When does the rapture occur?
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LOL. It amazes me. You take the clear words of Christ and ignore them. Christ was asked specifically about His coming. He talks about the Trib, tells us the Trib ends, then immediately after His sign appears and he returns. You act like the wedding parable destroys the clear teaching. Christ does not conflict with His own teachings.
How about maybe, you got the meaning of the Wedding parable wrong? So either Christ misled us or you got the meaning of a parable wrong. I know which way I'm going on this.
You act as if a wedding must take place before a war and cannot take place after a war.
Are these people part of the Bride?
Zech 13:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Did they go through a war?
How about maybe, you got the meaning of the Wedding parable wrong? So either Christ misled us or you got the meaning of a parable wrong. I know which way I'm going on this.
You act as if a wedding must take place before a war and cannot take place after a war.
Are these people part of the Bride?
Zech 13:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Did they go through a war?
I've explained this to you a dozen times. Sorry you don't comprehend it. If you look at the context, the Lord has already discussed His return by the time He talks about the one taken, one left behind. He isn't referring back to a rapture return that He never mentions. The only return He ever mentions is His Second Coming because it is the only return He makes. Christ never discusses an earlier return. You will find no passage locating any return of Christ before the Tribulation. Doesn't that bother you even a smidge?
Correction, the Lord appeared to Saul on the Damascus Road, clarifying that an appearing does not constitute a COMING.
1 Corinthians 15:8 (RSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Titus 2:11-13 (NJB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] You see, God's grace has been revealed to save the whole human race;
[SUP]12 [/SUP] it has taught us that we should give up everything contrary to true religion and all our worldly passions; we must be self-restrained and live upright and religious lives in this present world,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] waiting in hope for the blessing which will come with the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:8 (RSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Titus 2:11-13 (NJB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] You see, God's grace has been revealed to save the whole human race;
[SUP]12 [/SUP] it has taught us that we should give up everything contrary to true religion and all our worldly passions; we must be self-restrained and live upright and religious lives in this present world,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] waiting in hope for the blessing which will come with the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus.
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Thank you, you are proving our pre-trib point,
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Then comes:
Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Then comes:
Revelation 13:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] One of his heads appeared to be fatally wounded, but his fatal wound was healed.
The whole earth was amazed and followed the beast.
- - - - - - ☝Then comes:
Revelation 19:20-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Only Exception is 144,000 Jews sealed on their foreheads, to be kept from harm.
Yes, two thirds are to be killed in a war, followed by famine, and followed by disease, in the mid-east a few years before his Second Coming (most likely nukes fired by enemies of Israel), which we discussed on this thread: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...escribe-coming-nuclear-war-3.html#post1951284 AND then the Two Witnesses come onto the scene, converting the Remaining Jews in Israel to believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Most of them become Martyred Saints of the Tribulation, but 144,000 of them are sealed from harm to their mortal bodies with GOD's seal on the foreheads. Why? To repopulate ISRAEL and continue the EVERLASTING COVENANT of giving the offspring of Jacob the possession of the land of Canaan.
Here is a passage from Rev 14, which is located after the return of Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
Oops, looks like there are living Christians on the earth who still die even after Christ returns.
Then there is Ezek 44 which also discusses dead and living during Christ's earthly reign. In fact, we still have marriage happening.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]No priest shall drink wine when he enters the inner court. [SUP]22 [/SUP]They shall not take as wife a widow or a divorced woman, but take virgins of the descendants of the house of Israel, or widows of priests.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“They shall not defile themselves by coming near a dead person. Only for father or mother, for son or daughter, for brother or unmarried sister may they defile themselves.
But wait you say, in the resurrection, there are to be no marriages because after the resurrection, we are to have bodies like the angels:
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
So how can this be? I know the answer. It's all about timing. You have to put the right passages with the right passages. You pre-tribbers mix them up and get them out of order. I'll explain...
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
Oops, looks like there are living Christians on the earth who still die even after Christ returns.
Then there is Ezek 44 which also discusses dead and living during Christ's earthly reign. In fact, we still have marriage happening.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]No priest shall drink wine when he enters the inner court. [SUP]22 [/SUP]They shall not take as wife a widow or a divorced woman, but take virgins of the descendants of the house of Israel, or widows of priests.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“They shall not defile themselves by coming near a dead person. Only for father or mother, for son or daughter, for brother or unmarried sister may they defile themselves.
But wait you say, in the resurrection, there are to be no marriages because after the resurrection, we are to have bodies like the angels:
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
So how can this be? I know the answer. It's all about timing. You have to put the right passages with the right passages. You pre-tribbers mix them up and get them out of order. I'll explain...
LOL. You are putting the wrong passages together my friend. Do you want to know where your rapture belongs???? I'm dying to tell you. These passages describe the same event and it solves your BRIDE issue.
Rev 21:
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
1 Thes 4:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
The Lord Himself in 1 Thes 4:16 is the same God Himself in Rev 21:3. You have the rapture some 1,000 years too early. The rapture and resurrection happen on the very LAST DAY and it involves all dead, including those who die during the millennium.
Rev 21:
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
1 Thes 4:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
The Lord Himself in 1 Thes 4:16 is the same God Himself in Rev 21:3. You have the rapture some 1,000 years too early. The rapture and resurrection happen on the very LAST DAY and it involves all dead, including those who die during the millennium.
Popeye,
I am persuaded that the rapture must occur before the seventh seal is opened.
However, I believe that Mt 24:37-42
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
KJV
refers to the second coming and NOT the rapture. Verse 39 clearly indicates that those taken are taken to judgement and destruction.
I think this truth is consistent with both views.
I concur with that. So, when does He appear? He appears before He comes which is also after the Tribulation:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...
I know this is difficult for some to see the order, so I have highlighted it for you above.
1) After the Tribulation
2) The Sign of the Son of Man will appear in HEAVEN
3) The Son of Man will come
AFTER
APPEAR
COMING
Can you sorta maybe see the order????
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...
I know this is difficult for some to see the order, so I have highlighted it for you above.
1) After the Tribulation
2) The Sign of the Son of Man will appear in HEAVEN
3) The Son of Man will come
AFTER
APPEAR
COMING
Can you sorta maybe see the order????
I want to applaud you Marc. You almost have it perfect. I think we need to define the Rapture. The timing of the Rapture is after all the big bone of contention.
What happens during the Rapture?
Which part of the God Head is coming?
Is the resurrection part of the Rapture?
Are the Living believers transformed then also?
Does the Judgment then occur?
What happens during the Rapture?
Which part of the God Head is coming?
Is the resurrection part of the Rapture?
Are the Living believers transformed then also?
Does the Judgment then occur?
P
luke 17;
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
There is no way to transpose this on to postrib/postflood/postsodomdestroyed.
Absolutely no way
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
There is no way to transpose this on to postrib/postflood/postsodomdestroyed.
Absolutely no way
P
I concur with that. So, when does He appear? He appears before He comes which is also after the Tribulation:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...
I know this is difficult for some to see the order, so I have highlighted it for you above.
1) After the Tribulation
2) The Sign of the Son of Man will appear in HEAVEN
3) The Son of Man will come
AFTER
APPEAR
COMING
Can you sorta maybe see the order????
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...
I know this is difficult for some to see the order, so I have highlighted it for you above.
1) After the Tribulation
2) The Sign of the Son of Man will appear in HEAVEN
3) The Son of Man will come
AFTER
APPEAR
COMING
Can you sorta maybe see the order????
G
Indeed! You have made a very good point, here...
For those of you who think Revelation [ prophecy ] is written in "straight-through chronological order" -- Revelation 19 seems to indicate that the 'marriage of the Lamb' takes place after the 'judgment of the great whore' - which happens when? during the Great Tribulation? at the end of the Great Tribulation?
For those of you who think Revelation [ prophecy ] is written in "straight-through chronological order" -- Revelation 19 seems to indicate that the 'marriage of the Lamb' takes place after the 'judgment of the great whore' - which happens when? during the Great Tribulation? at the end of the Great Tribulation?