Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[mailmandan]

The gospel message is not just the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is a watered down version of the gospel that some take and preach, but leave out the rest of the commands that the Lord gave in order to receive salvation through Him.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scripture. That is not watered down. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save. No supplements needed.

People want to focus to much on what Paul said in the likes of Ephesians 2:9 of the not by works.

So we should just ignore Ephesians 2:8,9?

What people don't do is take and realize the difference in God's grace and faith in Christ, for the bible says saved by His grace. Which is sending the Lord to die for us on the cross, this is what not by works as we did nothing to deserve the Lord coming in the flesh to do this.

It also means that we don't deserve salvation. It is not of ourselves; it is the gift of God.

From here the Lord clearly tells us what it means to believe in Him, and nowhere does He say only believe in His death, burial, and resurrection alone.

What else did the Lord mention in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11:25,26 in regards to receiving eternal life? What else did Paul mention in Romans 1:16? Adding works to the gospel is watering down the gospel.

Jesus says we have to do the will of God in our life, forgive others, confess Him as Lord, repent of our sins, and do good to others. This is all part of what it means to believing in Him!!!

To believe in Him means we are trusting exclusively in Jesus for salvation. We repent "change our mind" when we choose to believe in Him. We confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead TOGETHER (Romans 10:8-10). It's not believe today then finally confess next week and are finally saved next week. Forgiving others and doing good to others is part of practicing righteousness, which is what those who are born of God do (1 John 3:9,10).

We can not separate our walk in the faith with our belief in the faith unto salvation, as they go hand and hand.

We cannot confuse our faith with our actions that are produced out of faith/works. Our walk in the faith is the by product of having been saved through faith.

To go and try to eliminate one from the equation means you initially are saying a person can live however they want and still be saved.

I'm not saying that and neither is John (1 John 2:3-4; 3:7-10).

The bible says to the contrary of that as it says and shows how our walk has to match our belief, if our walk does not match how the bible says we are to walk it is clear cut on that it says they are not saved.

Well there you go. We don't want to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.

Refusing to obey the gospel means you refuse to obey anything the Lord said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

It means you refuse to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Not obeying anything the Lord said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John would demonstrate that you are not saved.

You can not say you have eternal life, and hate others, be unforgiving, not confess your sins, and be unhelpful, or ungiving............

People can SAY all they want they have eternal life, but what did John say about hating your brother in 1 John 3:10? They are not of God. Eternal life is in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:11-13). Everything you just described characterizes unbelievers.

 

[SeaBass]

What work do believers accomplish when they choose to believe in Christ for salvation? They choose to trust in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). Those who truly believe have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe in Christ for salvation. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8) so confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. That is not salvation by works. Those who believe in Him receive the remission of sins BEFORE water baptism. Repentance unto life/believes in Him unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation precedes water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Romans 10:8-10).

So you are saying that one cannot be saved until they accomplish your 4 step check list of steps in that distorted order and for the wrong reasons? The saved believer has already repented and confessed and is already saved BEFORE getting water baptized. You still don't understand what it truly means to BELIEVE the gospel or else you would understand the truth.

Its not my "4 step check list" but Christ's.

Again, you are searching for a way to get a person saved without that person having to do the works of belief repentance confession and submitting to baptism. Or else you will deny these things are works, but they surely are.

You try to claim confession and belief are not two separate steps but they are, they are not the same thing.

Jn 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:"

Many believed but did not confess so the two cannot be just one step.

James says the devils believe, but they do not confess either nor repent nor be baptized for their belief only is dead being void of repentance confession and baptism.

 

[mailmandan]

I never said everything is a work but belief repentance confession and submitting to baptism are works, things done and not things one just sits down and thinks about and nothing more.

Did Paul say saved through works or saved through faith, not works?

 

[SeaBass]

If being a Christian is easy all the time than you would believe that salvation could be achieved without works. But that isn't the case. Faith without work is dead isn't it?

Yes, it is dead and remains dead until acted upon. You can have faith only hungry people will be fed but not until you act upon that faith by working to feed them they will not be fed and your faith only is dead.

God commanded Noah to build an ark to the saving of his house, Heb 11:7. Instead of obeying God, what if Noah just had "faith only" that God would save his house while he just sat and did nothing. Where would his faith only gotten him?

Lev 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood:"

Likewise, the life of faith is in the works. As the flesh is dead without the blood so faith is dead without the works.

 

[SeaBass]

Did Paul say saved through works or saved through faith, not works?

Both,

Faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies Rom 3:28
obey from the heart>>>>>>>>>freed from sin(justified) Rom 6:16-18.

Since there is just ONE way to be saved/justified, no alternatives, then faith must include obeying from the heart.


====================================

My simple question to you asked earlier that I did not see simple 'yes' or 'no' answer:

Simple question I have asked many times before: can one become a Christ and not do good works yet be save anyway?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

 

[know1]

Above you said (my emp) "We are saved by faith in Christ alone, not in the work of repentance, confession, or in baptism."

You first ruled out the work of confession but then say "Confessing...is the only work of faith for salvation".
COnfession is necessary but not confession alone.

That is because I was referring to one kind of confession above and another in this one.
The first kind of confession I said was not necessary for salvation was of their confession of sins and that they repent of them.
The kind of confession that I said was necessary for salvation is the kind that lines up with your faith in the work of Christ on the cross.

Repenting does not cleanse sins, repentance is making a change in turning from doing unrighteousness to doing righteousness.

It depends on to whom you are talking about. Whether they be born again or not.
If the repentance of one born is confessed, God says they will be cleansed.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
But for the unbelieving soul, their repentance it to first go from doubt to believing in Christ, and from not needing a savior to go to heaven, to knowing that one is needed and that Christ is that savior.

Baptism IS where sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ, Acts 2:38. In Mk 1:16 Jesus made baptism of EQUAL importance and necessity to salvation as believing.

Baptism, as far as I know, is symbolic of what took place in the spirit world, but not necessary for salvation.
What you are trying to tell me is that what Paul wrote in Romans 10 is not complete, or that it's a partial truth, when he said, if I do such and such, I SHALL BE SAVED. If that is not the whole truth for one to receive salvation, then he and God lied when they said that we shall be saved.
If I have met the conditions listed, then God is obligated to do what He said He will do.
If He didn't, then He would be a liar and a hypocrite, because He told us to do what we vowed. Therefore, God has to do what He said.
And sense God is neither a liar nor a hypocrite, I can take Him at His word, and He will do just what He said, without all the other things you listed.

 

[kennethcadwell]

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scripture. That is not watered down. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save. No supplements needed.

So we should just ignore Ephesians 2:8,9?

It also means that we don't deserve salvation. It is not of ourselves; it is the gift of God.

What else did the Lord mention in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11:25,26 in regards to receiving eternal life? What else did Paul mention in Romans 1:16? Adding works to the gospel is watering down the gospel.

To believe in Him means we are trusting exclusively in Jesus for salvation. We repent "change our mind" when we choose to believe in Him. We confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead TOGETHER (Romans 10:8-10). It's not believe today then finally confess next week and are finally saved next week. Forgiving others and doing good to others is part of practicing righteousness, which is what those who are born of God do (1 John 3:9,10).

We cannot confuse our faith with our actions that are produced out of faith/works. Our walk in the faith is the by product of having been saved through faith.

I'm not saying that and neither is John (1 John 2:3-4; 3:7-10).

Well there you go. We don't want to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.

It means you refuse to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Not obeying anything the Lord said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John would demonstrate that you are not saved.

People can SAY all they want they have eternal life, but what did John say about hating your brother in 1 John 3:10? They are not of God. Eternal life is in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:11-13). Everything you just described characterizes unbelievers.

But then once again you quote the first 4 verses in 1 Corinthians 15 and do not read or give mention to the rest of what Paul said. For he says later in the chapter and even in verse 58 that we are to remain steadfast, immovable, and always abounding (doing) the work of the Lord in our lives.

For our faith in Jesus is an active faith that we are to labor in everyday as Paul says.


Not of ourselves means we do nothing of ourselves to earn salvation.
However doing as the Lord commanded is not doing works of ourselves, but doing as commanded to do by the Lord unto salvation. If you want to continue and say just believe alone, but refrain from telling others what that belief entails then you will always give a false message.

A person can claim all they want that they believe in the Lord, His death, burial, and resurrection.
But if they continue to walk in darkness, which means to continue to willfully/deliberately sin then they truly do not know God, not are they saved even though they profess that. For the bible even says there will be those who profess to know God but in works they will deny Him (Titus 1:16).

Paul is making another statement there that our walk must match our faith in Christ.

Your last statement here about 1 John 3:10 goes exactly with what I have been saying about your walk/actions must go hand in hand with your faith in Christ. You have debated against me on this topic, yet you here are saying exactly what I have said. That you can not separate the walk in the faith with the belief in the faith, as this is what James is showing by faith without works is dead.
For James is quoting in his own words the same thing Jesus said about if you believe in Him you will do as He said.
A person can claim all they want they believe in Jesus, but if they disobey what He taught then they are not of His sheep.

And FYI Paul, John, and James are not talking to lost unbelievers, they are telling believers how they can and can not act/walk in the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hoffco]

I still will affirm again my faith in the tittle of this post; no works/no salvation. faith and works come from the gift of God called the new birth by God's power and mercy. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[know1]

Yes, notice the words the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart "TOGETHER that is, the word of faith, which we are preaching, now *(notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. It's not believe in your heart today then finally confess next week and you are finally saved next week.

Agreed and true.
I never said anything about them being separate steps.

To believe UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS means you are saved. It does not mean you are still lost until you accomplish something later. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. That is to believe unto righteousness which means you are saved.

I respectfully disagree.
You are confusing the two different works that are written and lumping them into one.
You just got done quoting God's word that says after confession is made that one is saved. If one truly believes in Jesus, they will confess Him as lord and such.

The word is near you, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART - TOGETHER. Those who confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead and vice versa. It's not one or the other, it's both.

Agreed again on it being both together.

believes unto righteousness = saved (Romans 4:5).

I respectfully disagree.
Only because the word believe is a verb or an action word.
I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.
Action will follow the believing. The action being the speaking.

That's not what Paul is teaching. It's not believes unto unrighteousness today then finally confess next week and are finally saved next week. What does Romans 10:8 say? The word is near you, in your mouth AND in your heart - TOGETHER.

Same as above, concerning this topic.

So what about someone who is unable to speak? (they are moot). How can they confess VERBALLY with their MOUTH? Such a person would remain lost according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9,10.

Have you ever seen them do sign language? That would be a corresponding work to their faith.

So you don't believe that the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together? And that a person who believes unto righteousness is still lost and won't be saved until later, after they verbally confess Christ? May take days or weeks to finally confess? Is that what we read in Romans 10:8-10? So how do you harmonize your interpretation of Romans 10:9-10 with Romans 4:5; Acts 10:43; 13;39; 16:31?

Again, I never said any such thing, nor have I indicated such.
The word clearly states, faith without corresponding works is dead. If there is no work to their believing how can their faith be alive.
Even as believing and confessing are done simultaneously, so must faith and corresponding works be done likewise. Otherwise, as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also, therefore salvation or the new birth has not taken place.

 

[know1]

I still will affirm again my faith in the tittle of this post; no works/no salvation. faith and works come from the gift of God called the new birth by God's power and mercy. Love to all, Hoffco

Okay, thanks.
Hello Hoffco.

 

[mailmandan]

Agreed and true.
I never said anything about them being separate steps.

Amen!

I respectfully disagree.
You are confusing the two different works that are written and lumping them into one.

First you say they are not separate steps, but now you are saying they are? If we are not saved yet when we believe and must accomplish something afterwards in order to become saved, then Romans 4:5 is a lie. God forbid! What about John 3:16 and Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31? What "additional requirements" do these verses "add" to believing in order to become saved?

You just got done quoting God's word that says after confession is made that one is saved. If one truly believes in Jesus, they will confess Him as lord and such.

Believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation together. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart and not just one or the other. Do you really believe that believes unto righteousness = still lost? Is that what we read in Romans 4:2-5? Romans 8:10 - But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. But this = still lost? NO.

Agreed again on it being both together.

Amen! Both TOGETHER.

I respectfully disagree.
Only because the word believe is a verb or an action word.
I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.
Action will follow the believing. The action being the speaking.

First you said "not separate steps" and "both together" but now you are back to saying you disagree?

Same as above, concerning this topic.

You agree and disagree above.

Have you ever seen them do sign language? That would be a corresponding work to their faith.

That is still not VERBALLY confessing with their MOUTH, which you said is what saves. Sign language is not verbally confessing with their mouth, yet the word of faith is still in their mouth and in their heart, even if they can't get the words to come out because they are moot. They still agree with God that Jesus is Lord. You said corresponding "work" now are we saved through faith or by works?

Again, I never said any such thing, nor have I indicated such. The word clearly states, faith without corresponding works is dead. If there is no work to their believing how can their faith be alive.

So you believe that a "dead" faith "produces works" in order to become a living faith? That's like saying a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree. How can something dead produce anything? Faith is alive in Christ FIRST (Ephesians 2:5-10) which is then demonstrated by producing works (created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works and not the other way around). A tree is alive FIRST which is demonstrated by producing fruit.

Even as believing and confessing are done simultaneously, so must faith and corresponding works be done likewise. Otherwise, as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also, therefore salvation or the new birth has not taken place.

Believing and confessing are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. The word of faith is in our heart and in our mouth - TOGETHER. So what you are saying is that we are not really saved through faith but saved by corresponding works which follow? In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, the life in faith is the source of the works. Notice in Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) 8 through faith, 9 not works 10 created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works. Notice which comes first. You have works as the cause of the new birth instead of the result of the new birth.

 

[mailmandan]

Its not my "4 step check list" but Christ's.

No, it's yours.

Again, you are searching for a way to get a person saved without that person having to do the works of belief repentance confession and submitting to baptism. Or else you will deny these things are works, but they surely are.

You are trying to turn salvation through faith, not works into salvation through faith plus works, but you remain in error. A person who believes and is saved has already repented and believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. The word of faith is in their mouth and in their heart - TOGETHER. This is not salvation by works, but by the time you apply your bad semantics to repent, belief, confess and reverse the scriptural order of repent/believe and add baptism to the list as a prerequisite for salvation, you turn this into salvation by works, which is what your itching ears want to hear. Your faith is clearly not exclusively in Christ for salvation but is in your mixed up 4 step check list.

You try to claim confession and belief are not two separate steps but they are, they are not the same thing.

They are not the exact same thing BUT the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart - TOGETHER (Romans 10:8). Also believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation PRECEDES water baptism. According to your 4 step check list, one does not believe unto righteousness, but unto confession, which is not made unto salvation, but made unto baptism, which is finally then done unto salvation. Your 4 step check list has holes in it.

Jn 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believedon him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:"

Many believed but did not confess so the two cannot be just one step.

This confession here is not the initial confession unto salvation of Romans 10:9,10. In John 12:42, their unwillingness to confess Christ in this isolated situation may throw some doubt on the complete genuineness of the faith of these men to some people, but they may have only had a weak moment and failed to confess Christ in this isolated situation in front of the Pharisees, but that does not mean that they must not have confessed Christ to others. The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (Jn. 18:17,25-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these Jewish rulers as well.

*Later on, we see that Peter had another weak moment. Paul even had to rebuke Peter! Read about it in (Galatians 2:11-15). "Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; or before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision, just like the Jewish rulers. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.." Some public confession of Christ!

James says the devils believe, but they do not confess either nor repent nor be baptized for their belief only is dead being void of repentance confession and baptism.

Their belief is without repentance and confession and is dead because (root of the issue) their trust and reliance is in Satan, not in Christ, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Of course they refuse to be water baptized. They are committed to Satan, not Christ. The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Again, their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. You still cannot grasp this DEEPER faith (there is a reason for that) which explains why you have so much faith in "water and works" instead of in Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, it is dead and remains dead until acted upon.

So it's a dead faith that produces good works in order to become a living faith? How can something that is dead produce anything? Faith is made alive in Christ FIRST; saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). So faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith, it's alive in Christ. Does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree? Same thing with faith.

You can have faith only hungry people will be fed but not until you act upon that faith by working to feed them they will not be fed and your faith only is dead.

By refusing to give a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body you DEMONSTRATE that your faith is dead. Doing this is a DEMONSTRATION of our faith and not the origin of it.

God commanded Noah to build an ark to the saving of his house, Heb 11:7. Instead of obeying God, what if Noah just had "faith only" that God would save his house while he just sat and did nothing. Where would his faith only gotten him?

Keep in mind that what James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith, not genuine faith. This has kept you in confusion and has you believing that we are saved "by" works. If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith. Now keep in mind that Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), and was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated and showed his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. The work of building the ark did not earn his salvation.

Both,

It's not both. Paul said saved through faith, not works. He did not say saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9.

Faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies Rom 3:28
obey from the heart>>>>>>>>>freed from sin (justified) Rom 6:16-18.

You continue to write a blank check with the word "obey" here and fill it in with works. This is a major stumbling block for you. As I have already explained to you numerous times, in Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

So "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine" does not equate to salvation by works. Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. *1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in *Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith." In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We obey the gospel/obey that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel. That is when we are accounted as righteous/become slaves of obedience unto righteousness.

Since there is just ONE way to be saved/justified, no alternatives, then faith must include obeying from the heart.

When we choose to place our faith in Christ for salvation, we have obeyed from the heart. With the heart one believes unto righteousness.. You continue to confuse the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience which follow (works).

My simple question to you asked earlier that I did not see simple 'yes' or 'no' answer:

Simple question I have asked many times before: can one become a Christ and not do good works yet be save anyway?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

The simple answer is no and it's not because we are saved by works, but because good works are the demonstrative evidence that we are a Christian. The lack of doing any good works at all would demonstrate that this person is not a genuine Christian. So a Christian who does no good works at all = OXYMORON.

 

[mailmandan]

But then once again you quote the first 4 verses in 1 Corinthians 15 and do not read or give mention to the rest of what Paul said.

Paul clearly spelled out the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Nothing to be added or subtracted to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

For he says later in the chapter and even in verse 58 that we are to remain steadfast, immovable, and always abounding (doing) the work of the Lord in our lives.

For our labor is not in vain in the Lord. This is not a how to become saved passage. Paul is not telling us to do this in order to become saved. Salvation by works is not the gospel.

For our faith in Jesus is an active faith that we are to labor in everyday as Paul says.

Yes, BECAUSE we are saved and not to become saved.

Not of ourselves means we do nothing of ourselves to earn salvation.

That's right. It is the gift of God, not of works.

However doing as the Lord commanded is not doing works of ourselves, but doing as commanded to do by the Lord unto salvation.

So which works are unto salvation in Ephesians 2:8,9? I must have missed that.

If you want to continue and say just believe alone, but refrain from telling others what that belief entails then you will always give a false message.

If you dismiss salvation through belief IN CHRIST alone (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 13;39; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc.., then you add works to the gospel, making it a false message of salvation by works.

A person can claim all they want that they believe in the Lord, His death, burial, and resurrection. But if they continue to walk in darkness, which means to continue to willfully/deliberately sin then they truly do not know God, not are they saved even though they profess that.

I agree. The key word in your argument above is "claim."

For the bible even says there will be those who profess to know God but in works they will deny Him (Titus 1:16).

Amen! If we truly know Him, then we will demonstrate it by our works (James 2:18). Notice in 1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Paul is making another statement there that our walk must match our faith in Christ.

A person can claim all they want that they have faith, but if there is no evidence by their walk, then their faith is bogus.

Your last statement here about 1 John 3:10 goes exactly with what I have been saying about your walk/actions must go hand in hand with your faith in Christ. You have debated against me on this topic, yet you here are saying exactly what I have said. That you can not separate the walk in the faith with the belief in the faith, as this is what James is showing by faith without works is dead.

Yet we don't want to twist this into salvation by works.

For James is quoting in his own words the same thing Jesus said about if you believe in Him you will do as He said.

Exactly. Where is the evidence that we truly believe in Him.

A person can claim all they want they believe in Jesus, but if they disobey what He taught then they are not of His sheep.

True, but this also does not mean that we will live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives 100% of the time either, as some teach "sinless perfection."

And FYI Paul, John, and James are not talking to lost unbelievers, they are telling believers how they can and can not act/walk in the faith of Jesus Christ.

All of the epistles are addressed to believers, yet not everyone in the audience is a genuine believer. Paul, John and James show who truly is a believer and who is not based on the evidence or lack of evidence of their actions. So good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

 

[Budman]

How does one know when you've done enough works to remain saved? And if we falter at any point, are we lost and must get saved again....and again....and again?

And can one boast that they should also receive glory for helping to keep themselves saved?

How can a gift be a gift if one must work to receive or to keep it?

It must be terrifying and exhausting to believe our own efforts keep us saved.

 

[Elin]

How does one know when you've done enough works to remain saved? And if we falter at any point, are we lost and must get saved again....and again....and again?

And can one boast that they should also receive glory for helping to keep themselves saved?

How can a gift be a gift if one must work to receive or to keep it?

It must be terrifying and exhausting to believe our own efforts keep us saved.

It would be for me!

 

[Elin]

My simple question to you asked earlier that I did not see simple 'yes' or 'no' answer:

Simple question I have asked many times before:
can one "become a Christian" and not do good works yet be save anyway?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

Yes. . .it's the same as "becoming a runner," having never ever run, and yet still being a runner anyway?

That's not so hard to understand. . .

The simple answer is no

Oops! . . .looks like I got that wrong. . .how did I miss that?

and it's not because we are saved by works, but because good works are the demonstrative evidence that we are a Christian. The lack of doing any good works at all would demonstrate that this person is not a genuine Christian. So a Christian who does no good works at all = OXYMORON.

OXYMORON is the necessary result of his false gospel. . .

 

[Elin]

Please understand sir that works are a symptom of a renewed and renewing heart.

No sir, you do not understand what faith is. Works in general, after one is born again, are merely GOOD WORKS as a result of being born again, they are not works of faith.

Baloney. . .that is not the meaning of either "works" or "works of faith" in the NT.

That is the shoehorned meaning of your false gospel.

Doing good things that are pleasing to God does not necessarily constitute those works as works of faith.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
They spoke what they believed, not something entirely unrelated to what they believed. There words of faith were in line with their believing. The words spoken were a work of faith that was directed at the thing they believed. This is faith, and they didn't even have to go anywhere or do anything for or to anyone for this WORK of faith.
Good works will not get a prayer answered, neither does it do anything for you faith.

 

[Elin]

I think one thing is when it comes to this debate is that
we need to get over or away from the word works....

You very well are right on that. (I was thinking the same thing that
when the word works is used there is some confusion as to what one is saying)

I'm not sure it is ever good to get away from one of God's words.

Ours is to uphold and understand it correctly, in context of the whole counsel of God.

I just don't think it is ever ours to improve on God's words.

 

[Elin]

Yes but could an infallible bible written to help find God also been used to single out a belief structure for the greater good of 'the church'? . Look through this thread though.
It's Verse v Verse to prove 2 different ideas or interpretations

Don't blame it on the Bible. . .blame it on the readers of it.

As long as there is a word of God written, there will be those who misuse it. . .it's Satan's main strategy, "Hath God said?"

I am a backslidden Christian but have had God on my mind more and more recently. I believe it is God doing that. Since I have been away from my relationship with god and the church it has become easier to see things from different perspectives. I analyse things by nature and use to ask the same questions when I was a Christian.
I believe in God but I question the way it is exclusive to Christianity.
Did Jesus die on the cross as a way of bringing mankind to come to know him but
not so we can focus on the sacrifice itself
but now we can find God thanks to him?

Your questions can be answered for you only in belief and understanding of the NT word of God written