Thessalonians chapter 2 seems to teach that the Church will go through the Tribulation period known as “The Day of the Lord.” Is this so?

2 Thessalonians 2:1 refers to the Rapture of the Church with the descriptive phrase “The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.” It is the same event Paul discusses with these same believers in 1 Thes. 4:17. This truth was being threatened by the idea that the Great Tribulation (“The Day of the Lord”) had already arrived and they were experiencing it then.If they, or by extension believers at large, were to undergo part of the Tribulation (as the Mid-Trib position states) or most of it (as the Post-Trib position states), Paul would not have bothered to correct them about the erroneous idea that Christians would go through the Great Tribulation. In point of fact, Paul says quite clearly in 1 Thes. That the Church will not go through that period in which God will pour out His eschatological wrath on an unbelieving world (see 1 Thes. 1:10; 4:13–18; 5:4–11). This prompted Paul to conclude in 2 Thes. 2 that the Day of the Lord will not come prior to the Rapture.
Dr. Zola Levitt

I also will keep you from the hour of trial

The "hour of trial" is the trial of tribulation (chapters 6-19). There is one word in the Greek for the English words "keep" and "from." It is a compound word composed of both terms: keep and out of. The word "from" [literally, out of] indicates that this church will not even enter the tribulation period. This is a guarding from rather than a guarding through. Those in the tribulation will clearly go through this time of trouble (7:4). By inference, God must have been raptured the church before the hour of trial. The point of the tribulation is to get the attention of Israel that Jesus is the Messiah.

God not only keeps this church from trial but from a worldwide "hour of trial." Not only does not deliver us from trial, but He delivers us from a specific time of trial. We call this the Tribulation period. This is a time of unprecedented worldwide trial in the world (Da 12:1; Je 30:7; Mt 24:21; 1 Th 1:9,10; 5:9,10). Jesus promises to save the church from this time of trouble.

which shall come upon the whole world

The words "shall come" signify both intention and necessity and therefore the certainty of what is to take place. This is a word of purpose, certainty, compulsion or necessity. The Greek word gives the idea of occurring at a point of time in the future that is subsequent to another event and closely related to it. We can translate the word "to be about to, to be inevitable, with respect to future developments – "must be, has to be." God is speaking of something inevitable in the future. God is about to do something. God is forming a design for the world.

Note that the words "whole world" indicate the scope of this tribulation. It is a worldwide tribulation.

to test those who dwell on the earth

There is a coming time of war, inflation, famine and plague. Jesus will express His righteous indignation. Fortunately, the rapture of the institutional church will precede these events. - Dr Grant C. Richison
Revelation 3:10

 

[VCO]

Dear Brother VCO. I was actually distracted for about a week by deflated footballs... That and work... I solved the mystery of the footballs so now I am back to my other favorite pastime.

My desire to "keep this going" is my desire to get out the truth on this issue. I know you are a lost cause. Even though I debate you, I am really hoping others who haven't made up their mind yet will see the folly of mainstream thought. (This mainstream thought is only 100 or so years old by the way. My views reflect the views held by 1900 years of Christian history)

I have no problem being in the minority when it comes to eschatology. I am comforted by the knowledge that through out Christian and Jewish history, the masses typically get it wrong. Most of the prophets were ignored and Israel continued in sin and were punished. They did not heed the warnings.

The facts are as I stated. The Tribulation is a period of unspeakable evil and killing of Jews and Christians. God's Wrath comes after the GT and is in response to it. The verses I provide prove the point.

Main Denominations??? Which ones? To which do you belong? Just curious.

Please don't put me on your ignore list again as that would make me sad .

I mentioned it some time ago, but I am a non-denominational, conservative (not liberal) Evangelical.

The Theology that I absolutely BELIEVE is taught by:

Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - Grace to You sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
Dr. Charles Stanley - Home
Dr. Richard Lee - First Redeemer Church | Duluth | Cumming | Alpharetta
Dr. Zola Levitt - ZLM Video: “Passover/Unleavened Bread” - some free - videos
Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/
Dr. Ben Haden - Why
Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -

Among many, many others.

It is easier to explain what I mean by mainline denominations by telling you what would exclude a church from being considered part of the mainline denominations:

Any church that denies the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity

Any church that denies the Deity of Jesus Christ

Any church that denies the entire Bible was inspired by GOD Himself

Any church that denies that Salvation is by Grace Alone through Faith and NOT by works.

Any church that denies that no books after the BIBLE were inspired by GOD.

See that is a much shorter list than mentioning all of the Beliefs that are part of our common core of Beliefs within Mainline Christianity.

Churches that I have personally attended over the YEARS that teach basically the same thing would include:

Community Churches
Bible Churches
Baptist Churches
Grace Brethren Churches
Evangelical Free Churches
Evangelical Lutheran Churches
Bible Fellowship Churches

Why so many, we moved a lot, living in small towns, and in small towns you do not have all the denominations represented.

I am not surprised that you do not remember, my mentioning what Church organization I was from in the past. You are catching up to my age, and let me warn you, the memory will get nothing but worse. So I too, must apologize, as I do not remember what denominational background you hail from, so please tell me, as I am not good at guessing.

So may I ask one more question?
"Are you prepared to face the fact that you may be wrong about having the Truth?"

If you are still interested in why we are so rock solid sure we Believe and Teach is the truth about a pretrib Rapture, actually read the commentary excerpts in my last post #2349.

 

[SolidGround]

And we believe that when he said "I will keep you from the hour of trial will come upon the WHOLE EARTH."; it certainly means we have to be somewhere other than on the earth. And we certainly believe "The hour of temptation/testing/trial and the day of Wrath ARE . . . the same."

Revelation 3:10 (ISV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept my command to endure, I will keep you from the hour of testing that is coming to the whole world to test those living on the earth.

In context, how does that prophecy apply to the Church as a whole, or how does it apply to you personally?

 

[SilverFanng]

Those left behind;
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

All believers martyered;
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes(("being the foolish virgins")), and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:


Inspite of all this,some will ammazingly believe there are believers still here after the GT.

......um.....you just proved all of my points for me.

That first passage says specifically that they "go out to meet him."

The second one says, as I stated in a previous post, that all the faithful will die.

The third passage says that they are brought out of the great tribulation meaning they were previously in it.

So basically what you have just told me is that the bible states that there will be Christians in the midst of the great tribulation and after satan and his servants wage war against all true Christians he will prevail and the Christians will be killed and THAT is when they go out to meet Christ and accompany him on the rest of his return journey to earth.

 

[SilverFanng]

careful here. the celestial bodies may of may not themselves actually be darkened.


yahshua told his disciples "the kingdom of heaven is in you",
and it was later that the enemy through the rcc abomination introduced a 'heaven' that's not scriptural at all , as if "out there" someplace.

This last part is true, and I just want to add that it is also written that we are the temples of God. Therefore there will be no third physical temple in Jerusalem. That being said, the if Christ ascended into heaven, which, according to you, isn't real, then where did he ascend to? Even ancient Israelites referred to the "third heaven". Even if it means space, where did he go?

Also I'm not sure I understand your first statement.

 

[SilverFanng]

I already showed you one.
Here is another . Not that you will read it or apply it.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Try doing a study on it. It is a common natural,REMEDY that God himself provided for his family.

Did you ever once consider that, just maybe, "escape" is a poetic, intellectual way of saying death?

 

[SolidGround]

Why is it that the Last Generation Church can cling to Rev 3:10, but not cling to any of the other prophecies of Rev 2-3?
What of Rev 2:10?
What of Rev 3:16?
Do these also apply to the same group?

If you read this with spiritual things in mind, rather than physical things such as timelines, then you will see that some are called to persevere through til the end, yet others will be spared.
Many have been spared during the past 2000 years. Why fear perseverance?

Relish the chance to be tested and proven worthy. Unless you feel you have already been proved worthy, such a chance should be sought after. Tribulation is a blessing to the Believer, not a curse.

 

[SilverFanng]

The 1st is the ac

Show me where all earth's inhabitants recieved a mark,and that false christ stood in the HP demanding worship and to be called God.

Actually the first horseman is best described as false Christianity. The "Synagogue of Satan". If you look at it like that everything lines up much more evenly making more sense.

 

[Jeff_56]

This last part is true, and I just want to add that it is also written that we are the temples of God. Therefore there will be no third physical temple in Jerusalem. That being said, the if Christ ascended into heaven, which, according to you, isn't real, then where did he ascend to? Even ancient Israelites referred to the "third heaven". Even if it means space, where did he go?

Also I'm not sure I understand your first statement.

look into Hebrew sources / (believers immersed in yahshua) / for a better understanding.... it's a lot of praying, more praying, and then more praying, every day. you may have a good understanding already, even better than mine - if so this is just a 'reminder' that's safe for us to remember.... like the apostle said it is no trouble and has benefits to keep reminding one another even of things we have been taught many times (this was part of the life they lived also, instead of going to movies or sports events, they studied Scripture, a lot, when they could, yahweh willing)

the first statement is simply like someone else pointed out (i think)... as in Joseph's dream and what it meant, the sun and the moon and the stars were his family, not celestial bodies...
whatever the meaning is, it rests with yahweh until he discloses it,
and no man can receive it(anything) unless it is granted from the Father in heaven.(not just about this,
but for instance the Hebrew meanings and mannerisms and life that's referred to in Scripture) ....
it takes a 'lifetime' of prayer and seeking and trusting yahweh Himself, in grace, faith, and union with yahshua...! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

[SilverFanng]

Dear Brother VCO. I was actually distracted for about a week by deflated footballs... That and work... I solved the mystery of the footballs so now I am back to my other favorite pastime.

My desire to "keep this going" is my desire to get out the truth on this issue. I know you are a lost cause. Even though I debate you, I am really hoping others who haven't made up their mind yet will see the folly of mainstream thought. (This mainstream thought is only 100 or so years old by the way. My views reflect the views held by 1900 years of Christian history)

I have no problem being in the minority when it comes to eschatology. I am comforted by the knowledge that through out Christian and Jewish history, the masses typically get it wrong. Most of the prophets were ignored and Israel continued in sin and were punished. They did not heed the warnings.

The facts are as I stated. The Tribulation is a period of unspeakable evil and killing of Jews and Christians. God's Wrath comes after the GT and is in response to it. The verses I provide prove the point.

Main Denominations??? Which ones? To which do you belong? Just curious.

Please don't put me on your ignore list again as that would make me sad .

I am a Christian plain and simple. I don't care about denominations so long as the truth is taught. And you are right. Personally I will gladly die so long as it is fighting for others. We are taught not to murder. Killing to save the life of another is, however, approved of in scripture. It is only if no one else is in danger that I will not raise my hand against my enemies. At least that's my plan.

 

[SilverFanng]

I've studied it exhaustively. The passage from Luke 21 that you cite refers to the Wrath of God which is reserved for those who do not know him. The "things" to be escaped refer back to verses 25-26:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken...

This is God's Wrath. God warns his people to "GET OUT" of Babylon which will be the focus of His revenge. The warning to flee (or escape) is found in Rev 18:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her (Babylon), my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

The escape is not a Rapture, it is a fleeing or leaving of the areas controlled by Babylon. If you are a child of God and have heeded His warnings and are not in the effected areas certainly you can escape the things (God's Wrath) which comes upon the "earth" and stand before His Son.

God always gives a warning, repent and turn to him before He executes judgment for God is a patient God and longsuffering not wishing any to perish. For His people, He also gives a warning and tells them to leave to avoid the punishment He is sending (See Lot, Noah, Rahab, etc)

Well said, and it occurs to me just now that spiritual beings such as angels are often referred to as heavenly bodies. Wouldn't it be something else if the great spiritual Attleboro actually came into our physical plane of existence and cause all of that distress? That's probably just the writer in me fantasizing about something that might not happen, but hey, ya never know.

 

[SolidGround]

If there is a third Temple build by human hands, then it will be a false Temple built by and for the antichrist.

These physical things have passed away, and will not be renewed. They served a purpose, but were not in the Garden. They are not part of the Restoration. The Temple is the Body of Christ, of which we are Living Stones.

Read Zechariah with Christ in mind.
He is Israel, and all in Him are in Israel ("those victorious with God", which is the meaning of Israel).
His place is Jerusalem Above.
His Body is the Temple.
He is the sacrifice.

The Millenium is not a restoration of the Temple System. It is a restoration of authority under the Lord, which restores all things back to their original purpose, through submission to the Lord.