When does the rapture occur?

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popeye

Guest
#2,381
#2,381
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now hold on Jesus.You are saying that we are removed FIRST,and then Judgement?
 
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GaryA

Guest
#2,382
#2,382
Unfortunately, most Christians are too lazy to do their own detailed in-depth studying; instead, they "ride the coattails" of others who have become well-known and have "expounded" widely accepted opinions. And - when these widely accepted opinions are wrong - error is propagated "on a scale of major proportions"... :(
 
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popeye

Guest
#2,383
#2,383
32 Remember Lot's wife.

Ok,lets do.

Here is this group leaving just prior to judgement.(pretrib rapture maybe?)

Here is one who is not looking to the future and place where God is taking his pple,but is wanting to go back and experience ,and be in God's judgement. (postribbers....yikes!)
 
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GaryA

Guest
#2,384
#2,384
I really wish you guys would [ learn to ] make yourselves take the time to add Book and Chapter to your scripture insertions... :rolleyes: :p :(
 
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popeye

Guest
#2,385
#2,385
SilverFanng said:
So you have told us what you have learned from the mouths and minds of men. What have you learned directly from the mind of God? Or do you trust men more than God? Confer with your brothers and sisters in Christ to correct you when you go astray. Don't treat them as though their doctrines can have no fault at all. They are human. I guarantee that they are wrong in some of their teachings unless they heard directly from the very mouth of God as Moses did.
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ever so slowly you reveal your cards. Postrib
 
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popeye

Guest
#2,386
#2,386
GaryA said:
I really wish you guys would [ learn to ] make yourselves take the time to add Book and Chapter to your scripture insertions... :rolleyes: :p :(
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luke

"use the force luke" .......lol
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
#2,387
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#2,387
GaryA said:
Which means that 'we' ARE wrong... ;)

The 'Wrath of God' is - not temptation, not test, not trial :


Revelation 14:

[SUP]10[/SUP] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 16:

[SUP]19[/SUP] And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 19:

[SUP]15[/SUP] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Do you understand the full significance of the phrase 'without mixture'...???

It means that it will be PURE.

Think about it...


Not to mention -- Revelation 3:10 does not apply to us. It applies to those of the 'church of Philadelphia' era.

Here are the names of the churches mentioned in Revelation 2-3, in order:

~ Ephesus
~ Smyrna
~ Pergamos
~ Thyatira
~ Sardis
~ Philadelphia
~ Laodiceans

In addition to the [ actual original ] church in John's day, ( I believe that ) each one of these represent an 'era' of history.

( Surely, we are now in the 'Laodicean' era... )

All of those of the 'Philadelphia' era will have died by the time of "the hour of temptation" --- this is their 'escape'.

:)
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Gary,

You hold a common belief that the 7 churches represent seven eras of church history. Why do you think that?

Have you considered that the 7 churches were just 7 churches that John knew personally. Many of them were enduring hardship and some needed correcting. All needed encouragement. I find nothing to suggest that the purpose of writing to them had some huge significance to churches 2000 years later although lessons certain apply. John was sharing in their suffering and gave them comfort.

Rather than representing different church eras, have you considered that the spirits of all 7 churches are still present in the world today? If not, why not?
 
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popeye

Guest
#2,388
#2,388
I especially loved the part about Revelation being written to the church. Revelation is both a comfort to the persecuted church and it's a warning of what is coming to the church in the latter days. Several churches have lost their way and have forsaken the commandments they were ordered to keep. The faithful will be rewarded. But none get "raptured" before the Tribulation. The tribulation is aimed at the church (and sadly Israel) so the church has to be here for it.
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Uh,maybe you did not see this?

3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

(Your analysis is so weak PW)

Or this?:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.



This is the word of God.
 
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GaryA

Guest
#2,389
#2,389
popeye said:
32 Remember Lot's wife.

Ok,lets do.

Here is this group leaving just prior to judgement.(pretrib rapture maybe?)

Here is one who is not looking to the future and place where God is taking his pple,but is wanting to go back and experience ,and be in God's judgement. (postribbers....yikes!)
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It could be well said that they were leaving of their own will / ability / effort / action - based on a commandment of God - rather than being "taken" suddenly without them even knowing it was about to happen... :rolleyes:

It is very important to not 'extrapolate' opinions about what something could possibly mean ( hoping that it will "match" something you wish to believe ) while at the same time ignoring the clear meaning of simple phrases like "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"...

:)
 
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popeye

Guest
#2,390
#2,390
GaryA said:
It could be well said that they were leaving of their own will / ability / effort / action - based on a commandment of God - rather than being "taken" suddenly without them even knowing it was about to happen... :rolleyes:

It is very important to not 'extrapolate' opinions about what something could possibly mean ( hoping that it will "match" something you wish to believe ) while at the same time ignoring the clear meaning of simple phrases like "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"...

:)
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amen

that is why Jesus used simplicity.

So simple.
Abe fetches lot.
Jesus fetches bride.

So,so simple.
What was your question again?
 
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Jeff_56

Banned
#2,391
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
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#2,391
GaryA said:
..... when these widely accepted opinions are wrong - error is propagated "on a scale of major proportions"..
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that's true, way over 2 billion completely deceived and growing ! (errors perpetuating since before 300a.d. , thru rcc heresy)
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
#2,392
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#2,392
GaryA said:
"Don't worry --- God will take care of that..." :D



I have not seen any evidence of 'Church' or 'Israel' doing anything like this - even symbolically or allegorically - past, present, or future... ;)

:)
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Let me show you the symbolism then.

Jeremiah 5:14

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

See also Psalm 18. You've heard the saying, "the pen is mightier than the sword" or "the tongue is sharper than the sword?" Same concept.
Thus, the words of the Lord consume their enemies.
 
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GaryA

Guest
#2,393
#2,393
PlainWord said:
Gary,

You hold a common belief that the 7 churches represent seven eras of church history. Why do you think that?

Have you considered that the 7 churches were just 7 churches that John knew personally. Many of them were enduring hardship and some needed correcting. All needed encouragement. I find nothing to suggest that the purpose of writing to them had some huge significance to churches 2000 years later although lessons certain apply. John was sharing in their suffering and gave them comfort.

Rather than representing different church eras, have you considered that the spirits of all 7 churches are still present in the world today? If not, why not?
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Yes - this is another aspect of it that I have also considered.

:)
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
#2,394
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#2,394
GaryA said:
Yes - this is another aspect of it that I have also considered.

:)
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I've been on three sides of this issue in the past - surprised?? LOL. I now see the letters to the churches as mostly meant to comfort and encourage them during their time with meaning for all us. I believe the spirits of all 7 are present in the churches today but not in the corporate sense. But who knows?
 
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SilverFanng

Guest
#2,395
#2,395
Pumicestone said:
So many Christians - so many different opinions. And no doubt all sincere and well thought-out.

What a pity the "message' could not have been made crystal clear and unambiguous.
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Be that as it may, I believe there is only one truth and it is this pursuit of truth that brings us closer to God. Thus, why he made it ambiguous in the first place.
 
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GaryA

Guest
#2,396
#2,396
popeye said:
amen

that is why Jesus used simplicity.

So simple.
Abe fetches lot.
Jesus fetches bride.

So,so simple.
What was your question again?
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Even folks who believe in a post-tribulation rapture believe that Jesus fetches His bride. Try again.

( I understand what you are saying - I just don't think it "automatically applies"... )

How does "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" fit into your eschatological views?

Please list for me / us "any and all" End Times Scenario 'events' that you believe occur after the 'tribulation' referred to in Matthew 24:29.

:)
 
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popeye

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#2,397
#2,397
while at the same time ignoring the clear meaningof simple phrases like "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"...
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Ironic that you yourself omitted/ignored WHERE,'AFTER THE TRIB" THE ELECT are. In heaven? Does it say "IN HEAVEN"

HMMM,how'd they get there? Previous rapture maybe? pretrib rapture?
 
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SilverFanng

Guest
#2,398
#2,398
popeye said:
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now hold on Jesus.You are saying that we are removed FIRST,and then Judgement?
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Ah yes, the quintessential cornerstone verse of the pretribulationalist. Odd, considering no one can agree upon a single meaning of this passage. I, for example, believe Christ doesn't mean they will be supernaturally taken but that it is a reference to the amount of death ahead. Taken simply means killed/died. Regardless of which one is the sinner and which one the redeemed.
 
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GaryA

Guest
#2,399
#2,399
popeye said:
Ironic that you yourself omitted/ignored WHERE,'AFTER THE TRIB" THE ELECT are. In heaven? Does it say "IN HEAVEN"

HMMM,how'd they get there? Previous rapture maybe? pretrib rapture?
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Show me verses. Please include Book and Chapter. :p

What ( Where ) are you talking about?

:)
 
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popeye

Guest
#2,400
#2,400
Originally Posted by popeye

amen

that is why Jesus used simplicity.

So simple.
Abe fetches lot.
Jesus fetches bride.

So,so simple.
What was your question again?
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Even folks who believe in a post-tribulation rapture believe that Jesus fetches His bride. Try again.
Click to expand...


Try?
Why not just read it?

Does this exist in your mind?:
"Abraham watched as sodom burned,knowing lot would be protected,then AFTER THE TRIBULATION ,Abe went in to the city and brought Lot and family out"

Are you somehow not able to read the simple,simple account?
 
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