When does the rapture occur?
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Please read the below, then I have a question for you.
...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Let's say you see someone like the Son of Man coming in the sky with great power then next thing you know a spiritual being is with you telling you that you are being taken to Him. Do you think, "Hmm, maybe I was wrong, there was no pre-Trib Rapture, just the Second Coming?" Do you then go with the angels sent to gather?
...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Let's say you see someone like the Son of Man coming in the sky with great power then next thing you know a spiritual being is with you telling you that you are being taken to Him. Do you think, "Hmm, maybe I was wrong, there was no pre-Trib Rapture, just the Second Coming?" Do you then go with the angels sent to gather?
Are you saying that this is invisible?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
You have a shout, voice of an archangel and the Trumpet of God and this is supposed to be a secret, invisible event?
So we have a silent shout, a silent voice and a silent trumpet? This seems to be what you are saying. (Of course we totally disagree when the above happens but that's a separate matter, right now I just want to figure out why so many think the Pre Trib Rapture based on the above is some secret, quiet event)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
You have a shout, voice of an archangel and the Trumpet of God and this is supposed to be a secret, invisible event?
So we have a silent shout, a silent voice and a silent trumpet? This seems to be what you are saying. (Of course we totally disagree when the above happens but that's a separate matter, right now I just want to figure out why so many think the Pre Trib Rapture based on the above is some secret, quiet event)
I would like a passage that agrees with your assessment of the ELECT too. Please provide one. I think the only reason you believe this about the ELECT is because any other view would destroy your Pre-Trib Rapture belief. So what we have is a false belief which requires another false belief, then another and then another. One little lie by Darby and soon the church has completely obliterated the prophetic Word of God.
Nope. I don't want to go out with you that do. 
But then again, your teaching is an involuntary snatching away which is only based on being a child of God and not based on belief of a timing. Are you now teaching otherwise?
But then again, your teaching is an involuntary snatching away which is only based on being a child of God and not based on belief of a timing. Are you now teaching otherwise?
Correct, but my understanding of what makes one a genuine Child of GOD, is MUCH narrower than most think. It is as Narrow as the Narrow GATE itself. I also believe that EVERYONE that came through the Wide GATE, thinks they are on the Road to Heaven, when in reality it is the Road to Destruction. What Destruction?:
Matthew 10:28 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Unbelievers are NOT EVEN MENTIONED in the Parable of the GATES. That Narrow GATE involves letting the Holy Spirit come into your heart, to bring genuine conviction of sinfulness and to pour the LOVE of GOD into you heart. That action that is purely of the HOLY SPIRIT causes your Human Spirit to be birthed into Eternal Life, puts faith in your heart, causing a deep desire to confess sin and repent of sin; and a deep Love for Jesus Christ that willingly wants to surrender and receive HIM as LORD, which means submitting to HIM as Master. WE DO NOT GET PAT OURSELVES ON THE BACK FOR ANY OF IT, it is purely a WORK of the HOLY SPIRIT.
Anything less than that is NOT becoming a genuine Child of GOD, it is just acknowledging who JESUS is, like the Demons in the two men that came out of the Caves (tombs) at Gadara.
Matthew 8:28 (ASV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, there met him two possessed with demons, coming forth out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man could pass by that way.
Mark 5:6-7 (YLT)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And, having seen Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed before him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and having called with a loud voice, he said, `What--to me and to thee, Jesus, Son of God the Most High? I adjure thee by God, mayest thou not afflict me!'
Bowing before Jesus Christ and recognizing WHO HE IS, does NOT make one a Child of GOD.
Mark 5:9-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “What is your name?” He asked him. “My name is Legion,” he answered Him, “because we are many.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And he kept begging Him not to send them out of the region.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now a large herd of pigs was there, feeding on the hillside.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The demons begged Him, “Send us to the pigs, so we may enter them.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And He gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs, and the herd of about 2,000 rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned there.
There were 2000 demons in those two men, and they bowed before JESUS and Called HIM who HE actually was: Jesus, Son of God the Most High. That did not make those Demons genuine Children of GOD, nor does the FALSE GOSPEL of easy believism make any one else a genuine Child of GOD.
Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
You need to prove your claims!
Every mention of the catching away of the saints supports the understanding that no one will see it. What the world will see is the return of Jesus Christ to the earth, along with His saints! The world will try to destroy Him in His coming, but He will destroy all who come against Him.
Matthew 24 is a summation of the beginning church age through the Second Coming of Christ. Verse 29 speaks about the latter part of the tribulation period just before the appearing of our Lord. Verse 30 picks up with Christ visibly coming with the Saints of God who have already been raptured prior to the beginning of the tribulation period. Revelation 19:14 describes this great event:
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
This is a consistent Biblical description of the Saints (Zechariah 14:5; I Thessalonians 3:13; 4:14; Jude 1:14; Revelation 4:4).
It’s also generally believed by most Bible scholars that the rapture will happen as a thief in the night (I Thessalonians 5:1-4) or someone who comes unannounced and steals something away during the night. Certainly, the rapture will take the world by surprise, but after it occurs, will cause great panic the next day. But no where does it allude to anyone visibly seeing Jesus, this thief in the night, in the clouds. Matthew 24:30 couldn't possibly be talking about the rapture because the "tribes of the earth [will] mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven". This is not consistent with any of the scriptural descriptions of the rapture.
Read further here:
Matthew 24:29-31 Explained, revelation rapture, signs of the rapture, what is the rapture, rapture 2010?, when will the rapture happen?
.
Every mention of the catching away of the saints supports the understanding that no one will see it. What the world will see is the return of Jesus Christ to the earth, along with His saints! The world will try to destroy Him in His coming, but He will destroy all who come against Him.
Matthew 24 is a summation of the beginning church age through the Second Coming of Christ. Verse 29 speaks about the latter part of the tribulation period just before the appearing of our Lord. Verse 30 picks up with Christ visibly coming with the Saints of God who have already been raptured prior to the beginning of the tribulation period. Revelation 19:14 describes this great event:
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
This is a consistent Biblical description of the Saints (Zechariah 14:5; I Thessalonians 3:13; 4:14; Jude 1:14; Revelation 4:4).
It’s also generally believed by most Bible scholars that the rapture will happen as a thief in the night (I Thessalonians 5:1-4) or someone who comes unannounced and steals something away during the night. Certainly, the rapture will take the world by surprise, but after it occurs, will cause great panic the next day. But no where does it allude to anyone visibly seeing Jesus, this thief in the night, in the clouds. Matthew 24:30 couldn't possibly be talking about the rapture because the "tribes of the earth [will] mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven". This is not consistent with any of the scriptural descriptions of the rapture.
Read further here:
Matthew 24:29-31 Explained, revelation rapture, signs of the rapture, what is the rapture, rapture 2010?, when will the rapture happen?
.
PlainWord, I love ya, but I showed you numerous times and you closed your eyes tightly shut, and poked your fingers in your ears, and started scoffing every time.
We have Great JOY and LOVE in our beliefs, what is your beliefs producing?
Can you even see that same Great JOY and LOVE in this video by our Sister in Christ, in Kenya?
[video=youtube;6yqpGH-dQpM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yqpGH-dQpM[/video]
Our new Dwelling Place is the New Jerusalem in heaven, He has built for us His Bride. We watch for our Bridegroom, HE IS COMING!
We have Great JOY and LOVE in our beliefs, what is your beliefs producing?
Can you even see that same Great JOY and LOVE in this video by our Sister in Christ, in Kenya?
[video=youtube;6yqpGH-dQpM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yqpGH-dQpM[/video]
Our new Dwelling Place is the New Jerusalem in heaven, He has built for us His Bride. We watch for our Bridegroom, HE IS COMING!
Let's try a different tact. I believe the Word of God teaches that Satan is cast out of heaven, sent to earth and that he attempts to deceive (and succeeds with many) the Christian world. I believe Satan tries to make Christians think he is Christ come to take them. Here are actual passages that support this:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So what does Satan do when he is thrown out of heaven?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.
So, what is represented by the "Springs of Water?" How about the Word of God?
Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word...
How has Satan made the word of God bitter? Does he get people to twist the truth, make things up? Does he have a pattern of taking God's Word and twisting it?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The above are not Jews. Jews don't believe in Jesus Christ. So, what happens in the world when these "Springs of Water" are tainted? We are the Light of the World, right?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
So 1/3 of the Light of the World is dimmed. That's roughly 733 million Christians killed. We see them as the Great Multitude in Heaven.
Are we warned about this deception? You betcha, repeatedly. Christ warns us in Mat 24 and Paul warns us in 2 Thes 2:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...
Christ will not return until the Man of Sin is revealed and until the church falls away from the deception.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So what does Satan do when he is thrown out of heaven?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.
So, what is represented by the "Springs of Water?" How about the Word of God?
Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word...
How has Satan made the word of God bitter? Does he get people to twist the truth, make things up? Does he have a pattern of taking God's Word and twisting it?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The above are not Jews. Jews don't believe in Jesus Christ. So, what happens in the world when these "Springs of Water" are tainted? We are the Light of the World, right?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
So 1/3 of the Light of the World is dimmed. That's roughly 733 million Christians killed. We see them as the Great Multitude in Heaven.
Are we warned about this deception? You betcha, repeatedly. Christ warns us in Mat 24 and Paul warns us in 2 Thes 2:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...
Christ will not return until the Man of Sin is revealed and until the church falls away from the deception.
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G
I have a question now. If believers(Church) are going to go through the tribulation and the horror of all that wrath, why were the Thessalonian believers worried that their loved ones that had already died, would miss it? Death for their loved ones should have been a relief to them........they would have been spared the suffering,pain and misery, the likes of which the world has never seen.