John 15: The Vine, the branches, fruit-bearing, and the Greek word 'airo'

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V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#21
#21
weakness said:
Thayer's Greek lexicon translates "takes away"in John 15 :2 the following......To rend away, cut off. More generally, To take off or away that which is attached to anything. That was alot of writing, for a mistranslated word in regards to John 15:2. I've never seen Grape vines lying in the mud....I think the owner need a new foreman.
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It is quite likely you've never been to a vineyard, so it's doubtful you'd have seen grapevines lying in the mud. We have 200 vineyards in Missouri. The vinedresser of each will be out there with a brush and bucket of soapy water after every storm, doing just what as was said.

Also, Thayer's does not define airo (airo) with the use of the words "cut off" nor does it prefer the "takes away" translation, so you've cherry-picked part of your definition and deliberately misled about the rest. I got the definition I used in the OP from Thayer's so how do you explain you supposedly looked at the same definition and came up with words that aren't there?

Just in case you need further proof:

BibleStudyTools.com: Airo


The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5"] Strong's Number: 142[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, bgcolor: #ECD8A5, align: center"] Browse Lexicon[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Word Origin[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]airo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]a primary root[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Airo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:185,28[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]ah'-ee-ro [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Verb [/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]
  1. to raise up, elevate, lift up
    1. to raise from the ground, take up: stones
    2. to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
    3. to draw up: a fish
  2. to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
  3. to bear away what has been raised, carry off
    1. to move from its place
    2. to take off or away what is attached to anything
    3. to remove
    4. to carry off, carry away with one
    5. to appropriate what is taken
    6. to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
    7. to take and apply to any use
    8. to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
    9. cause to cease
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[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"] NAS Word Usage - Total: 102[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]away 5, bear 4, carried 1, carry 1, get 4, hoisted 1, keep 1, lifted 2, pick 9, picked 11, pulls away 2, put away 1, raised 2, remove 1, removed 3, suspense* 1, take 13, take away 5, take...away 4, taken 3, taken...away 1, taken away 12, takes away 7, taking 1, took 2, took...away 1, took away 3, weighed anchor 1[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
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[TD="width: 170"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"] NAS Verse Count [/TD]
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[TD]Matthew[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mark[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Luke[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD]Acts[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Corinthians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ephesians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Colossians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 John[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Revelation[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][HR][/HR][/TD]
[TD][HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD]Total[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]97[/TD]
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[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.
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J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#22
#22
Viligant_Warrior said:
It is quite likely you've never been to a vineyard, so it's doubtful you'd have seen grapevines lying in the mud. We have 200 vineyards in Missouri. The vinedresser of each will be out there with a brush and bucket of soapy water after every storm, doing just what as was said.

Also, Thayer's does not define airo (airo) with the use of the words "cut off" nor does it prefer the "takes away" translation, so you've cherry-picked part of your definition and deliberately misled about the rest. I got the definition I used in the OP from Thayer's so how do you explain you supposedly looked at the same definition and came up with words that aren't there?
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John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

This is a fascinating take on the matter, though harmony of scripture does indicate dead wood is cut off, as in goes to the fire, the unfaithful servant goes to outer darkness, virgins with no oil, Lord Lord, depart from Me, Laodiceans, etc. There is the professor, who is not a possessor of the Holy Spirit, which go the way of Judas, those which appear to be in the vine, but are not, like the tares, which look like wheat. Can one have the Holy Spirit, without any fruit of the Spirit? "Beareth not fruit" seems to also imply a very bad prognosis for that branch, likened to dead wood. I tend to see Angela's heavily pruned vines perhaps a picture of the reality? But it is an interesting take, only we must neither conclude definition number 3 is to be disregarded. Just trying to be vigilant there, though only as a man of peace... on a good day...

rolling-on-the-floor-laughing-smiley-emoticon.gif​
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#23
#23
Angela53510 said:
Just a couple of points to add to the awesome exegesis of the OP.

First, meno in Greek, translated as "abide" can also be translated as "I live" or "I remain." Thus, as we abide in Christ, we also live and remain in him.

Second is something a bit more from the word of vineyards. My new home is surrounded by vineyards, and it has been quite an amazing experience watching them grow. They get pruned back to almost little stubs, about a foot and half out of the ground. Some of the wood is black on the older ones, but even the younger ones look so severely pruned that they will never grow. (Think of what this means spiritually - we may not look changed on the outside, we may even look dead, but God is in control!)

So the fruit trees were blooming, the flowering shrubs and trees were blooming and the leaves were out on pretty much everything. But all those many vineyards just had these dead looking wood, clinging to the trellises for support.

So a couple of weeks ago, they finally started pushing out some leaves and vines. I was so relieved to know the vineyard industry wasn't going to go under locally. Yesterday, a trip down the hill revealed vines that had grown feet!

So what does this say to me spiritually? As a grafted in vine, I really do have to wait on the vinedresser to prune me. And sometimes that pruning is severe! And I have to be patient. Even when all the other showy plants are blooming, I am a work waiting and in progress.

But once I start to grow - watch out! God is truly in control of this whole process. We live/remain/abide in him, and the time will come, after pruning, waiting and growing that we shall truly bear fruit. And that vinedresser or vineyard worker, the great I AM is the one who is watching and waiting, doing the best for our spiritual growth. He is never going to leave or forsake us, but knows what is best for us, and how we will bear the best fruit!
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That is such a good analogy, from reality! The same with apple trees. You want to see some miserable fruit and crop failure, just leave them be. It's even counter intuitive, the extent of pruning required, but this is the only way to get good fruit, God's parable being told, in very nature.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Psalms 19:1-2 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
 
E

Elin

Banned
#24
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#24
JesusIsAll said:
That is such a good analogy, from reality! The same with apple trees. You want to see some miserable fruit and crop failure, just leave them be.It's even counter intuitive, the extent of pruning required, but this is the only way to get good fruit, God's parable being told, in very nature.
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Very nature built on the pattern of the spiritual order.

Which is why it gives God such glory. . .the material expressing the immaterial.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
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Psalms 19:1-2 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
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Ps 19:1-2, one of my favorites. . .
 
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A

atwhatcost

Guest
#25
#25
Viligant_Warrior said:
It is quite likely you've never been to a vineyard, so it's doubtful you'd have seen grapevines lying in the mud. We have 200 vineyards in Missouri. The vinedresser of each will be out there with a brush and bucket of soapy water after every storm, doing just what as was said.

Also, Thayer's does not define airo (airo) with the use of the words "cut off" nor does it prefer the "takes away" translation, so you've cherry-picked part of your definition and deliberately misled about the rest. I got the definition I used in the OP from Thayer's so how do you explain you supposedly looked at the same definition and came up with words that aren't there?

Just in case you need further proof:
Click to expand...
And I thought Strong's Concordance was enough. Looks like I need Thayer's now.

Hey, VW? Are you a car now? lol
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#26
#26
atwhatcost said:
And I thought Strong's Concordance was enough. Looks like I need Thayer's now.

Hey, VW? Are you a car now? lol
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I use Strong's, and it's the same in Strong's. As to this inexplicable car joke, it's nice somebody else is holding themselves out to "not get." But don't you be pickin' on Warrior, ya' hear?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#27
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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#27
Elin said:
Very nature built on the pattern of the spiritual order.

Which is why it gives God such glory. . .the material expressing the immaterial.


Ps 19:1-2, one of my favorites. . .
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Day unto day and night unto night....no language where their voice is not heard.....amen to that!
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#28
#28
dcontroversal said:
Day unto day and night unto night....no language where their voice is not heard.....amen to that!
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That's really poetic, "no language where their voice is not heard." Cool, and amen to that!
 
E

Elin

Banned
#29
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#29
JesusIsAll said:
dcontroversal said:
Day unto day and night unto night....no language where their voice is not heard.....amen to that!
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That's really poetic, "no language where their voice is not heard." Cool, and amen to that!
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Calls to mind Ro 1:19. . .
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#30
Jul 31, 2013
38,128
13,681
113
#30
JesusIsAll said:
That's really poetic, "no language where their voice is not heard." Cool, and amen to that!
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that would be Psalm 19:3 in the KJV :)

There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.
​

in hand with:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,
even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
(Romans 1:20)
​

 
G

gotime

Senior Member
#32
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#32
Great post from the OP. well done.

Jesus does allude to the fact that one can cease to abide or be united with Him by the words:

Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

If means there is a condition. If you abide/remain in unity with me. IF the branch stays in the vine etc which you mentioned.

what is the condition? that we remain/abide in Jesus and His word is in us. and again Jesus says:

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If we keep his commandments we will remain in his love thus remaining in Him. this is the condition of salvation we must remain in Him and thus keep his commandments.

This is clear in the chapter before in which Jesus explained that to be united/ remain in Him we need the Holy Spirit and in order to have the Holy Spirit we will love and keep His commandments.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

This is also seen in the 15 chapter where Jesus says this:

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you.

So clearly to remain in Jesus is to keep his words/commandments.

Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

If we do not keep his words/commandments then we will fail to remain in Him Thus the reason Jesus counsels us to remain in Him by keeping his commandments which is to abide in His love.
 
G

gotime

Senior Member
#33
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
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48
#33
What does Jesus command? Repent and believe the good news.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#34
#34
gotime said:
What does Jesus command? Repent and believe the good news.
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Amen, GoTime.

John 6, NASB
47 "Truly, Truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."​
 
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