Ah, it is refreshing to see someone who knows the Truth, and abides in what the words of God say is true. Good posts! Keep up the good work.
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Ah, it is refreshing to see someone who knows the Truth, and abides in what the words of God say is true. Good posts! Keep up the good work.
O
oldthennew
Guest
God's grace is abounding in Love, limitless, ever-expanding - but, according to the many examples in scripture
His 'patience' IS limited.
so many of us forget the basic principle that if you 'sow to the flesh', you shall reap corruption.'
but, if we sow to the Spirit, then we shall reap ever-lasting-life.'
as it is written;
I come quickly and My reward is with Me'.
His 'patience' IS limited.
so many of us forget the basic principle that if you 'sow to the flesh', you shall reap corruption.'
but, if we sow to the Spirit, then we shall reap ever-lasting-life.'
as it is written;
I come quickly and My reward is with Me'.
My short answer is ask Jesus. That's who I get my doctrine from. Just read the New Testament through from front to back like you would a novel. The end includes Revelation 22:14-16 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Earlier we read in Revelation 21:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
We learn what sins are abominations deserving of death from reading the Law. Nothing has changed about those. God still hates sin, abominations even more. Liars who won't stop lying will be excluded from eternal life too.
None of us can "be good enough". All of us can stop being defilers by repenting of sin one sin at a time, overcoming all that the Lord wants removed from us. If we meet God's terms of the gospel of Christ, then he makes up the difference between our moral deficit and his holiness by imputing righteousness to each believer, according to the grace he determined to impute in the beginning. He puts it on those who please him through faith. God will not give grace to sinners who insist on living in their sin, refusing to repent. It isn't impossible to do when done his way, by help of the Spirit, through faith.
Paul explained that taking the attitude that since we were washed in the blood of Jesus, God doesn't see any more of our sins is false doctrine. God isn't going to generate more grace to keep up with the demands of our continual sin choices. We are supposed to be dead to sin, at least taking on a hatred of sins we know about. If we stay in love with pet sins, then we don't love the way of God, and heve no reason to expect to share eternal glory with holy God.
God loves you. He sent Jesus to empty his life out on the cross so he could be filled up with our sin. He will gladly take it for you. You must come to his cross, repenting of sin, trusting him like those snake bite victims had to trust in the serpent on the pole. (Num 21 ref by Jn 3:14) Once there we share in his rising from death to new life, immune to the sting of death. From there each believer must take up our own cross, sharing in his reproach, sharing his gospel.
People sold out to sin can't do any of that. Sinners can only keep sinning, what they do best. Do you carry your cross wherever you go? Or would those who know you truthfully say you are a hypocrite? If you are not repenting, overcoming sin, then you have no witness, just a useless stick dragging behind you.
Many people claim to be Christian, but because of shame of continual sin, dare not identify so obviously with Jesus. When repenting, the Lord takes away the shame, replaces that with confidence, makes us free to do his work.
The world isn't impressed with believers that are no different from them. They need to see an overcomer., not someone trying to be "good". If they see one, they will seek Jesus through that witness.
I know a man that is a Christian now, who murdered his wife in 1989. Fortunately he has repented of murder as far as I can tell. Should he resume liking that sin many more times while believing in Jesus, do you suppose God will understand and let him eat of the tree of life? Can he resume that as a habit since God won't limit grace over him?
I don't find support in scriptures for that scenario.
God's grace is his attitude expressed in his plan of salvation according to the gospel of Christ. He has laid it all out quite simply, easily understood. His attitude is to be willing to forgive a person's sin upon believing and obeying him, according to the price he paid for us. He only paid it once.
Hello Jay3009,
It would be worth your while looking up all references to the word 'torment' or 'tormented', and to 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28), considering just what is spoken or written? Concerning whom? To whom? With what words? At what time? Where? To what intent? With what circumstance? Considering what goes before and what follows.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
While being murdered unjustly on the cross and by stoning both Jesus and Stephen prayed for the people to be FORGIVEN for they know not what they do.........
David murdered Uriah and was forgiven during a time frame when the LAW DEMANDED DEATH...yet is was the SON of DAVID, an innocent child that paid the price......
Cain murdered Abel and was told by God that sin was at the door desiring him and that he must master over it....Cain said he could not be forgiven, although he could have been forgiven...he chose to reject confession and forgiveness...
SAUL (Paul murdered who knows how many believers.....He was too forgiven!
Just a few point to ponder!
You seem to be implying God's Grace is not consistent in a believers life and he only gives us his grace until we SIN, and then GOD yanks it away until we repent and then rinse and repeat all through life.
What you seem to be advocating is works based righteousness and salvation and God's grace is solely based on what we do and not his unmerited favor which is simply his love for us while we were still sinners.
B
BradC
Guest
I understand what you are saying about God's attitude toward the believer and in giving grace, but I would like to know how you understand the grace of God in the following context...
Rom 5:20,21
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
God sent his Son at an appointed time when sin was reigning unto death through the law. There was much transgression of the law because of the deceitful heart within man and the self righteousness associated with keeping the law. The law could do nothing to correct this human dilemma of depravity. This was rampant among the Jews and with the Gentiles, who knew very little concerning the law. Jesus was the only one who could condemn sin in his own flesh for all had sinned. There was no debating as to what had to be done within the framework of the Trinity. God's Son had to be the sacrificial lamb and through him all sin had to be judged and put away.
This was the beginning of grace abounding much more toward sinful man. Every time that man failed in keeping the law and violated his own conscience from doing good, grace HAD TO ABOUND MUCH MORE (superabundantly) toward the sinner. God was not looking for repentance, he was initiating his own goodness toward the wicked, his enemies who were alienated from him, living in unbelief and total rebellion. God was looking for sinful man in his worst state to respond to His grace and goodness through his Son. It is the same for us after we believe. We must always be in a place to receive grace no matter what we have done or what place we find ourselves in. It is always going to be this way toward all people because we are under grace and not the law.
Many will think that some understand grace in the wrong way and put conditions upon it as far as man goes. If God put conditions on grace as some of you think, then He would have never sent his Son. If people were going to live in sin and unbelief after Christ's death, burial and resurrection, why go through all that. It is not the law that gets sinners to repent, it is the goodness of God. The law gives you nothing but condemnation but the goodness of God gives you grace and truth. Grace and mercy is multiplied toward us through Jesus Christ.
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There is no limit to God's grace. We can limit it toward us by our own insincerity, but He doesn't want it that way. It is His righteous judgment to hold back from people that distort His Word, or use Christ Jesus as an excuse to change God, therefore taking His "name" in vain. He doesn't give His grace to those who take advantage of it by making God different via a selfish doctrinal interest with a different agenda other than God's.
There can be no proper understanding of those two verses taken out of the general context. Attempting that will always result in false doctrine. That is proved in the continuation of Paul's lesson. Keep in mind the chapter change is a tool added to the word of God, which had no chapters. It was all one continuous scroll.
So let's take in a little more context, leaving out chapter and verse numbering.
Romans 5:20-21, 6:1-18 (KJV)
"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.[SUP] [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
Now I ask you to explain 5:20-21 in light of that much of the whole, which is far more than posted there I'll answer that.
You seem to have just contradicted yourself. Not anything you posted here says what you have been telling people in previous posts, it says just the opposite. You do not work for the grace of God or salvation. Yet you seem to think we do.
God is not rinse and repeat and appease. H never changes and neither do his attributes, toward the believer or towards the unbeliever. His grace is consistenet and not waivering, like you try to state.
My Daughter went to church with some friends last night and had no idea it was a WOF church, until the guest speaker got up and began preaching what you did in your previous posts.
He told people if they sinned anytime during the day, God's grace vanished from them and they need to weep and confess repentance verses to get the grace back. He then forced everyone to do it, because we have all sinned and fell short, at which time my daughter left.
You guys are too much, always workin for yer grace and workin fer yer salvation and not found in the Bible anywhere, but evvery where in Ole Dad's books. It aint anything YOU do, bro! Its everything he DID.
You are proving grace is limited.
God reserves the right to keep a person from having it applied.
"we" can limit grace by our own insincerity.
Abusers of the word who seek to change God by false teaching can be denied grace.
Let's add "unbelief" to that list.
Add to that a lifestyle like the apostle Judas Iscariot.
Again, Jesus didn't preach "grace", but did emphasize repentance from sin. That was prerequisite number one, in order of importance. Later came belief in his gospel, which took years for the apostles to learn. By preaching his commandment to "Repent" we ought to understand that grace is in fact conditional. Grace is not forgiveness. Because of grace God forgives those who repent. Grace goes beyond that, making those who repent bear the righteousness of God in Christ. If bearing that righteousness, which none of us deserves, then we will obey the scriptures and reckon ourselves dead to sin, walking in the light as Jesus walked.
God extends grace to those who believe and obey, definitely reserved for those who repent of sin however often he requires it. He can't extend favor to deliberate sinners who refuse to acknowledge sin is separating them from God. So as a believer in good standing with God you will walk in his light, departing from sin a day at a time, overcoming your sins because the grace of God makes that possible. Without grace we couldn't repent and have his righteousness imputed even though we don't deserve it.
The Bible is very clear that God won't tolerate retention of known sins, refusing to repent. If you won't repent, you will perish. Jesus dying on the cross made the way clear to repent and believe unto eternal life, overcoming sin.
To make God a winker at retained sins in us is abomination. Some say he doesn't see our sins if we are washed in the blood of Jesus. However, it's blasphemous to abuse his blood as a shield to resume our old sins. God's grace has never been available for deliberate and habitual sin to be excused. Grace applies only for obedience to the commands of Jesus, to come to him at the cross for starters. Jesus died once for sin, will not die again to provide more blood, or afford more grace to cover accumulated unforgiven sins. His grace is not like the blood of animals shed every year, covering sins for a year. His grace is his determined plan of salvation in Christ.
Notice that in the instructions for the original "Passover" in Exodus the lamb's blood was painted over and around the door, but not the threshold. For us Americans that means the part of a door you walk over is the threshold.
Exodus 12:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
The blood shall not be trampled.
Exodus 12:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
The blood shall not be trampled.
B
BradC
Guest
Show us how the woman at the well in (John 4) and the woman taken in adultery repented in (John 8) or even the woman that came to Simon's house in (Luke 7) repented of their sin? They were all know sinners and one even caught in the very act. What did Jesus do? Did he tell any of them to repent? Telling the adulterous woman to go and sin no more was not telling her to repent or even repentance on her part, but it sure was grace on his part when he sent her accusers away and told her that he did not condemn her. The women he met at the well was with another man after having (5) previous husbands and being alone with her never mentioned anything about repentance but only drew her to partake of the water of life that he could give. The woman that came to him with the ointment Simon's house and kissed his feet, her sins were many but they were all forgiven with no indication she had repented, she only came to him, wept and ministered to him. You can say she was sorry for her sins, but she came to him to minister to the Lord.
Can you show me anywhere in scripture where any of the disciples he had called to walk with him ever repented of their sin? Just use the twelve and see if you can find any repentance or confession of sin on their part. Even when Peter cursed and denied the Lord three times can you find where he repented of these things. Did our Lord, who was full of grace and truth, ever relinquish himself from ministering grace to sinners that he was always found befriending? Was the man with the infirmity of 38 years healed by our Lord because he had repented? According to (John 5:14) he was searched out by the Lord and told to sin no more less a worse thing come upon him.
Show me which of the two debtors in (Luke 7:40-43) were able to repent and pay their debt or were they simply forgiven of the debt without payment? Were these creditors sorry for their debt or where they unable to pay it? Are you under the persuasion and are you trying to tell us that God does not give grace and forgive without repentance? If we have to pay for our debt of sin in order to receive grace and be forgiven, then Christ died in vain and may I ask just who is trampling the blood of Christ and doing despite to the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:29)? To sin willfully after you have received the knowledge of the truth (Christ sacrifice for sins) pertains to those who have rejected that sacrifice, they are the ones who are sinning willfully and who trodden the blood of the covenant under their feet deeming it an unholy thing.
What do you think of this...
Heb 10:8-13
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.