Justification by Works

[SeaBass]

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works,
he had something to boast about -- but not before God.
(Romans 4:2)
​

so who is James talking about being justified before, if James & Paul have the same gospel?

James 2 is speaking of obedient works Abraham did in obeying God's will in offering Isaac.

The works of Rom 4:2 that does not justify are the works of trying to keep the law perfectly thereby merit salvation. Rom 4:4 Abraham was one who "worketh not" > he did not work to try and keep the law perfectly to merit salvation for he sinned yet he had obedient works (offering Isaac) by which he was justified.

 

[SeaBass]

That's twisted theology.

Christians are NEW creatures in Christ. They now seek to please God. What works they do have become works generated by their new hearts. It's a new normal, the natural byproduct of salvation and the renewed mind.

Eph 2:10 is not 'twisted theology' but is a verse that proves works are a requirement for those who are Christians. Christians have no choice but to do good works or be lost, Mt 25 thereby making works a necessary/essential part of the Christian's life or else be lost.

 

[tribesman]

The answer is in the same post.

No. There is no answer to my question to you in those scriptures. In fact, these verses speak against your idea of doing works of righteousness while still being unrighteous before God. Since going about to establish one's own righteousness is nothing but filthy rags before Him. It is unbelief and without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb.11:6). The unsaved are NOT by any inch pleasing God. You need to understand that what Paul said in that scripture was in denouncing his pre-conversion false religion pharisaism (which he counted as dung and according to whom he was blameless, he was NOT blameless before God at that time).

Isa.64

[6] But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Rom.10

[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[tribesman]

Eph 2:10 is talking about works one does after he has been justified. Yet he cannot remain justified if he does not do those good works God has "before ordained" of EPh 2:10. Therefore Eph 2:9 cannot eliminate ALL works of all categories for "not of works" of verse 9 cannot eliminate the good works those that have been justified are required to do.

Justification is apart from the works of man. Works follows as a fruit of justification, not to prove to God that you are righteous, but to bring honor and glory to Him for salvation and for the good uses of serving your brethren and neighbor, to be a salt and light in this wicked old world. So far, scripture. Do you see justification as an ongoing process? If so, how you can reconcile that with the NT epistles seems pretty far stretched.

 

[SeaBass]

Justification is apart from the works of man. Works follows as a fruit of justification, not to prove to God that you are righteous, but to bring honor and glory to Him for salvation and for the good uses of serving your brethren and neighbor, to be a salt and light in this wicked old world. So far, scripture. Do you see justification as an ongoing process? If so, how you can reconcile that with the NT epistles seems pretty far stretched.

No verse says man is justified by "no works". James said both Abraham and Rahab were justified by their works.


My point about Eph 2:10 is about those ALREADY justified. Those who have ALREADY been justified MUST do good works that God has "before ordained" the ALREADY justified are to walk in. Therefore if one who is ALREADY justified does NOT walk in those good works per Eph 2:10 he will not remain justified but judged to be lost, Mt 25:31-46. This means the Christian's good works are a necessity for the Christian to remain justified/saved.

 

[tribesman]

No verse says man is justified by "no works". James said both Abraham and Rahab were justified by their works.


My point about Eph 2:10 is about those ALREADY justified. Those who have ALREADY been justified MUST do good works that God has "before ordained" the ALREADY justified are to walk in. Therefore if one who is ALREADY justified does NOT walk in those good works per Eph 2:10 he will not remain justified but judged to be lost, Mt 25:31-46. This means the Christian's good works are a necessity for the Christian to remain justified/saved.

Romans 4:5 speaks of those who do not work, but trust God who justifies the ungodly. Ephesians 2 speaks of those who are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins but whom yet are quickened by God, saving them out of their death unto life in Christ Jesus. For sure works follows for those already justified. Abraham and Rahab believed God and their works proved that faith to their fellow men. These works however follows not as a necessity (or condition) to maintain justification, they follow as a fruit of same. It is this fact that you until now cannot take in, and that is because of your rationalist tradition, which is in conflict with scripture on this wise. Your tradition confuses fruit with condition!

 

[BradC]

No verse says man is justified by "no works". James said both Abraham and Rahab were justified by their works.


My point about Eph 2:10 is about those ALREADY justified. Those who have ALREADY been justified MUST do good works that God has "before ordained" the ALREADY justified are to walk in. Therefore if one who is ALREADY justified does NOT walk in those good works per Eph 2:10 he will not remain justified but judged to be lost, Mt 25:31-46. This means the Christian's good works are a necessity for the Christian to remain justified/saved.

You mean Rehab the harlot. The Holy Spirit calls her Rehab the harlot, so don't leave off the harlot part. She is the only person named Rehab recorded in scripture.

When a sinner is justified by grace and the blood of Christ, it is apart from themselves that this justification has taken place. The means of justification is within the work of Christ on the cross where all our sin and sins were crucified, laying the ground work for a complete and satisfactory justification that can only be appropriated by faith in believing in that work. It can not be appropriated by any other means because it took place apart from sinful man. The sinner can not earn it, buy it, claim it through self righteousness or work for it by being good and doing those things that are pleasing to God. Justification is not open ended but rather a completed act with a period and exclamation mark.

The sinner should marvel at their justification that God provided through his Son Jesus Christ and the cross. It is a 'finished work' justification and when a sinful man is justified by faith the Son declares him righteous before the Father. The Father receives that declaration and places the justified sinner in Christ. Nothing can touch that justification that has located the sinner in a place of rest through the eternal redemption that is in Christ. The justified sinner is sealed until the day of redemption in this place of eternal rest in Christ. No man can pluck that justified sinner from the hand of the Son or the Father. Every time that justified sinner fails or sins because of the flesh, they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and he declares the one who failed as justified and can not be brought into any condemnation for his sin.

 

[Hoffco]

You might want to read the 11th Chapter of Hebrews to see this clearly.............he was JUSTIFIED because of his FAITH.

Sorry, you need to LEARN to read. Heb.11 is all about the obedience of faith, showing that Faith without works is dead, it can not save. The Work of Faith is absolutely need for salvation. The GRACE of God, of Eph. 2:1-10, makes us a new,changed, holy person to obey God, this is regeneration and only one verse there,v. 6 , speaks of justification. Please put the whole teaching of the whole Bible together, before you make up your doctrine. Then you would not make stupid statements about losing salvation. God elects, saves and keeps His Sheep. Love to all,
Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

God never justifies a non regenerated person. The new life, new birth comes first ; Must be, because we are born dead in sin , DEAD men don't come to God for eternal life. This is what Jh.3 teaches, only alive sinners can come to Jesus. Jh. 3:21, "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." Only born again persons to good deeds and receive Jesus. Love Hoffco

 

[FancyNancy]

Eph 2:10 is talking about works one does after he has been justified. Yet he cannot remain justified if he does not do those good works God has "before ordained" of EPh 2:10. Therefore Eph 2:9 cannot eliminate ALL works of all categories for "not of works" of verse 9 cannot eliminate the good works those that have been justified are required to do.

We are justified by faith. That's a done deal. Our works are the natural outflow of our new nature. We cannot lose it.

 

[SeaBass]

Romans 4:5 speaks of those who do not work, but trust God who justifies the ungodly.

Paul said in Rom 4:1-5 Abraham was one who "worketh not" but Abraham DID DO WORKS Heb 11:8,17. This is not a contradiction for "worketh not" refers to working to keep the law perfectly in order to merit salvation. Abraham did not try to perfectly keep the law to merit his salvation so Abraham "workth not" to perfectly keep the law to merit his salvation. Yet Abraham DID have an obedient faith in doing works in obeying God's will per Heb 11:8,17 and it was by these obedient works Abraham was justified.

Ephesians 2 speaks of those who are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins but whom yet are quickened by God, saving them out of their death unto life in Christ Jesus. For sure works follows for those already justified. Abraham and Rahab believed God and their works proved that faith to their fellow men. These works however follows not as a necessity (or condition) to maintain justification, they follow as a fruit of same. It is this fact that you until now cannot take in, and that is because of your rationalist tradition, which is in conflict with scripture on this wise. Your tradition confuses fruit with condition!

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The 'we' in verse 10 refers to Christians, those "in Christ Jesus", those who are ALREADY justified and for those who are ALREADY justified must do good works if they are to remain justified/remain in Christ Jesus.

No good works done by the Christian = will be judged to be lost Mt 25:31-46.

So you are incorrect in saying "these works however follows not as a necessity (or condition) to maintain justification..."

God made doing these good works a condition, a necessity for the Christian..God "BEFORE ORDAINED" Christians to walk in good works.

No faith only advocate can ever undo the necessary works God BEFORE ORDAINED Christians must do, no matter how hard they try to undo it.

 

[FancyNancy]

Paul said in Rom 4:1-5 Abraham was one who "worketh not" but Abraham DID DO WORKS Heb 11:8,17. This is not a contradiction for "worketh not" refers to working to keep the law perfectly in order to merit salvation. Abraham did not try to perfectly keep the law to merit his salvation so Abraham "workth not" to perfectly keep the law to merit his salvation. Yet Abraham DID have an obedient faith in doing works in obeying God's will per Heb 11:8,17 and it was by these obedient works Abraham was justified.



Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The 'we' in verse 10 refers to Christians, those "in Christ Jesus", those who are ALREADY justified and for those who are ALREADY justified must do good works if they are to remain justified/remain in Christ Jesus.

No good works done by the Christian = will be judged to be lost Mt 25:31-46.

So you are incorrect in saying "these works however follows not as a necessity (or condition) to maintain justification..."

God made doing these good works a condition, a necessity for the Christian..God "BEFORE ORDAINED" Christians to walk in good works.

No faith only advocate can ever undo the necessary works God BEFORE ORDAINED Christians must do, no matter how hard they try to undo it.

The only MUST is to follow Jesus daily and allow Him to influence us concerning our works. Even if you decide to do a good deed on your own, if Holy Spirit didn't tell you to do it, then you could be walking in disobedience.

The only works we do are those inspired by Him, and not wrought from our own flesh. Those who insist that we MUST DO are people who strive and will soon burn out due to all the striving. Holy Spirit works in us to do and to be. We do not have to strive.

 

[SeaBass]

You mean Rehab the harlot. The Holy Spirit calls her Rehab the harlot, so don't leave off the harlot part. She is the only person named Rehab recorded in scripture.

When a sinner is justified by grace and the blood of Christ, it is apart from themselves that this justification has taken place. The means of justification is within the work of Christ on the cross where all our sin and sins were crucified, laying the ground work for a complete and satisfactory justification that can only be appropriated by faith in believing in that work. It can not be appropriated by any other means because it took place apart from sinful man. The sinner can not earn it, buy it, claim it through self righteousness or work for it by being good and doing those things that are pleasing to God. Justification is not open ended but rather a completed act with a period and exclamation mark.

The sinner should marvel at their justification that God provided through his Son Jesus Christ and the cross. It is a 'finished work' justification and when a sinful man is justified by faith the Son declares him righteous before the Father. The Father receives that declaration and places the justified sinner in Christ. Nothing can touch that justification that has located the sinner in a place of rest through the eternal redemption that is in Christ. The justified sinner is sealed until the day of redemption in this place of eternal rest in Christ. No man can pluck that justified sinner from the hand of the Son or the Father. Every time that justified sinner fails or sins because of the flesh, they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and he declares the one who failed as justified and can not be brought into any condemnation for his sin.

Yes Rahab was a harlot. Rom 4:5 says God justifieth the ungodly. Rahab was an ungodly person, a harlot that was justified. Was Rahab justified by doing no works/faith only? NO! She was an ungodly person who was justified by her obedient works. No ungodly person can ever be justified by faith only/sitting and doing nothing.


You posted "When a sinner is justified by grace and the blood of Christ, it is apart from themselves that this justification has taken place."

Why would ungodly sinner "A" be justified by grace and the blood of Christ and be saved while sinner "B" is not and therefore lost? Is it randomness that "A" was justified by grace and the blood of Christ and "B" was not? Is it some "unknown reason" that sinner "A" was justified while sinner "B" was not? No, God does not leave man in the dark on this issue for God's word clearly says sinner "A" would be justified by his obedient works while sinner "B" was not justified for his lack of obedient works in doing God's will.

So Rahab was a ungodly sinner, a harlot that was NOT justified randomly, NOT justified for some unknown reason, NOT justified by faith only/no works but WAS justified by her obedient works.

And if the sinner who has been justified by his obedient works does not continue in doing good works, then he will be lost, Mt 25:31-46; Eph 2:10.

 

[FancyNancy]

Yes Rahab was a harlot. Rom 4:5 says God justifieth the ungodly. Rahab was an ungodly person, a harlot that was justified. Was Rahab justified by doing no works/faith only? NO! She was an ungodly person who was justified by her obedient works. N ungodly person can ever be justified by faith only/sitting and doing nothing.


You posted "When a sinner is justified by grace and the blood of Christ, it is apart from themselves that this justification has taken place."

Why would ungodly sinner "A" be justified by grace and the blood of Christ and be saved while sinner "B" is not and therefore lost? Is it randomness that "A" was justified by grace and the blood of Christ and "B" was not? Is it some "unknown reason" that sinner "A" was justified while sinner "B" was not? No, God does not leave man in the dark on this issue for God's word clearly says sinner "A" would be justified by his obedient works while sinner "B" was not justified for his lack of obedient works in doing God's will.

So Rahab was a ungodly sinner, a harlot that was NOT justified randomly, NOT justified for some unknown reason, NOT justified by faith only/no works but WAS justified by her obedient works.

And if the sinner who has been justified by his obedient works does not continue in doing good works, then he will be lost, Mt 25:31-46; Eph 2:10.

This is all spoken out of a false teaching about grace and justification---it is salvation by performance, which doesn't exist. You do not understand how a man is transformed by grace through faith to become a new man, whose works are the new natural outflow of that faith. Not ONE single person can do any works that are acceptable in God's sight (you know, they are filthy rags according to Him!) apart from the works we do that are inspired by Holy Spirit.

You appear to be in need of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which will take care of that problem of your misunderstanding about works.

 

[SeaBass]

We are justified by faith. That's a done deal. Our works are the natural outflow of our new nature. We cannot lose it.

I agree, we are justified by FAITH and NOT justified by FAITH ALONE, James 2:24.

Faith and faith alone are not the same things. Faith is a living, working and viable while faith alone is dead.


A Christians whose faith does not continue in doing good works will be lost.

 

[FancyNancy]

I agree, we are justified by FAITH and NOT justified by FAITH ALONE, James 2:24.

Faith and faith alone are not the same things. Faith is a living, working and viable while faith alone is dead.

You really do not have the answers, I see.

 

[SeaBass]

You really do not have the answers, I see.

Faith only advocates do not have an answer, cannot find a way to get around the fact Christians must do good works or be lost.

 

[SeaBass]

The only MUST is to follow Jesus daily and allow Him to influence us concerning our works. Even if you decide to do a good deed on your own, if Holy Spirit didn't tell you to do it, then you could be walking in disobedience.

The only works we do are those inspired by Him, and not wrought from our own flesh. Those who insist that we MUST DO are people who strive and will soon burn out due to all the striving. Holy Spirit works in us to do and to be. We do not have to strive.

Yes, hearing and following Jesus is a work the Christian must CONTINUALLY do for if he quits, he no longer qualifies as one of Christ's sheep Jn 10:27 and will be lost. Jesus said MY SHEEP hear and follow Me. So if a Christian quits hearing and following Christ then he no longer qualifies as one of Christ's sheep. It is up to the Christian to decide if he will continue or not continue to hear and follow Christ.

 

[Sirk]

Faith only advocates do not have an answer, cannot find a way to get around the fact Christians must do good works or be lost.

Works only advocates do not have an answer that works are a symptom of a personal, growing relationship with Jesus Christ.
A person who murders becomes one who saves etc. It's like this....you go to Jesus...He fills your cup to overflowing and He gets the credit..not you .

In your view....you fill your own cup and then take the credit for your "good works". When it all washes out you will have already had your reward.

 

[FancyNancy]

Faith only advocates do not have an answer, cannot find a way to get around the fact Christians must do good works or be lost.

Sorry, Seabass, but you are arguing with God. Not a wise choice.

We only must do the works of Christ because He is living and working within us to do them. But you appear to be advocating for mustering up all sorts of good works to stay saved. That is not of God. That is your fleshly religious thinking at work and you cannot be cramming that down our throats. It is a lie.