OSAS doctrine denies the faith

sparkman · May 25, 2015

You cannot argue with Scripture. I quoted from Isaiah 53. In fact, you would have to ignore the entire animal sacrificial system in order to make your arguments.

Substitutionary atonement is the primary facet of the atonement, which has other facets. The Ransom theory may be a minor facet. However, to deny that substitutionary atonement is the major facet is a massive error and heresy.

As I said above, You'd need to ignore the entire sacrificial system, Isaiah 53 and much of the rest of the Bible to discount substitutionary atonement. A minor facet of the atonement may be related to the ransom theory but that definitely does not negate the massive primary facet related to substitutionary atonement. The fallacy involved in this is called fallacy of the single cause. That fallacy is the one you are committing. In fact, youre not only committing the fallacy of the single cause; you are selecting a rather minor cause and ignoring the massive one.

And, most importantly, you are negating God's justness by your assertion. God is just in that he punishes ALL sin. He is merciful in that he provided for Himself a sin offering in Jesus Christ. Christianity has a robust view of atonement compared to other world views due to this very reason. Your view of the atonement corresponds very closely to Islam, which is not surprising since Muslims are basically Pelagians.

Skinski7 said:

Matt Slick is a 5 point Calvinist I believe. A very deceived individual who deceives many others. Sparkman obviously runs to him as an authority instead of using his own words to present a defence of what he believes. This is why so many are deceived, people read what others think and then buy into what sounds good instead of diligently digging for themselves.

Here is something I wrote on Ransom...

The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"

Jesus came to redeem us from ALL iniquity and make us pure.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Being redeemed means being ransomed.

G3084 - Redeem -lutroō
From G3083; to ransom (literally or figuratively): - redeem.

The Bible teaches that a Christian is both redeemed and forgiven. Redemption and forgiveness are two different aspects of salvation.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

G629 - Redemption - apolutrōsis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

Jesus bought us with His blood. His blood was the price He paid to ransom us from all iniquity.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

A sinner is a slave to sin because they yield to sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Sinners have sold themselves into this state of bondage and their redemption is without money.

Isa_52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

The price paid was the blood of Jesus Christ.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

H1350 - Redeemed - gâ'al
A primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), that is, to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative’s property, marry his widow, etc.): - X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk (-man), purchase, ransom, redeem (-er), revenger.

It is Jesus Christ that makes us free indeed.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Set free by the blood and by the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This is why someone who has been TRULY redeemed does not sin. The bondage has been broken. They no longer yield to the passions and desires of their flesh and are thus no longer drawn into sin. They are the Lord's freemen...

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Previously being a servant of sin, now (having obeyed from the heart) a servant of righteousness.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

How does all this actually work?

It works through repentance and faith. One must first be broken on the rock of Christ (Mat 21:44) in order that the old master (Satan) be thrown off through the death of the old man (Rom 6:6) that we may go across to our new master whom is Jesus Christ. Thus we die (our old rebellious self serving man) with Christ that we may live unto God (Rom 14:8).

God sent Jesus to save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save us in our sins. There is no salvation in sin, there is salvation from sin.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Redemption from all iniquity and being made pure is the purpose. This is to happen NOW, in this life.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It is the pure in heart that will see God.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

It is through the purging of rebellion in repentance, by which we have put to death our former life of rebellion having crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24), that we can approach God boldly in a new and living way with a true heart in full assurance of faith and have our hearts sprinkled by the blood of Christ.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The blood of Jesus Christ purges our consciences of dead works that we may serve God acceptably. Our conscience will no longer bear witness against us for we have been washed and made clean.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
The Pearl of Great Price: Death of Christ (Atonement)

SarahM777 · May 25, 2015

sparkman said:

You cannot argue with Scripture. I quoted from Isaiah 53. In fact, you would have to ignore the entire animal sacrificial system in order to make your arguments.

Substitutionary atonement is the primary facet of the atonement, which has other facets. The Ransom theory may be a minor facet. However, to deny that substitutionary atonement is the major facet is a massive error and heresy.

As I said above, You'd need to ignore the entire sacrificial system, Isaiah 53 and much of the rest of the Bible to discount substitutionary atonement. A minor facet of the atonement may be related to the ransom theory but that definitely does not negate the massive primary facet related to substitutionary atonement. The fallacy involved in this is called fallacy of the single cause. That fallacy is the one you are committing. In fact, youre not only committing the fallacy of the single cause; you are selecting a rather minor cause and ignoring the massive one.

And, most importantly, you are negating God's justness by your assertion. God is just in that he punishes ALL sin. He is merciful in that he provided for Himself a sin offering in Jesus Christ. Christianity has a robust view of atonement compared to other world views due to this very reason. Your view of the atonement corresponds very closely to Islam, which is not surprising since Muslims are basically Pelagians.

Again you can't leave out that Jesus Himself made it clear that He gave His life as a RANSOM for many,we can't minimize it either. Nor did I say that substitutionary atonement is NOT part of it. I believe scripture points to BOTH and the question should be HOW DO THEY FIT together?

Skinski7 · May 25, 2015

sparkman said:

Jesus was your example not substitute.

Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Substitution negates the "living unto righteousness."

You believe Jesus died in your place so you don't have to. The Bible teaches we are to die with Him and in doing so we die to sin thus ending the state whereby we SERVED sin. In other words instead of obeying sin we obey righteousness.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul also wrote...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

One can only be a servant of righteousness if they have been made free from the service of sin. You cannot serve BOTH.

OSAS doesn't teach that does it? Penal Substitution doesn't teach that does it? Under OSAS and the Penal Model salvation is purely abstract and that is why those whom uphold those false doctrines are vehemently opposed to the actual "service of sin" having come to an end for the Christian.

Have you ever considered that?

Does your religion teach that you have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust?

Does your religion teach that Christians have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires?

Answer those two questions for they will reveal a lot about your religion.

Skinski7 · May 25, 2015

sparkman said:

You cannot argue with Scripture. I quoted from Isaiah 53. In fact, you would have to ignore the entire animal sacrificial system in order to make your arguments.

I am not ignoring anything. The Old Testament sacrificial system was a type and shadow of the sacrifice of Christ. The blood is what purified that which was on the Mercy Seat. Under the New Covenant it is US whom present ourselves to God as a living sacrifice with the law written upon our hearts whereby we are purged of our past sins.

There is no legal exchange taught under the Old Testament sacrificial system. The Old Testament sacrificial system was a means for people to approach God seeking to be reconciled by faith. God provided them with a system to do that with but the real sacrifice was yet in the future.

Jesus was offered a lamb without spot. Jesus was not offered as a lamb with our spots. He bore our sins in the sense that He died on behalf of our sins. Jesus did not assume our guilt and act as a stand in to absorb the wrath of God. That is nonsense.

Substitutionary atonement is the primary facet of the atonement, which has other facets. The death of Christ was not a substitution. The death of Christ was an act done on our behalf in order to affirm the New Covenant. I have already posted the scriptures which plainly assert this, you just ignore them. It is true Jesus died because of our sins but Jesus did not die as a substitute wrath stand in. Jesus was not punished by God. The punishment for sin is not death on a cross, it is the Lake of Fire. Jesus was not cast into the Lake of Fire.

Penal Substitution misrepresents God by teaching that He punishes an innocent in order to let the innocent go. That is not justice. The reason Jesus gave Himself for us was to...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

There it is right there in your Bible as plain as day. Jesus gave Himself for you that He might redeem you from ALL iniquity and make you pure. Having been redeemed from all iniquity and made pure you would be zealous of righteousness. That is why Jesus died for you, that was the purpose.

The death of Christ has NOTHING to do with any forensic legal exchange which you are to trust in. We trust in the blood in the context that it is the blood which enjoins us into covenant with God for it was the blood (death of Christ) which put the New Covenant into effect. That is what the Bible teaches, not Penal Substitution.

The very fact that you proclaim 1Joh 1:8-9 as a proof text that you are still inwardly wicked and will always be so is proof positive that you deny Titus 2:14 as having any relevance to this life.

The Jesus you believe in is a fiction and the sacrifice you believe in is a fiction. That is why you deny any true redemptive testimony of having been delivered from your sins. The real Jesus really delivers people from their sins, He doesn't cloak them leaving them manifestly filthy.

The Ransom theory may be a minor facet. However, to deny that substitutionary atonement is the major facet is a massive error and heresy. So you think. You are deceived.

As I said above, You'd need to ignore the entire sacrificial system, Isaiah 53 and much of the rest of the Bible to discount substitutionary atonement. A minor facet of the atonement may be related to the ransom theory but that definitely does not negate the massive primary facet related to substitutionary atonement. The fallacy involved in this is called fallacy of the single cause. That fallacy is the one you are committing. In fact, youre not only committing the fallacy of the single cause; you are selecting a rather minor cause and ignoring the massive one. The fallacy you uphold is that you can sin and not surely die. You can talk about fallacies all day long but it is you who are upholding Satan's very first lie, not me.

And, most importantly, you are negating God's justness by your assertion. God is just in that he punishes ALL sin. God does not punish all sin. The Bible teaches that God forgives sin.

You see you have to deny that God forgives sin. Jesus "paying the fine" is a denial of the "fine being forgiven" and you have just admitted such in your own words, probably without realising it.

Look at the parable of the unforgiving servant...

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Read it over and over. Sin is freely forgiven without any need for a payment.

God forgives sins.

Penal Substitution is inconsistent with the forgiveness of sins because it teaches that all sins are punished, none are forgiven.

See how easy it is to disprove Penal Substitution? Like I said earlier, you have to suppress reason and persist a focus on the imaginations of your mind. I would suspect that demonic influences make that road easier too for our war is not against flesh and blood. All this deception is from Satan.

He is merciful in that he provided for Himself a sin offering in Jesus Christ. Christianity has a robust view of atonement compared to other world views due to this very reason. Your view of the atonement corresponds very closely to Islam, which is not surprising since Muslims are basically Pelagians. What I uphold is not even remotely close to Islam. There you go again by trying to demean by association. You cannot put together anything of substance with your own words.

Is it pride that forces you to resist the obvious?

Is it fear of broaching a comfort zone long induced through dogmatic repetition?

We only have one chance in this life and Jesus did say strive and Jesus did say be careful in what manner you hear. Are you careful? Do you strive?

Skinski in blue.

sparkman · May 25, 2015

If Jesus didn't die in your place, you're not saved. Simple as that. God is not just, and your salvation is all about you and your works. There's no salvation in such a view of "Christianity". It's not even Christianity.

Skinski7 said:

Jesus was your example not substitute.

Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Substitution negates the "living unto righteousness."

You believe Jesus died in your place so you don't have to. The Bible teaches we are to die with Him and in doing so we die to sin thus ending the state whereby we SERVED sin. In other words instead of obeying sin we obey righteousness.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul also wrote...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

One can only be a servant of righteousness if they have been made free from the service of sin. You cannot serve BOTH.

OSAS doesn't teach that does it? Penal Substitution doesn't teach that does it? Under OSAS and the Penal Model salvation is purely abstract and that is why those whom uphold those false doctrines are vehemently opposed to the actual "service of sin" having come to an end for the Christian.

Have you ever considered that?

Does your religion teach that you have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust?

Does your religion teach that Christians have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires?

Answer those two questions for they will reveal a lot about your religion.

Skinski7 · May 25, 2015

sparkman said:

Again you make statements with no substance behind them. You don't answer any of my questions. You don't address any of the scriptures or points I make. You just quote all my text and basically call me a heretic and blow it all off.

I suppose that is all you can do.

What I believe is certainly not what you perceive as "Christianity."

Christianity to you basically consists of...

Confessing your sinfulness before God.
Confessing your inability to do the right thing before God.
Trusting that Jesus was punished instead of you so that your punishment is no longer due.
Trusting that the obedience track record of Jesus is credited to your account.
Adding any "doing" to any of this "about you and works" and is thus to be avoided.
You remain inwardly wicked but so long as you keep confessing all the sins you do then all is ok.

What a stupid religion. You might as well rip Matthew, Mark, Luke and John from your Bible and throw it away as it all really means nothing to you.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

SarahM777 · May 25, 2015

sparkman said:

Can you explain this then How was God able to save David or the city of Nineveh without any substitution?

p_rehbein · May 25, 2015

Re: OSAS doctrine denies the faith

Originally Posted by sparkman

If Jesus didn't die in your place, you're not saved. Simple as that. God is not just, and your salvation is all about you and your works. There's no salvation in such a view of "Christianity". It's not even Christianity.

Can you explain this then How was God able to save David or the city of Nineveh without any substitution?

oo, oo, oo, me, me, I can, I can........ oh, wait, you weren't talking to me

Skinski7 · May 25, 2015

sparkman said:

This is the perfect example of strong delusion.

Penal Substitution is a present day bedrock which once bought into becomes the very definition of Christianity to many people. Thus once someone falls into this deception is is almost impossible to escape.

If one has banked their entry into the kingdom of God upon Penal Substitution is becomes very difficult to penetrate the walls that form. For Penal Substitution to be wrong to these people implies they are naked before God and in big trouble.

Yet it is better to be found naked before God now and realise one is in big trouble than to be exposed to such a reality at the judgement.

MANY MANY MANY MANY people are going to go LORD LORD and be rejected. Jesus calls these people WORKERS OF INIQUITY.

Isn't ongoing iniquity what many in this thread are arguing in favour of? Are not people saying "sin we will and sin we must" and using 1Joh 1:8-9 as their proof text? Isn't that whay they are doing? Let us be honest here, this is not brain surgery to figure out is it?

Jesus said...

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Who are the many? Are they the very FEW like me who oppose the MANY who decry what I teach?

I am the one telling people that they have to depart from iniquity and therefore no longer be workers of iniquity. Yet people hate that message and claim it is impossible. They call that message "self righteousness" and "trusting in yourself" and "saving yourself." Come on people use your reason.

Was Noah self righteous because he obeyed God and built the ark? Did Noah go, "hey look at me God, look at how good I am." NO HE DIDN'T. He simply did what God told him to do . That is all I am saying.

When the Bible says...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

... it means it. Sin has to be confessed and forsaken. If one is raping babies they have to confess that sin and forsake it BEFORE God will forgive them. How could it be otherwise?

What kind of Holy God would forgive a child molester who continues to molest children? Is that what you think grace is? Grace is some kind of cloak for ongoing wickedness? Come on people. Be honest with yourselves, think of these things from the heart.

The Bible says this...

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Yet hardly anyone seems to believe it. Hardly anyone on a Christian Discussion Forum believes those three verses written by Paul. It plainly says that God is going to render to every man according to what they DO. DEEDS. To those who patiently continue in well doing whom seek for glory and honour and immortality, they receive eternal life. Does that sound like ongoing wickedness to anyone?

We read...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Blessed are they that DO his commandments, that thjey may have right to the tree of life. Is that verse joking?

I come quickly and give to every man according as his work shall be? Work is a reference to DEEDS. What we do matters. We either serve sin or serve righteousness. This is not about legalism or saving ourselves, it is about whether we are in obedience to God or in rebellion. That is the issue.

The Lake of Fire is for those in rebellion. DON'T BE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE EVEN THOUGH MOST PEOPLE WILL BE.

Rather be one of the FEW.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I really don't think I can add anything else as I would just be repeating myself. Those of you who persistently reject the notion that we MUST be DOERS are really victims of your own doing, self deceived.

SarahM777 · May 25, 2015

p_rehbein said:

Re: OSAS doctrine denies the faith

Originally Posted by sparkman

If Jesus didn't die in your place, you're not saved. Simple as that. God is not just, and your salvation is all about you and your works. There's no salvation in such a view of "Christianity". It's not even Christianity.

Can you explain this then How was God able to save David or the city of Nineveh without any substitution?

oo, oo, oo, me, me, I can, I can........ oh, wait, you weren't talking to me

You can answer it too.

sparkman · May 25, 2015

How many times did I tell you that faith produces salvation, and salvation produces obedience and works? Maybe five times?

Obedience is never perfect, though. And your claims that your obedience is perfect are clearly a product of self deception or lies. I Peter 1:8-9.

Skinski7 said:

Again you make statements with no substance behind them. You don't answer any of my questions. You don't address any of the scriptures or points I make. You just quote all my text and basically call me a heretic and blow it all off.

I suppose that is all you can do.

What I believe is certainly not what you perceive as "Christianity."

Christianity to you basically consists of...

Confessing your sinfulness before God.
Confessing your inability to do the right thing before God.
Trusting that Jesus was punished instead of you so that your punishment is no longer due.
Trusting that the obedience track record of Jesus is credited to your account.
Adding any "doing" to any of this "about you and works" and is thus to be avoided.
You remain inwardly wicked but so long as you keep confessing all the sins you do then all is ok.

What a stupid religion. You might as well rip Matthew, Mark, Luke and John from your Bible and throw it away as it all really means nothing to you.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

sparkman · May 25, 2015

David looked forward to salvation through Jesus Christ on the cross. Salvation was always about faith. Regarding Nineveh, they were saved from physical destruction. I am not confident they were saved spiritually but if they were, they were saved looking forward to salvtion through Jesus Christ on the cross too.

p_rehbein said:

sparkman · May 25, 2015

Here's a good video by Todd Friel concerning these guys who claim to be in Jesus Christ yet deny his substitutionary atonement on the cross. As he indicates, their view is all about works righteousness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgqL1y_fEHo

kennethcadwell · May 25, 2015

sparkman said:

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, where unto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

prove-all · May 25, 2015

sparkman said:

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

sparkman · May 25, 2015

prove-all said:

Do you realize that no one knows what you're inferring except me, a former Armstrongite?

prove-all · May 25, 2015

having put on the breastplate of righteousness, for Gods commandments are righteousness

172My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

sparkman · May 25, 2015

prove-all said:

They don't have the secret Herbie Armstrong decoder ring to understand all spiritual truths

prove-all · May 25, 2015

sparkman said:

so no one here but you have this understanding?

sparkman · May 25, 2015

I have rejected Herbies interpretation of Scripture but he was better than the Pelagians.

OSAS doctrine denies the faith

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