Belief is not a work. A believer never loses His salvation. He can lose out in fellowship with God in disobedience, but he is still an adopted chiold of God and part of His family. God doesn't renege on His fatherhood.
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Belief is not a work. A believer never loses His salvation. He can lose out in fellowship with God in disobedience, but he is still an adopted chiold of God and part of His family. God doesn't renege on His fatherhood.
Sorry, but when James said Abraham and Rahab were justified by works, that is not a "false teaching about grace and justification'. It is the man-made teaching of faith only that is the false teaching for it says the very exact opposite of what God's word says.
God's word: justified by works.
Faith only: not justified by works.
I will follow God's word.
There is not one single verse that says "Not ONE single person can do any works that are acceptable in God's sight" for this is the erroneous philosophy of faith only.
Faith only says: "Not ONE single person can do any works that are acceptable in God's sight"
God's word says: "Thou meetest(helps) him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness" Isa 64:5 and "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Acts 10:35.
So faith only erroneously says no works are acceptable in God's sight and God's word says those the WORKETH righteousness are accepted with God.
Do you see how the man-made teaching of faith only says the very exact opposite of what God's word says?
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One cannot have a relationship with Christ at all WITHOUT DOING/OBEYING what Christ said to do, Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
I never said I take credit for my good works, that is a straw man that is made up for a lack of a valid counter argument. What I am saying is that Eph 2:10 and Mt 25:31-46 makes it IMPOSSIBLE for one to become a Christian and be saved while NOT doing any good works. This is a bible truth the faith only advocates cannot handle.
I am arguing with those that hold to the man-made faith only doctrine trying them to hold to God's word instead.
Do you not understand or just refuse to understand Eph 2:10 and Mt 25:31-46 that if the Christian does NOT do good works he cannot remain saved?
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Sirk
Guest
Jesus Himself called believing a work in John 6:27-29.
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Jn 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." Note how the one that "believeth" is CONTRASTED to the one who "obeyeth not" implying that belieiving is a form of obedience, something done, a work.
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Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:"
Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together.."
Who were the ones in verse 44 that "believed" ? The ones that received Peter's words and baptized or the ones that rejected his words and not baptized? Obvioulsy the ones that "believed" in verse 44 are the ones that accepted Peter's word and were baptized so we have the word "believed" in Acts 2:44 being used as a synechdoche where "believed" includes having been baptized. SO belief is a work, an form of obedience that would include the works or repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism else it is dead being alone.
If one is not in fellowship with God, then one is lost. There is no such thing as being out of fellowship with God but still saved.
How typical. Jesus said that the work of believing is GOD'S WORK!
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Jesus was saying that those who believe obey. Those who do not obey are not believers.
You do not understand God's grace. You need a revelation in that area, like so many others. All sin hinders our fellowship with God, but it doesn't negate the fact that we are blood-bought and adopted into the family of God.
Your works-for-salvation gospel is a crock. You preach self-righteousness, rather than the fact that we are hidden with Christ in God and that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us. Keep studying!!
A
Arvir
Guest
We must do what Christ says because he is Lord.
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great." Luke 6:46-49
No, it is not a lie that we should do good works to be saved.
"And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Revelation 3:1-6
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Arvir
Guest
I request for evidence that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us. What I know is that his blood cleanses our sin. But about righteousness, this is what I know:
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." 1 John 3:7
So we throw out Romans, Galatians, Ephesians etc., for a passage written to a Church as a whole (not an individual) which never states we must work to be saved?
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
(Gal 3:10)
How much 'works' must we do until we are saved?
For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
(Rom 4:3-6)
Satisfied?
2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Romans 4:5-8
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romans 4:19-25
And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. [SUP]20 [/SUP]He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [SUP]23 [/SUP]Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, [SUP]25 [/SUP]who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Our sin is imputed to Him, while His righteousness is imputed to us. The truth of all this is that NO sins will show up on one;s account past the point of being declared righteous!
A
Arvir
Guest
The reason why I quoted that passage is because Jesus said that they should be watchful, because he has not found their works perfect. Then he said, Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. Therefore, they should do, and unless they do, he will come upon them as a thief.
Here is another passage:
Luke 10:25-28
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
There is a difference between the works of the law, and the works by which faith is made perfect. The letter to the Galatians refer to this law:
"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." Galatians 3:17
What is this covenant, this law that was 430 years after?
"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." Galatians 4:21-31
And these works of the law include Circumcision, but not works whereby faith is made perfect. And, "in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." Galatians 5:6
It's not different types of works, it's different types of justification. In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In the Bible the word "justified" is often used in the "legal" (judicial) sense. Paul often uses the word "justified" in this "legal" sense (Romans 3:24,28; 5:1; 5:9; 8:30 etc..). The word justified is also used in a "declarative sense." James has this aspect of justification in mind. As we have seen, his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is why James says I will SHOW you my faith by my works.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.
James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous?" James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God? (Romans 4:2-3). The harmony of "saved through faith, not works" (Paul) and "justified by works and not by faith only" (James) is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
This is the same argument that Roman Catholics use as well in a vain effort to teach that we are saved by works. Trying to merit ones salvation would includes good works, which are a part of the moral aspect of the law. In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works, works of obedience, works of righteousness could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). This is the moral aspect of the law. Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? See how your "distinction" between "works" and "obedient works" falls apart and is not supported by scripture? The Bible nowhere teaches that we are "saved by" works/works of obedience/works of righteousness. To the contrary we find - (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
Obedient works are good works which are not detached from the moral aspect of the law found in the two great commandments and we are not saved by works, but through faith. It's that simple.
Failing to obey the will of God by looking to the Son and believing in Him leaves one's faith dead and unable to save (John 6:40).
Faith made perfect or completed by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."
Abraham was already justified by faith when he believed the Lord and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) many years before he obeyed the Lord in Genesis 22. If Abraham would have refused to sacrifice Isaac, he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but that was not the case.
Whoops! Left out the word NOT. Failing to obey the will of God by NOT looking to the Son and believing in Him leaves one's faith dead and unable to save (John 6:40).
You add "keep the law perfectly", it is not in the text. Abraham had knowledge of God's law and did indeed keep same (Gen.26:5), not to become justified thereby, but because he believed God (and was already justified by that faith in Him).
Since you obviously believe that it is the work of man which makes the difference between his salvation and damnation, then it must be that, according to your view, the gospel is nothing but a mere helper, to facilitate man's efforts to work a little better to save himself. You obviously believe this because you do not believe that natural man is dead in his trespasses and sins, totally unable to initiate a right standing with God, through his efforts of any kind of works being pleasing to God. You think that a regenerated man can lose his salvation or go in and out of his salvation pending his own work. These are your far fetched conclusions which aren't scriptural and therefore have been refuted nigh to innumerable times here at CC.
Again, you add something, now the word "condition", to the text. There is a difference between doing good works as a fruit of having been justified than to do good works in order to become justified or maintain justification. The motivation in each case is as far as west is from the east. Apparently you have not yet seen this. Where you say that works follows as a necessary condition, scriptures says a necessary fruit. God has ordained that His children should bear fruit, and this cannot be thwarted or hindered or frustrated. It WILL happen. But when it happens it does not happen to fulfill any certain "condition", it happens as a fruit of a natural process. A good tree (planted by God) WILL bear good fruit.
To avoid steering the discussion into overly repeating of circular reasoning it is fit to remind what crossnote correctly said:
There is a difference between applying the reality of being justified before all-knowing God and man, since the former needs no proof of anyone being justified. Our neighbor however need this. This is how "faith wrought...with works". Yes, faith without the fruit it carries with it, including works, is dead. But works without faith is also dead! If not faith is present in man no amount of his efforts of working will make it right unless saving, God-given, faith is involved. So the foundation of all good works is faith, faith in God, belief in the gospel, obedience to the gospel, which is the good news of salvation conditioned solely on the atoning blood and the imputed righteousness of Christ alone. Where this is not found, all efforts of working before God are but filthy rags bearing fruit unto death.
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Works salvationists do not have an answer and cannot find a way to get around the fact that Christians have been and remain saved by grace through faith and NOT BY WORKS. It isn't must do good works to become a Christian but will do good works if you are a Christian. Faith and faith "that trusts in Christ alone" for salvation is the same thing. "Empty profession of faith that produces no works" (James 2:14) is not the same and is not the kind of faith that we (Christians) are claiming saves. What a genuine believer means by salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE (Ephesians 2:8,9) and what James means by "faith only" (empty profession of faith that is barren of works) is not the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. Ephesians 2:10 says that we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works that we SHOULD walk in them, not must or else. Doing good works is not forced or legalistic for genuine Christians. You have made it crystal what you are trusting in for salvation and your faith is NOT in "Christ alone" for salvation but is in WORKS. You still need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel.
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