Mike Bickle's "Israel Mandate"
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VW posted that the Vineyard follows false gospels (you can easily go read his post # 6, for yourself.)
That is an outright lie, and I said a few posts later that he could go online, and read pages of what the Vineyard believes in. I guess he cannot admit to shooting off his mouth, and being completely wrong, when he really has no idea what the Vineyard believes.
That is an outright lie, and I said a few posts later that he could go online, and read pages of what the Vineyard believes in. I guess he cannot admit to shooting off his mouth, and being completely wrong, when he really has no idea what the Vineyard believes.
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Does, or does not, the Vineyard movement place a premium on "experience-based" worship?
Does, or does not, the Vineyard Movement endorse the use of the "signs and wonders" ministries of tongues, prophecy, laying on of hands for healing, and the casting out of demons?
Does, or does not, the Vineyard Movement's willingness to "let the Holy Spirit move in ways we do not expect" with no limitation as outlined in several biblical restrictions -- particularly the writings of Paul -- allow for spiritual excess inventiveness to enter into and possibly mislead immature or "baby" believers?
Those are my concerns. If I am wrong, then please forgive me, but it is my position that the purpose of these "sign and wonders" was fulfilled at the close of the apostolic age. It is therefore difficult for me to see worship and ministry done when the focus is experience rather than Christ. That's just the way I see it, and I'm willing to admit I might be wrong.
Does, or does not, the Vineyard Movement endorse the use of the "signs and wonders" ministries of tongues, prophecy, laying on of hands for healing, and the casting out of demons?
Does, or does not, the Vineyard Movement's willingness to "let the Holy Spirit move in ways we do not expect" with no limitation as outlined in several biblical restrictions -- particularly the writings of Paul -- allow for spiritual excess inventiveness to enter into and possibly mislead immature or "baby" believers?
Those are my concerns. If I am wrong, then please forgive me, but it is my position that the purpose of these "sign and wonders" was fulfilled at the close of the apostolic age. It is therefore difficult for me to see worship and ministry done when the focus is experience rather than Christ. That's just the way I see it, and I'm willing to admit I might be wrong.
E
I believe in following scripture...I disagree with those who go over the edge and anything goes...but the Holy Spirit is still infilling believers and signs do follow and I have experienced some things that I would have to call extra-ordinary
and I guess here we go with the whole tongues thing again? I hope not
ps...I certainly do not agree with crowing like a rooster or barking like a dog...the Toronto blessing may have started off ok, but IMO, they need discerning of spirits....no, I was never there but I mean I am aware of course...the interwebs are chock full of info...some accurate and some not
Ask me how much I like sitting in some churches for an hr with everyone checking their watches...not wanting to start anything, but it is what it is
well, regarding the bold type above, Christ has always been the center of any Vinyard churches I have gone to...
I really dislike when Christians pull apart the Bible and try to chop it and compartamentalize what is and what is not still valid
There is much I disagree with regarding so called prophets and healers...but we have always had charlatans no doubt
and I guess here we go with the whole tongues thing again? I hope not
ps...I certainly do not agree with crowing like a rooster or barking like a dog...the Toronto blessing may have started off ok, but IMO, they need discerning of spirits....no, I was never there but I mean I am aware of course...the interwebs are chock full of info...some accurate and some not
Ask me how much I like sitting in some churches for an hr with everyone checking their watches...not wanting to start anything, but it is what it is
well, regarding the bold type above, Christ has always been the center of any Vinyard churches I have gone to...
I really dislike when Christians pull apart the Bible and try to chop it and compartamentalize what is and what is not still valid
There is much I disagree with regarding so called prophets and healers...but we have always had charlatans no doubt
part of being a wise and discerning child of the most high is the ability and maturity to compare what it taught or said with scripture as a standard and discard the parts that are in error and let the truth remain... many spend too much time looking at the messenger instead of the message, each stand or falls before the one who called, and each choses to believe and put into practice what they have learned , many read but few it seems actually study, as we are admonished to do (2 Timothy 2:15) and this is why many are deceived and led to believe and follow both false doctrine and false teachers, prophets, pastors or whatever, theres no need to be angry at the false teachers, they will give account as we all must, but rather be angry at the one who have resources available to study the word but do not use them, each will be judged according to what they have not what they don't have.
The issue for cessation doctrine seems to always be tongues. Then the USA AOG comes along in 1915 and says tongues are the initial evidence and later on stated you cannot be saved with out the "baptism" and started going down the road of works based salvation and righteousness and that you could lose it.
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit upon you was for power to witness. There are other gifts besides tongues as well. The things that bothers me about cessation doctrine, is that they thrive on just tongues. It also refuses to acknowledge that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is within and upon believers.
I also agree that revivals as the Toronto Blessing and especially the Brownsville revival here in the USA did need someone with enough discernment to say stop. Barking like dogs throwing gold glitter around and rooting like farm animals is not the Holy Spirit.
I have encountered the Holy Spirit in many ways as well, that some would find questionable. I am not about to quench the Spirit now, when we need him the most.
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit upon you was for power to witness. There are other gifts besides tongues as well. The things that bothers me about cessation doctrine, is that they thrive on just tongues. It also refuses to acknowledge that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is within and upon believers.
I also agree that revivals as the Toronto Blessing and especially the Brownsville revival here in the USA did need someone with enough discernment to say stop. Barking like dogs throwing gold glitter around and rooting like farm animals is not the Holy Spirit.
I have encountered the Holy Spirit in many ways as well, that some would find questionable. I am not about to quench the Spirit now, when we need him the most.
E
yeah...I know...of course you are saved ... I was saved for years before I spoke in tongues...saying you cannot be saved if you don't speak in tongues is ADDING to scripture...we those in the NY who were saved and received AFTER
I thank God for His Spirit...He makes Jesus so real and brings scripture alive!
I thank God for His Spirit...He makes Jesus so real and brings scripture alive!
And, what did the disciple come back, astonished and amazed about? Did they come back saying, "Yeah we stood on some street corners, and talked to the crowds awhile."? No, they came back with their eyes wide in wonder at the things they had done.
We need to wake up. Just about EVERYTHING Jesus did (and said we were also going to do) was all about "experiencing" the power that lived in Him, that WAS Him.
We need to wake up. Just about EVERYTHING Jesus did (and said we were also going to do) was all about "experiencing" the power that lived in Him, that WAS Him.
Well I hate to go Bible on you, but Matt 10.5-8 says:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not [SUP][f][/SUP]go [SUP][g][/SUP]in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; [SUP]6 [/SUP]but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And as you go, [SUP][h][/SUP]preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven [SUP][i][/SUP]is at hand.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. [SUP]9
So you tell me, where doe sit say go and make disciples at in this passage?
For your edification and benefit, I also used the NASB.
[/SUP]
[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not [SUP][f][/SUP]go [SUP][g][/SUP]in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; [SUP]6 [/SUP]but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And as you go, [SUP][h][/SUP]preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven [SUP][i][/SUP]is at hand.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. [SUP]9
So you tell me, where doe sit say go and make disciples at in this passage?
For your edification and benefit, I also used the NASB.
[/SUP]
P
I have had this happen to me many times on CC. It really stings to have a fellow believer stop just short of calling you satan.
I have issues with bickle,never ever listen to him,but to demonise the body of christ is guaranteed to bring unnecessary division. He is a believer. The dominion thinggy is error. But cessationists attack anything HS empowered.
I have issues with bickle,never ever listen to him,but to demonise the body of christ is guaranteed to bring unnecessary division. He is a believer. The dominion thinggy is error. But cessationists attack anything HS empowered.
Popeye,
You raise a legitimate issue. It is what motivates my several attempts to cool down the rhetoric on the forum.
IMO VW was more concerned about things being done in a manner consistent with 1Co chapter 14.
He seems to have encountered a disorderliness which may or may not be pervasive in the denomination.
It may have come across as more abrasive than he intended. I am not troubled by any manifestation of the Spirit; but I believe that the Holy Spirit does not lead congregations to be disorderly by the standards of 1Co chapter 14.
You raise a legitimate issue. It is what motivates my several attempts to cool down the rhetoric on the forum.
IMO VW was more concerned about things being done in a manner consistent with 1Co chapter 14.
He seems to have encountered a disorderliness which may or may not be pervasive in the denomination.
It may have come across as more abrasive than he intended. I am not troubled by any manifestation of the Spirit; but I believe that the Holy Spirit does not lead congregations to be disorderly by the standards of 1Co chapter 14.