Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Apples to oranges.


Did God owe you salvation? No. Therefore because of God's grace he has allowed you the opportunity to be saved through faith. So faith is a gift God has allowed you to have, you did not earn that gift of faith, God did not owe you that gift of faith but God has allowed you to have that gift of faith due to His grace.

if you stopped here you would be alright, your problem is, you do not stop here, you making people work to earn a wage (salvation)

It takes faith to work for a company (if you do not have faith in a company, you would not even apply to work there) if they let you. then you do the work after you start. You do not do work, then get into the company.

Same with salvation, it takes faith to save you (be allowed in) once your in, you do the work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

.....and that old straw man gets brought out of the closet that accuses me of doing 'self righteousness' when time and again I have quoted Rom 10:3 that proves one cannot be saved by doing his OWN righteousness but is saved by submitting/obeying GOD'S righteousness.....


This is one straw man that will not die.

Its not a straw man, it is the truth.

If you do work to earn something, you are doing self righteous works.

if your doing work because you were given something, then you are doing works of faith.

Your under the first example. your tryingn to earn salvation by self righteous works. not working because you were saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is a matter of fact that whosoever confesses Christ, Christ will confess them
It is a matter of fact that whosoever denies Christ, Christ will deny them before God.

Are you suggesting one can go against these bible facts and be saved anyway?

you act as if someone who was

1. Saved by God (shown and experienced his true love)
2. Perfected by God
3. Being sanctified by God
4. Given all the glorious blessings in Christ jesus.

would ever deny him.

the only way I can fathom why you would make such a claim, is you have not experienced any of the above, if you have, you would never make such claims.

 

[notuptome]

.....and that old straw man gets brought out of the closet that accuses me of doing 'self righteousness' when time and again I have quoted Rom 10:3 that proves one cannot be saved by doing his OWN righteousness but is saved by submitting/obeying GOD'S righteousness.....


This is one straw man that will not die.

Quote it all you want you do not comprehend it. You must take 2 Corinthians 5:21 with Romans 10:3 but then you are too busy telling God what He must accept and what He must not accept.

Your argument is with God not with me. You still do not have the doctrine regarding the Holy Spirit correct so you positively cannot understand the scriptures beyond those that teach you how to be saved. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Not in the NT meaning of "works" as regards salvation.

Jesus called belief a work in Jn 6:27-29. Those people asked Jesus what were are we to do and Jesus gave them the work of believing to do.

Matt 12:41 Jesus said the men of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah and in Joanh 3 the king of Nineveh lead the city to repent in sackcloth and ashes and Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Their repentance is called a work that God could see, just like in Mk 2:1-5 those men's work is called faith that Christ could see.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus called belief a work in Jn 6:27-29. Those people asked Jesus what were are we to do and Jesus gave them the work of believing to do.

Matt 12:41 Jesus said the men of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah and in Joanh 3 the king of Nineveh lead the city to repent in sackcloth and ashes and Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Their repentance is called a work that God could see, just like in Mk 2:1-5 those men's work is called faith that Christ could see.

you should read more.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” [SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

My believe (faith) is not my work. it is Gods work.

 

[Elin]

Yep, faith only advocates dismiss Jesus saying the one's that enter the kingdom are the ones that DOETH the Father's will.

The straw man of the truncated gospel. . .

 

[SeaBass]

Since we are dead how can we do anything? Ever seen a dead person do anything? Dead in trespass and sin. Dead men can do no works. The Holy Spirit must quicken the soul before anything can happen. Ephesians 2 tells you these things.

Repentance is the result not the cause of salvation. Believing comes from hearing and hearing Gods word. Man received the ability to choose when he fell in the garden. Man received the knowledge of good and evil. Because of this man must choose. John 3:18-21 describes the choosing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

A man PHYSICALLY dead cannot do anything but men that are dead SPIRITUALLY can do something. Peter's audience in Acts 2 were lost, spiritually dead. But they were able to listen and understand Peter's sermon that it pricked them in the heart prompting them to ask what they must do. Peter gave these 'dead' men the command to repent and be baptized and those that did had their sins remitted and added to the church.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A man PHYSICALLY dead cannot do anything but men that are dead SPIRITUALLY can do something. Peter's audience in Acts 2 were lost, spiritually dead. But they were able to listen and understand Peter's sermon that it pricked them in the heart prompting them to ask what they must do. Peter gave these 'dead' men the command to repent and be baptized and those that did had their sins remitted and added to the church.

a man spiritually dead can DO NOTHING FOR GOD. They are DEAD.

 

[Elin]

Yep. . .it's the same as becoming a runner, having never ever run, and still being a runner anyway.

It's not possible for one to be a runner if he has never ran.
Not possible for one to be a smoker if he never smokes.

You've got the natural physical order down right.

Not possible for one to be a slave to righteousness if he has never done any righteousness.

But the spiritual order, not so much.

Righteousness/justification is a gift (Ro 5:17).

Righteousness/sanctification is by the obedience of faith through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Your understanding of NT righteousness remains truncated.

 

[SeaBass]

no, right doing can not save it would take perfection (that is what the law requires, and God requires) . no one has done it but Christ.

Thats why he had to die.

If right doing (righteousness) does not save then the only alternative is wrong doing (unrighteouness) which does not save either and you leave man no way to be saved.

Nowhere does God expect man's righteousness to be sinlessly perfect. What right doing [righteousness] does is put one in Christ (Gal 3:27) and being in Christ one is then clothed by Christ's perfect righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

those saved DO obey him, thus Heb 5 is confirmed. Why do you reject the power of God to change his people?

Heb 5:9 does not say Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that disobey Him so they can then obey Him. That is an obvious rewrite of the verse.

 

[Delivery]

.....and that old straw man gets brought out of the closet that accuses me of doing 'self righteousness' when time and again I have quoted Rom 10:3 that proves one cannot be saved by doing his OWN righteousness but is saved by submitting/obeying GOD'S righteousness.....


This is one straw man that will not die.

[SUP]3[/SUP] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

So what does it mean to go about and establish ones own righteousness, Verses submitting themselves to God's righteousness?

The next verse gives a hint:[SUP]4[/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The ones going about to establish their own righteousness are those who believe they are saved by works, by keeping the law of Moses. If you say your own works and goodness and ability to obey the commandments and to keep the law are what saves you, then you are going about trying establish your own righteousness. But the scriptures say just the opposite. Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.

[SUP]8[/SUP] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9[/SUP] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Your righteous ability to obey the law and the rules is your own righteousness, not God's. God's righteousness is to have total faith in the Lord's love and care for you and forgiveness for your sins without doing any works to deserve it.

 

[Elin]

No verse says the Holy Spirit 'raises to eternal life' those with a dead faith only.

Agreed. . .

 

[SeaBass]

if you stopped here you would be alright, your problem is, you do not stop here, you making people work to earn a wage (salvation)

It takes faith to work for a company (if you do not have faith in a company, you would not even apply to work there) if they let you. then you do the work after you start. You do not do work, then get into the company.

Same with salvation, it takes faith to save you (be allowed in) once your in, you do the work.

....and that old straw man makes another appearance.
Is your best argument that you can put forth is to put words in my mouth that I have never said?


Obeying God's will does not earn salvation but are a necessary condition that are a part of God's free gift of salvation. Your refusal to understand that does not make me wrong.

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

God commanded Noah to build an ark to the saving of his house and Noah obeyed. According to you, Noah's work in obeying God earn the saving of his house and it was not of grace.

 

[Elin]

Setting the word of God against itself proves ipso facto that one does not understand it, for God does not contradict himself in his word written.

It is in the bible where people are told to save themselves, save thyself, cleanse yourselves, etc.

You did not explain it away for I just looked and it is still in the bible where men have been told to save yourselves, save thyself, cleanse yourselves, etc.

Previously addressed. . .above.

 

[Elin]

It is still not possible for one to be a runner that has never ran or for one to be a smoker that has never smoked

Agreed. . .

or for one to be a slave to righteousness who has never done any righteousness.

But it is possible for you to fail to see the difference between the natural and the spiritual.

 

[SeaBass]

Its not a straw man, it is the truth.

If you do work to earn something, you are doing self righteous works.

if your doing work because you were given something, then you are doing works of faith.

Your under the first example. your tryingn to earn salvation by self righteous works. not working because you were saved.

It is a straw man telling lies when I have shown from Rom 10:3 over and over that one doing his OWN righteousness does not save but submitting/obeying GOD'S will is what saves.

Other than trotting that straw man out, you have no other valid argument.

 

[notuptome]

A man PHYSICALLY dead cannot do anything but men that are dead SPIRITUALLY can do something. Peter's audience in Acts 2 were lost, spiritually dead. But they were able to listen and understand Peter's sermon that it pricked them in the heart prompting them to ask what they must do. Peter gave these 'dead' men the command to repent and be baptized and those that did had their sins remitted and added to the church.

Still you do not understand. Men do not come to God except they be drawn. The Holy Spirit must draw them through the word of God. The entrance of Gods word bringeth light. John 3:18 that light cause those who are lost to turn away but those who are saved are drawn to the light who is Christ.

It is God moving and quickening those who are lost. Without the Holy Spirit dead men cannot come to Christ. It was the Holy Spirit that pricked the hearts of the hearers of Peters sermon.

The Comforter given as Christ left this world works to bring men to a saving knowledge of Christ. All the work for salvation is complete in Christ. Nothing left to do but receive.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

you act as if someone who was

1. Saved by God (shown and experienced his true love)
2. Perfected by God
3. Being sanctified by God
4. Given all the glorious blessings in Christ jesus.

would ever deny him.

the only way I can fathom why you would make such a claim, is you have not experienced any of the above, if you have, you would never make such claims.

Some here are saying God will save, perfect, sanctify those that deny Him. That one does not have to do the work of confessing Christ for God will go ahead and save, perfect and sanctify those that deny Christ.