When does the rapture occur?

SolidGround · May 23, 2015

The symbols do seem to distract the reader who is focused on physical (literal) things.
On the other hand, the symbols seem to also be a jumping point for those who want to twist the Word for personal agenda.
The literal and allegorical are not the only two options for interpretation!
The spiritual interpretation is the key.
It is not scholarly to seek it,
and it humbles the seeker, so the proud/self-assured will always reject it.
It is only by the Spirit that interpretation of Scripture can be done.
No degree can help you with it.

SilverFanng · May 23, 2015

SolidGround said:

Honestly, I look forward to the Day. I wait in eager expectation of the wicked being finally brought to justice, and the innocent being vindicated and saved from their sufferings. Who will mourn when He Comes to tread the winepress filled with the beheaders and the rapists and the thieves? Who will cry out for those who use chlorine gas on women and children, when they are gathered like twigs to be burned? Who will defend the ones who spread violence in the name of God, when He Comes to blot them out?
None but those who are guilty along with them.

To the righteous, it will be a day of joy when the Wrath finally falls.
To the wicked... cry out for mercy Today, while there is still a day called Today. When Tomorrow comes... mercy will be replaced with justice.

Honestly, I think it will be of great rejoice and of great sorrow and grief. I know that my heart will break for every not redeemed resin whom I watch die in those days.

SilverFanng · May 23, 2015

VCO said:

I mentioned it some time ago, but I am a non-denominational, conservative (not liberal) Evangelical.

The Theology that I absolutely BELIEVE is taught by:

Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - Grace to You sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
Dr. Charles Stanley - Home
Dr. Richard Lee - First Redeemer Church | Duluth | Cumming | Alpharetta
Dr. Zola Levitt - ZLM Video: “Passover/Unleavened Bread” - some free - videos
Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/
Dr. Ben Haden - Why
Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -

Among many, many others.

It is easier to explain what I mean by mainline denominations by telling you what would exclude a church from being considered part of the mainline denominations:

Any church that denies the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity

Any church that denies the Deity of Jesus Christ

Any church that denies the entire Bible was inspired by GOD Himself

Any church that denies that Salvation is by Grace Alone through Faith and NOT by works.

Any church that denies that no books after the BIBLE were inspired by GOD.

See that is a much shorter list than mentioning all of the Beliefs that are part of our common core of Beliefs within Mainline Christianity.

Churches that I have personally attended over the YEARS that teach basically the same thing would include:

Community Churches
Bible Churches
Baptist Churches
Grace Brethren Churches
Evangelical Free Churches
Evangelical Lutheran Churches
Bible Fellowship Churches

Why so many, we moved a lot, living in small towns, and in small towns you do not have all the denominations represented.

I am not surprised that you do not remember, my mentioning what Church organization I was from in the past. You are catching up to my age, and let me warn you, the memory will get nothing but worse. So I too, must apologize, as I do not remember what denominational background you hail from, so please tell me, as I am not good at guessing.

So may I ask one more question?
"Are you prepared to face the fact that you may be wrong about having the Truth?"

If you are still interested in why we are so rock solid sure we Believe and Teach is the truth about a pretrib Rapture, actually read the commentary excerpts in my last post #2349.

So you have told us what you have learned from the mouths and minds of men. What have you learned directly from the mind of God? Or do you trust men more than God? Confer with your brothers and sisters in Christ to correct you when you go astray. Don't treat them as though their doctrines can have no fault at all. They are human. I guarantee that they are wrong in some of their teachings unless they heard directly from the very mouth of God as Moses did.

SolidGround · May 23, 2015

SilverFanng said:

I hope to some day have such compassion,
but after seeing two children under ten, clinging to life in a hospital, limp and lifeless within an hour, all from chlorine gas... I cannot but wait for the day of their vindication. I would go out and seek vengeance for them myself, if not for the words of Christ.
It is one thing to forgive others for harm done to me and mine... It is another to forgive such audacious atrocities... done in the name of God no less.

Jeff_56 · May 23, 2015

SolidGround said:

what does TORAH / SCRIPTURE say of the heresy*(rome) that has martyred millions for their faith ? >>>
New Living Translation
Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters--their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred--had joined them.

-----------------------
Revelation 6:9-11Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness. 10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
-----------------------------
*heresy / martyrs slain by through the ages

Revelation 6:9 Commentaries: When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I ...

biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/6-9.htm‎

The blood of the victims was in the temple service poured out at the foot of the
altar. ... The Romans themselves had already avenged the martyrs slain by the
Jews ..... become martyrs (through Papal Rome) are the Waldenses of the year
1208 ...
Revelation 17:6 Parallel Commentaries - Bible Hub

biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/17-6.htm‎

She is drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs —
Or ... It is very true, as it was hinted before, that if Rome pagan hath slain her ...
with all kinds of deceit of unrighteousness, papal Rome has obtained and ...
Compare the notes on Revelation 2:13; Revelation 6:9; Revelation 11:5,
Revelation 11:7.

GaryA · May 23, 2015

VCO said:

Which means that 'we' ARE wrong...

The 'Wrath of God' is - not temptation, not test, not trial :

Revelation 14:

[SUP]10[/SUP] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 16:

[SUP]19[/SUP] And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 19:

[SUP]15[/SUP] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Do you understand the full significance of the phrase 'without mixture'...???

It means that it will be PURE.

Think about it...

Not to mention -- Revelation 3:10 does not apply to us. It applies to those of the 'church of Philadelphia' era.

Here are the names of the churches mentioned in Revelation 2-3, in order:

~ Ephesus
~ Smyrna
~ Pergamos
~ Thyatira
~ Sardis
~ Philadelphia
~ Laodiceans

In addition to the [ actual original ] church in John's day, ( I believe that ) each one of these represent an 'era' of history.

( Surely, we are now in the 'Laodicean' era... )

All of those of the 'Philadelphia' era will have died by the time of "the hour of temptation" --- this is their 'escape'.

Called4Christ · May 23, 2015

Just a general question for those who have been studying this: How long did it take you to come to these understandings?

I've been reading the teachings of others for a few weeks, but like I mentioned before--I know I need to go to the source (bible). So last night I studied Daniel 8-12 diligently (I think I started around 10:30, and I know I didn't get to bed until around 3am) and looked at prophecy concerning the end time in Isaiah. Before I began my study, I prayed for understanding. During it--I still prayed concerning my continued lack of understanding, and communicated that I was frustrated because I really wanted to understand what I was reading.

I'm only getting more confused the more I read. Not less.

It's not because what I'm reading conflicts with something I read from man---I mean just trying to come to my own understanding of what the texts mean.

GaryA · May 23, 2015

GaryA said:

If we are still in the 'Philadelphia' era, then this still applies...

GaryA · May 23, 2015

Called4Christ said:

The most difficult thing to do -- yet, you must learn to do it -- is to study the Bible without allowing 'opinions of men' to "sway" your thinking. You must learn how to [ temporarily ] "forget everything you know" ( "suspend it", and "isolate yourself from it" ) before / when you study a passage of scripture -- so that you have the best opportunity to 'receive' the [ unabridged ] Truth ( which can only be by the Holy Spirit ) from your study.

Before you even try to understand what it means - make sure you understand what it actually says.

Be patient. It takes time. You may only obtain "a little bit more" each time you "set aside" to study. The Bible is very deep. The "levels of depth" are without number. There is always more...

Called4Christ · May 23, 2015

Thanks

)

GaryA · May 23, 2015

Called4Christ said:

Just a general question for those who have been studying this: How long did it take you to come to these understandings?

I've been reading the teachings of others for a few weeks, but like I mentioned before--I know I need to go to the source (bible). So last night I studied Daniel 8-12 diligently (I think I started around 10:30, and I know I didn't get to bed until around 3am) and looked at prophecy concerning the end time in Isaiah. Before I began my study, I prayed for understanding. During it--I still prayed concerning my continued lack of understanding, and communicated that I was frustrated because I really wanted to understand what I was reading.

I'm only getting more confused the more I read. Not less.

It's not because what I'm reading conflicts with something I read from man---I mean just trying to come to my own understanding of what the texts mean.

Please read this post:

correctly studying the book of revelation

PlainWord · May 23, 2015

VCO said:

We have a very similar background then. I attended Community Churches, Baptist Churches, a lot of Calvary Chapel Churches. My dad was a pastor and member of the IFCA. Today my wife and I attend a non denominational former Baptist church. My wife is a former missionary who helped form an orphanage in India for 500 girls. She was descipled by Pastor Richard Wurmbrand who was imprisoned 14 years in Romania for his faith in Christ. His wife, Sabina, was imprisoned for three years. In the 1960s, Richard, Sabina, and their son, Mihai, were ransomed out of Romania and came to the United States. Through their travels, the Wurmbrands spread the message of the atrocities that Christians face in restricted nations, while establishing a network of offices dedicated to assisting the persecuted church. Sadly Pastor Wurmbrand passed before I got to meet him.

I agree with all of the doctrines you mentioned above. Our main difference is of course eschatology. As I think I told you before, I used to believe exactly as you and all the authors you cite. But my eyes were opened and now I see clearly. Not everyone has eyes to see, I accept that. I am 100% confident that my view on the timing of the Rapture is correct. Remember I once held you view so I understand each side's points completely. Your side is complete conjecture and wishful thinking. I wish it were true, but it isn't. We are promised Tribulation, not an escape from it.

The biggest reason I reject this notion of a pre-trib, sky return, fly-off to heaven doctrine is no such stand alone teaching is found. It requires piecing the doctrine together from multiple places while ignoring teachings that are clear (such as last day teaching for the resurrection, Heb 9:27-28, etc). The Pre-Trib view is filled with holes and conflicts with other clear teachings. I do not find the Pre-Trib return discussed at all in the Olivet Discourse, which is where it should be. I don't find it in Revelation which was written as a comfort to the persecuted churches, which is where it should be as it would be a HUGE encouragement, if true.

Without a clear teaching of a Pre-Trib, Fly Away return being taught as a stand alone lesson, I cannot believe it. It is a tradition of man.

PlainWord · May 23, 2015

SilverFanng said:

I have for awhile now, known that I will die for my faith. I pray that I have the strength to do so with honor and dignity when the time comes and that I will not chose life over faithfulness to Christ. Remember Jesus taught that once they take your life, there is nothing more they can do to you.

If the "Beast's" soldiers come down my street, I will put up a fight. But if captured and forced to swear allegiance to Islam (take the Mark), that's where I need to draw the line and will draw the line Lord willing.

PlainWord · May 23, 2015

SolidGround said:

You possess spiritual insight that many do not have. I too find no concrete evidence of a 3rd physical temple being built other than the desire of some (Temple Institute) to build it. I do think the Dome of the Rock is an Abomination, if not THE Abomination spoken of by Daniel. It must be destroyed. But a third temple built in its place, I do not see conclusively. It could happen, but like you, I see the final temple being spiritual.

The church is attacked from within. There are wolves in sheep's clothing. The two witnesses (Church and Israel) are "killed" in the streets of that spiritual place called Sodom and Egypt. Sodom represents Homosexuality and Egypt represents Idol worship which is Islam. These two evil forces are working at opposite ends to destroy God's witnesses to the earth. Ireland just adopted Gay Marriage. 37 states in this country have done the same and the US Supreme Court is likely going to make it mandatory in the other 13. God's Laws and Commandments are being violated everywhere.

I may not have all the symbolism correct but I am pretty confident we will not see 2 men breathing fire out of their mouths on the Temple Mount killing their enemies who are then killed by a literal beast that comes up from the ground

.

SilverFanng · May 23, 2015

Called4Christ said:

Just a general question for those who have been studying this: How long did it take you to come to these understandings?

I've been reading the teachings of others for a few weeks, but like I mentioned before--I know I need to go to the source (bible). So last night I studied Daniel 8-12 diligently (I think I started around 10:30, and I know I didn't get to bed until around 3am) and looked at prophecy concerning the end time in Isaiah. Before I began my study, I prayed for understanding. During it--I still prayed concerning my continued lack of understanding, and communicated that I was frustrated because I really wanted to understand what I was reading.

I'm only getting more confused the more I read. Not less.

It's not because what I'm reading conflicts with something I read from man---I mean just trying to come to my own understanding of what the texts mean.

I'm going to be 26 this year. I have been studying this for somewhere between 10-12 years. It is always fascinating to study the mind of God. Sometimes He will wait for months before revealing a secret to us.

Pumicestone · May 23, 2015

So many Christians - so many different opinions. And no doubt all sincere and well thought-out.

What a pity the "message' could not have been made crystal clear and unambiguous.

PlainWord · May 23, 2015

SolidGround said:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

This battle has really ramped up in the past 20 years or so. I see it everywhere. The spiritual will manifest itself in the physical realm as well but the battle is fought in the spiritual world. It is here that the battle is currently being lost. The saints are under attack and losing ground. We are told this will happen by Daniel and by John in Revelation and indeed it is happening now. But we can all take comfort in the outcome. As Christ promised:

John 16:33:
"...These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

We are PROMISED tribulation (small t). It is a Biblical truth which Christ HIMSELF teaches. The use of the word "Tribulation" has always dealt with God's people suffering at the hands of the wicked. Why then would the Tribulation (capital T) not involve God's People? It really baffles me how so many otherwise good and solid Christians can get caught up in this false fly away doctrine.

Avoiding tests or escaping God's wrath does not equate to being snatched off the planet and transported to heaven for 7 years to avoid the Great Tribulation. Such notions make good movies but like Hollywood, it isn't reality.

PlainWord · May 23, 2015

Pumicestone said:

But it was. The Second Coming (emphases added on Second as it is not the third coming, or ground coming) is clearly taught. Since the Pre-Trib, sky only, return is not taught, it must not be real.

Heb 9:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Men all die once!! Then the judgment. Christ appears a second time, not a second and third time!! The only exception to this rule is on the very last day of earth when God Himself returns as Paul teaches in 1 Thes 4:14.

GaryA · May 23, 2015

PlainWord said:

"Don't worry --- God will take care of that..."

PlainWord said:

I have not seen any evidence of 'Church' or 'Israel' doing anything like this - even symbolically or allegorically - past, present, or future...

GaryA · May 23, 2015

Called4Christ said:

GaryA said:

You will find that other men's opinions are notorious for preventing people from seeing what the Bible actually says very clearly...

You must "try the spirits" of every man's opinion ( including mine ) to see if it is in agreement with scripture.

When does the rapture occur?

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