Sinless Perfectionism

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Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#61
I am afraid that you misunderstand Pelagianism as in what Pelagius taught which can be clearly assertained in his dispute with Augustine over Romans 7.
I understand perfectly what Pelagius taught. Pelagius believed that the soul of man at his creation is neither holy nor sinful. Adam was not created holy, according to this false teaching. Pelagius claimed Adam was not constitutionally inclined either toward good or evil. He said the first man was morally indifferent or neutral.

In this state of moral equilibrium, Adam would have been no more disposed to good than to evil. Pelagius argued that if Adam had possessed any moral character prior to moral action, his moral responsibility would be destroyed. He also claims Adam, as created, would have died.

There is nothing biblically to indicate that is true. On first glance there appears to be nothing biblically to discount it, either, but if Adam was made, as God said, "in Our image," then it is impossible Adam was intended to die. In fact, the death Adam's sin brought upon him was physical, which is a proof against his being the moral free agent Pelagius claims him to have been before that sin.

It is on this basis that Pelagius claimed that man was his own moral compass, capable of living sinlessly. Since the philosopher -- I call him that, rather than a follower of Christ -- believed it was possible for Adam to choose sin or sinlessness, then it was natural for him to assume that the only way grace was accountable was for past sins, and that it was through the power of Christ in a believer that he/she achieves "sinlessness."

It's a crock of horse manure. It is indicative of a complete misunderstanding of Christ, of the "old man's death," and what portion of us is truly a new creation. It is based on this complete failure to grasp the Gospel and the similarities of the false teachers here who embrace "sinless perfection" as possible in this life that I say they are "Pelagian Christians" -- an impossible oxymoron.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#62
He is saying the same thing I have been saying which is what the Bible teaches. 1 Peter 4:1 says they that suffer in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says those that are Christ's have crucified the afffections and lusts. Yes, some believers do struggle with sin. That is what 1 John 1:9 is for. But believers do not set out with the mindset that they will always sin and not overcome sin. Paul mentions in Ephesians 2 and Colossians 3 that we used to be sinners in our old past life but we are not that way anymore. Paul says in Romans 6 that you are either a slave to righteousness or you are a slave to sin and death. Jesus says if you sin, you are a slave to sin. The question is....

Why would you want to continue in sin?
For if you knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would you not want to take that chance?
Well, the Bible says it is because of the Condemnation in John 3:19-21. Men loved their darkness and their evil deeds more than they loved the light. That is why.
In no way did you answer the scripture you just dodge it and attempted to make a loop hole. you are not talking about overcoming sin you are talking about not sinning period about perfection. we overcome sin all the time we mess up we repent and we move forward knowing that grace will make us pure in his sight and that sin has no power over us. yes we will fall again we still always have that human nature but we will never be without sin and be perfect
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#63
I gave you an answer with Scripture. If you did not like that answer I cannot help you. Pray to the Lord for understanding and He will give it to you.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
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#64
Again, you seek to attack me like many others here instead of addressing what the Bible really says. If you cannot discuss the Bible, I am going to assume you have no understanding of those passages. For a true believer wants to talk about God's Word. For man shall not live by bread alone.
you are the only one attacking ppl, I in no way am attacking you. I discuss the bible but I don't use the bible like you do. You think just because you use scripture makes you right? even satan used scripture when tempting Jesus did that make him right? it isn't enough to know scripture Jason
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#65
2 Timothy 2:15 KJV says study to show yourself approved unto God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#66
I gave you an answer with Scripture. If you did not like that answer I cannot help you. Pray to the Lord for understanding and He will give it to you.
you gave me answer yes but it an answer dodging the scriptures point. your view says we are to be without sin but this scripture says the opposite the bible doesn't contridict itself so tell me why does my scripture say we cannot be without sin while you ay the scripture you use says other wise?
 

Hepzibah

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2015
337
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#67
VW

I agree with Pelagius, Adam was born innocent not holy. He had to pass the test to be holy and he failed. There is little scriptural evidence for inborn sin. He died spirituallly at that point. he did not die physically.

No Augustine claimed that man is rotten to the core, and Pelagius rightly said that man can chose to sin or not - look at reformed alcoholics. He did not say man could be sinless without grace, just that he can chose whether to sin or not. No one is righteous so all fall.

You are not taking into account what happened at the dispute on Romans 7. It is the best way of understanding Pelagius rather than misinformation about him which abounds. You have got to get how he interpreted it and it is plain by Augustine's two interpretations.
 
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Reborn

Senior Member
Nov 16, 2014
4,087
216
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#68
God's Word can cut thru false interpretation like a sword. The Bible says we are to correct using the Word of God. Don't really see you doing that. Again, like many times I have said to you before, either discuss God's Word or go elswhere to insult people at the appropriate place.
How have l insulted you Jason?

...because l stand behind OSAS?

I asked if you can float?
You do believe you can be on a Jesus type level, so it was a real question?
Have you obtained that?

If you're going to drop junk teachings.......expect others to come by and sweep up your mess.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#69
you gave me answer yes but it an answer dodging the scriptures point. your view says we are to be without sin but this scripture says the opposite the bible doesn't contridict itself so tell me why does my scripture say we cannot be without sin while you ay the scripture you use says other wise?
John 14:23
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#71
How have l insulted you Jason?

...because l stand behind OSAS?

I asked if you can float?
You do believe you can be on a Jesus type level, so it was a real question?
Have you obtained it?

You want to drop junk teachings.......expect others to come by and sweep up your mess.
If you really cannot honestly see it, I would ask you to talk to God about it.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#72
sparkman

Yes I know the preacher, I have seen a video of him. It amazes me how they can't see their sins.
Hepzibah, I was very upset for days after seeing that guy's videos and how he misrepresents Christianianity. I confronted him about it in a Facebook group. He basically consigned me to hell with his 'apostolic authority'.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#73
John 14:23
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
again you are misusing scripture and avoiding my question. I keep his words by seeking love above all else by refusing to be anything but love by refusing to see with any other eyes than his own which only sees out of love by knowing that desire to become very strong in him but knowing the reason we will be strong is because and out of love.how do you keep his word Jason?
 

Hepzibah

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2015
337
24
18
#74
Hepzibah, I was very upset for days after seeing that guy's videos and how he misrepresents Christianianity. I confronted him about it in a Facebook group. He basically consigned me to hell with his 'apostolic authority'.
Well that shows doesn't it. There are many false preachers like him. I think I might have written to him years ago and got a similar response.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#75
Dear Sparkman:

Yes, one is not saved if they willingly condone evil (Whether it be a little bit of evil or a lot of evil). For if you do evil, you are evil. It's not a new concept. It's basic morality. You should like already know that. Good guys do good and bad guys do bad.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#76
define what it means to be holy. I have met The lord face to face three times I am by no means sinless or perfect I cannot see myself as holy so why did he show himself to me why did he allow me to meet him in person? it sure wasn't because of me, it sure wasn't because I was sinless and perfect. if you want to be holy forget being sinless and perfect and instead look into the heart. The heart is what makes one holy in his eyes
 

Reborn

Senior Member
Nov 16, 2014
4,087
216
63
#77
If you really cannot honestly see it, I would ask you to talk to God about it.

See what?
The truth?

Am l getting under your skin, Jason?
This is how it feels for the rest of us, when we hear your broken record playing, over and over.

Might l suggest you take a trip into another thread on a different topic for once?
 

Hepzibah

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2015
337
24
18
#78
Good guys do good and bad guys do bad.
It's more than that Jason. It is how you conduct yourself amongst opposers and whether you are straight with them and answer their questions.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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#79
I understand perfectly what Pelagius taught. Pelagius believed that the soul of man at his creation is neither holy nor sinful. Adam was not created holy, according to this false teaching. Pelagius claimed Adam was not constitutionally inclined either toward good or evil. He said the first man was morally indifferent or neutral.

In this state of moral equilibrium, Adam would have been no more disposed to good than to evil. Pelagius argued that if Adam had possessed any moral character prior to moral action, his moral responsibility would be destroyed. He also claims Adam, as created, would have died.

There is nothing biblically to indicate that is true. On first glance there appears to be nothing biblically to discount it, either, but if Adam was made, as God said, "in Our image," then it is impossible Adam was intended to die. In fact, the death Adam's sin brought upon him was physical, which is a proof against his being the moral free agent Pelagius claims him to have been before that sin.

It is on this basis that Pelagius claimed that man was his own moral compass, capable of living sinlessly. Since the philosopher -- I call him that, rather than a follower of Christ -- believed it was possible for Adam to choose sin or sinlessness, then it was natural for him to assume that the only way grace was accountable was for past sins, and that it was through the power of Christ in a believer that he/she achieves "sinlessness."

It's a crock of horse manure. It is indicative of a complete misunderstanding of Christ, of the "old man's death," and what portion of us is truly a new creation. It is based on this complete failure to grasp the Gospel and the similarities of the false teachers here who embrace "sinless perfection" as possible in this life that I say they are "Pelagian Christians" -- an impossible oxymoron.
no offence bro
dose pauls parable have any value here.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5

and to think, why would paul use this as a parable etc
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#80
again you are misusing scripture and avoiding my question. I keep his words by seeking love above all else by refusing to be anything but love by refusing to see with any other eyes than his own which only sees out of love by knowing that desire to become very strong in him but knowing the reason we will be strong is because and out of love.how do you keep his word Jason?
A person cannot keep God's Word without being born again. They have to first repent of their sins and accept Jesus. They then study God's Word and seek to obey His commands with the Lord's help. Praying to the Lord and studying His Word and getting to know more about Him. Practicing righteousness and not sin. Not making excuses for sin by saying we will be a slave to sin. Suffering as Christ suffered will help a person to cease from sin as the Bible says.