When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

peace in the wrath being poured out? Millions of bodies everywhere? peace? SAFETY?

Wow you need to take another look at the non peace,non safety of the gt.

(the confusion will not relent in your camp while ramming and cramming 2 events into one.)

Think about it,you are depicting peace and safety during the wrath of God!!!!!

Do you know who those are that are saying, "peace and safety?" It is the Muslim world. It is the Harlot; their false religion ISLAM. This is the saying of the Harlot when the Wrath of God is poured out upon her:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

Muslims think by killing all the Jews and Christians that they could find that they will have peace and safety. They think if they force the world to worship their idols that they will bring peace to the earth. Sudden destruction will come upon them after the Tribulation when God has His revenge. Make sense?

 

[TMS]

It seem like this thread "When does the rapture occur", has come down to Post-Tribulation verses Pre-Tribulation. Many verses in the word can be read both ways if you presume the meaning is what you have already decided.

Stop presuming and take the verses that are certain as guide posts to keep you on the right track.
Like fense posts in a straight line the bible dosent controdict itself.

Explain these verses
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, …(Die)
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep (dead).
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It said that the living and the dead get their crowns on the same day and that day is when Jesus comes.
Is that post or pre trib?

 

[VCO]

...and where in any of the quoted scripture is a pre-trib timing given? Which passage destroys a post-trib wedding? You and Popeye are off the road and out of gas. The janitor has gone home early for the day. . Christ can mirror the Jewish Wedding Traditions all He wants and it still doesn't give you a pre-trib timing.

Revelation 3:10-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Thessalonians 2:7-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He {the Holy Spirit} who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. {The Holy Spirit Has to be Taken out of the way, so that Antichrist can come to full power. With the HOLY SPIRIT going somewhere other than being here on earth, WE HAVE TO GO WITH HIM, because Christ said HE (THE HOLY SPIRIT) would be with us FOREVER. HENCE the Pre-trib Calling Out of the Bride is mandatory, because the Holy Spirit's presence here on Earth in the Hearts of all Truly Born Again Believers; prevents Antichrist from coming to FULL POWER.}
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

John 14:15-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. {NOTE: Verse 16 and 18 are proof that the Spirit in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, along with the Father, are a TRIUNE SINGULAR DIVINE SPIRIT.}


Frankly PlainWord, I really do not care anymore if you do not believe us. THAT IS WHAT WE BELIEVE WITH OUR WHOLE HEARTS and those verses and the others that I have shown you, are why we believe it is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

 

[VCO]

It seem like this thread "When does the rapture occur", has come down to Post-Tribulation verses Pre-Tribulation. Many verses in the word can be read both ways if you presume the meaning is what you have already decided.

Stop presuming and take the verses that are certain as guide posts to keep you on the right track.
Like fense posts in a straight line the bible dosent controdict itself.

Explain these verses
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, …(Die)
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep (dead).
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It said that the living and the dead get their crowns on the same day and that day is when Jesus comes.
Is that post or pre trib?

The Son of Man appears outside of the Earth (the old dwelling place of the Bride) as a flash across the sky like lightning. He sends the Archangel ahead to blow the Shofar of GOD and calls out the Bride with a SHOUT, just like every Traditional Jewish Wedding in history. The Bridegroom is NOT ALLOWED TO SET FOOT in the old dwelling place of the bride when she is Called Out to go to His Father's House. That is where a Traditional Jewish Wedding is always held and it is where the Wedding Chamber has been Built by the Bridegroom. The Wedding is a week long Ceremony, and I believe the 70th Week of Daniel (a Week of YEARS), is also the Wedding of the Lamb, and also the Reign of the Antichrist that includes the Great Tribulation. At the END of that Week of YEARS, Christ comes back as KING of Kings to reclaim the Earth and set up His Earthly Kingdom reigning for 1000 Years from the Throne of David. Then comes the Judgement Day, followed by the Eternal State, in which we live on a NEW EARTH with a NEW ATMOSPHERE.

In a traditional Jewish Wedding, NOT EVERYONE was invited to the Wedding Ceremony.

Matthew 22:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For many are called, but few are chosen."

However, everyone was invited to the Wedding Supper (or Suppers) at the end of the Ceremony. Frequently there would more than one Wedding Supper, because back then it was very difficult for people to travel great distances for a WEDDING. So if there were three or four Communities with Relatives in them, and none were close to the others, the Bride and Groom would do the travelling after the Wedding Ceremony to Celebrate a Wedding Supper with each group of relatives.

If you want more details, you are welcome to wade through all 148 pages.
Why the 180 degree differences on this subject?
I suspect one of the primary reasons could be the difference between Born Again and Not Yet Born Again.
Why do I say that?
Because it is the born again experience that brings our Human Spirit to eternal life via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, establishing a genuine inner personal LOVE relationship with HIM as our LORD and our BRIDEGROOM. Prior to that we can know a great deal about HIM and the Bible, but it is all head knowledge, and not Heart Knowledge of genuinely KNOWING HIM.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[GaryA]

...the Judgment Seat of Christ (The Bema Seat---you can research that)...

I have researched that. What I discovered was that the 'Bema Seat' Judgment and the 'Great White Throne' Judgment are one and the same. ( i.e. - there is only one Judgment, not two )

Question:

When do the people who are saved during the Great Tribulation and the 1000-year reign of Christ experience their 'Bema Seat' Judgment?

 

[GaryA]

{The Holy Spirit Has to be Taken out of the way, so that Antichrist can come to full power. With the HOLY SPIRIT going somewhere other than being here on earth, WE HAVE TO GO WITH HIM, because Christ said HE (THE HOLY SPIRIT) would be with us FOREVER. HENCE the Pre-trib Calling Out of the Bride is mandatory, because the Holy Spirit's presence here on Earth in the Hearts of all Truly Born Again Believers; prevents Antichrist from coming to FULL POWER.}

The other option being --- the absolute majority of all the Christians on Earth are killed...

 

[GaryA]

All of the above happens post-trib.

A lot more than you realize happens post-trib.

 

[PlainWord]

All believers are killed by the AC DURING the gt.

Therefore postrib RAPTURE is impossible.

That is an absolute lie. Where are you getting such nonsense? The ELECT are not killed. They are gathered when Christ returns after the Tribulation.

 

[FancyNancy]

A lot more than you realize happens post-trib.

I have no problem with that, being familiar with all that God tells us about it.

 

[GaryA]

Both those verses depict the second coming of Christ to Earth.

Who is being gathered together by the angels in verse 31?

 

[FancyNancy]

I have researched that. What I discovered was that the 'Bema Seat' Judgment and the 'Great White Throne' Judgment are one and the same. ( i.e. - there is only one Judgment, not two )

Question:

When do the people who are saved during the Great Tribulation and the 1000-year reign of Christ experience their 'Bema Seat' Judgment?

Keep studying! The GWT judgment is for sinners, while the Bema Seat judgment is for all believers. There is no Bema Seat judgment for later converts from during the Tribulation. Those people are taken care of at the onset of the Millennial Reign when Jesus returns, and that is referred to in scripture as The Sheep and The Goats judgment.

Happy studying!

 

[PlainWord]

It seem like this thread "When does the rapture occur", has come down to Post-Tribulation verses Pre-Tribulation. Many verses in the word can be read both ways if you presume the meaning is what you have already decided.

Stop presuming and take the verses that are certain as guide posts to keep you on the right track.
Like fense posts in a straight line the bible dosent controdict itself.

Explain these verses
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, …(Die)
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep (dead).
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It said that the living and the dead get their crowns on the same day and that day is when Jesus comes.
Is that post or pre trib?

It is definitely post trib. Look up John 6:40, 44, 54. All point to the resurrection being on the last day.

 

[flob]

I have researched that. What I discovered was that the 'Bema Seat' Judgment and the 'Great White Throne' Judgment are one and the same. ( i.e. - there is only one Judgment, not two )

I'm not usurping you Nancy. I just wanted to add my two cents, and take a stab at answering these : )
To the contrary: God's family is different and separate from all other people and things.
Judgment begins at the house of God...
Also these two particular judgments are separated by 1000 years (Rev 20; Jn 5).

When do the people who are saved during the Great Tribulation and the 1000-year reign of Christ experience their 'Bema Seat' Judgment?

I don't doubt Nancy will have a different answer.
Mine is there are no people born anew during the Tribulation. Since that option is taken away.
Except all surviving Israel at the end, when they see Him whom they have pierced and He rescues them, both physically
and spiritually. Of course, as all brand new believers, God's converted nation (Dan 9:24; Zech 11--14; Rom 11), these ones have and need no judgment seat..


Gary has got me curious. What odd sect is teaching him? Catholicism? I'm curious.

The Sheep and The Goats judgment.

This third judgment I take as being of the surviving nations from the Tribulation. Judged on how they took care of Christ----
in the form of His people. And for whether they remain as the nations during the Millenium..............or not.

 

[GaryA]

All believers are killed by the AC DURING the gt.

Therefore postrib RAPTURE is impossible.

That is an absolute lie. Where are you getting such nonsense? The ELECT are not killed. They are gathered when Christ returns after the Tribulation.

Actually, PlainWord, his first statement is closer to the truth. His second statement, of course, is nowhere near the truth...

( It is 100% entirely possible for [ the absolute majority of ] all Christians to be killed during the Great Tribulation, and yet there still be a rapture. I will try to find time to explain this later. )

 

[GaryA]

Keep studying! The GWT judgment is for sinners, while the Bema Seat judgment is for all believers. { Guess again... } There is no Bema Seat judgment for later converts from during the Tribulation. { Why would this be? God is no respector of persons - remember? And, if there were another Judgment as you suggest in the next sentence, why wouldn't all believers be at that Judgment? } Those people are taken care of at the onset of the Millennial Reign when Jesus returns, and that is referred to in scripture as The Sheep and The Goats judgment. { Which is also known as the 'Great White Throne' Judgment. }

Happy studying!

Revelation 20:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [SUP]12[/SUP] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [SUP]13[/SUP] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [SUP]14[/SUP] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [SUP]15[/SUP] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


If this judgment is only for 'sinners' - why does verse 15 imply that there will be some that will not be cast into the lake of fire?

Happy studying!

 

[GaryA]

**** BUMP ****



Nancy:

Who is being gathered together by the angels in verse 31?

 

[PlainWord]

Revelation 3:10-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

What makes you think that "keep you from" the hour of trial equates to being snatched alive off the planet, transformed and taken to heaven? The text doesn't say that. There is another passage that states just the opposite, from the same author!!!

John 17:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

My, my, same author praying that they are not to be taken from the world but merely kept from the evil one.

Do you see a rapture in this verse too?


1 John 5:21

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Again, same author. Does one need to be snatched off the planet to be kept from idols? This is what John is talking about - False god Worship of the Man of Sin. How about here?

Jude 1:24

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

There are lots of passages that deal with us being kept from sin, to be strong against sin and to reject the things of the world. Christians are tested (tempted) every day.

Acts 15:29

that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Acts 5:38
And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing.

Proverbs 6:24
To keep you from the evil woman, From the flattering tongue of a seductress.

Ezra 6:6

Now therefore, Tattenai, governor of the region beyond the River, and Shethar-Boznai, and your companions the Persians who are beyond the River, keep yourselves far from there.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel saying, “Oh, that You would bless me indeed, and enlarge my territory, that Your hand would be with me, and that You would keep me from evil, that I may not cause pain!” So God granted him what he requested.

Exodus 23:7

Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.

These are just some of the many passages that tell us to "keep from" a particular sin or evil. Just in these above passages we are told to "keep from:"

FALSE MATTER(S)
EVIL
THE LAND OF PERSIANS
EVIL (AGAIN)
THINGS OFFERED TO IDOLS
BLOOD
THINGS STRANGLED
SEXUAL IMMORALITY
EVIL WOMEN
FLATTERING WOMEN
(PLANS) OF MEN
STUMBLING
IDOLS (AGAIN)
THE EVIL ONE
HOUR OF TRIAL (Belongs here too)

Since we are "being" kept from the above list - WITHOUT being raptured - why can't we be KEPT FROM the Hour of Trial WITHOUT being raptured? The below verse is completely consistent with all the above verses. There is no hint of a rapture in any of these passages. Yet, you leap to a rapture for the below passage. WHY? Because you have to don't you? You need something to lean on to support an unsupported pre-trib timing and the below verse is absolutely critical to your view. Therefore you read into it, as you do your other so-called pre-trib timing verses.

Revelation 3:10

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world...

 

[GaryA]

Gary has got me curious. What odd sect is teaching him? Catholicism? I'm curious.

Not an odd sect. Baptist. ( all my life )

As I said before, I was taught the pre-trib deception while growing up. However, through personal Bible Study, I discovered the truth and discerned the error...

 

[PlainWord]

Actually, PlainWord, his first statement is closer to the truth. His second statement, of course, is nowhere near the truth...

( It is 100% entirely possible for [ the absolute majority of ] all Christians to be killed during the Great Tribulation, and yet there still be a rapture. I will try to find time to explain this later. )

I do not share the view that all Christians are killed during the Great Tribulation. In fact, I think the evidence shows that only 1/3 of Christians worldwide are killed. Here are some examples of Christians still on earth the moment Christ returns (however, more die after Christ returns too):

Mat 24: [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Unless the ELECT are dead?

Luke 21: [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” - This one is really clear!!

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”We are commanded to watch for the Second Coming. - We can't watch if we are all dead.

Rev 14: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” - Christ is back and believers are still dying.

1 Thes 4: [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. - Clearly there are living believers left on earth after the GT and for the SC.

Rev 18: After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. - There is only one "angel" that illuminates the whole earth with His glory and that is Christ. So Christ is on earth, then we have this:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. - We have to be here to "come out of Babylon" before the plagues are unleashed.

Then of course we know that 1/3 of Israel, those who believe in God are still alive from this passage:

Zech 13: [SUP]9 [/SUP]I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

So how do I know only 1/3 of Christians are killed? From this:

Rev 8: [SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

It is a well known Christian concept that we are the light of the world. If this light is reduced by 1/3, then 1/3 of us are killed.

Conversely, when we are returned to earth with all the dead saints who died over thousands of years, what happens?

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

 

[PlainWord]

Ok,I am going to have to require all postribs to re read the wrath part of the GT.

It appears you guys can not discern between life as usual and pple cring out in torment to die.

Stop transposing the 2 into one. Get a basic handle on this concept,then get back to us.

LOL. Let me try to explain.

God's Wrath is not part of the Great Trib. Please read this over and over again until you get it.

The Great Tribulation is Satan's Wrath aimed at everyone, but especially Christians and Jews. He wants as many of us (LIGHT OF THE WORLD) to be extinguished as possible. WHY? So that we can't convict the world and turn them to the truth and true GOD. Remember, once dead and you haven't accepted Christ, Satan has you.

God's Wrath comes AFTER Satan's Wrath and is in direct response to it. Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord!!! Christ returns at the 7th Trumpet. Then the Bowls of wrath are poured out; not on everyone, just on the Beast and his kingdom. The Beast are Muslim nations, Islam is the Harlot. Those crying in torment are Muslims and those who came up against Israel to destroy her. Why do you think Christ separates the Sheep from the Goat nations? The Goats are Islamic and their allies like Russia and possibly China. The Sheep are the mostly Christian nations who supported or at least remained neutral with Israel.

It's all about ISRAEL. Yes, the church plays an important part. It is through jealously that we bring Israel back to their God. Yes we are part of the Bride, but the Jews are an equal part of the Olive Tree and the Bride. There will be no wedding until Israel has been restored to God and the Lamb. Israel is not restored until after the GT.

You basically have to erase all of the false things you've been taught if you want to see the truth. God has not left His chosen people out of His Kingdom. He is using us (the gentile church) and the GT as ways to bring the Jews back to Him. Read Romans 11 if you have any doubt about this.