Does God Hate The Unsaved?

[p_rehbein]

Predestination is: the saved are predestined to be saved. Double predestination is: the unsaved are predestined to be unsaved as well.

The alternative is that the predestination of the saved is based on God's uninfluenced foreknowledge of who will accept Jesus' provision for their sin(s).

We don't disagree often Brother, but I must disagree here. Predestination is BOTH the automatic salvation of some and the automatic damnation of all others. Double predestination is a term used to disguise the Calvinist theory which denies "free will." It's like when people today speak of discrimination, and then try to suggest that there is also REVERSE discrimination. Not true. Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of the "race, creed, sex, National origin" of the one doing the discriminating or the one being discriminated against.

Calvin's Tulip theory both asserts that FROM THE BEGINNING God predetermined who would be saved and who would be condemned. It completely removes ANY responsibility/accountability from man. It declares that God is responsible for both good works of man AND the bad works/sinful works of man. Blaming God for the actions/words of man is something I will never participate in. I suggest folks read the first Chapter of Romans, and then apply Calvin's ideology to those spoken of there. If one does this, then how exactly can a loving and just God BLAME those folks spoken of in that Chapter for ANYTHING? After all, according to Calvin, they were/are simply fulfilling what God predestined them to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God hates NO ONE, He hates sin, not the sinner.

Sending them to hell is not even an act of hate, Because God did not just send them to hell, he offered them the gift of eternal life. by sending his son to die for them, it was them who rejected him, not him who rejected them (he is not going to force people to recieve him) This his true justice must be carried out. inspite of his love.

 

[Gr8grace]

Does God hate us? No. He is Love, He is Life, but He is also Truth. He is holy and righteous and can't abide sin. Does He hate sin, death and the devil and the consequences of sin? Heck, yes! You better believe it. The Bible shows this over and over again. It's pretty simple. Not sure why you feel the need to complicate such things.

I believe it needs to be thoughtfully and carefully weighed out from scripture. If you will notice, some here think God hates some men.

So it is worthy to to be a.......

New American Standard Bible
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

[Gr8grace]

No, it really isn't. I finally got it. You have a different gospel and a different god.

If this is true atwhatcost, then you need to recognize that you have have sinned against God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation. He died for your sins and was raised again for you.

I don't have my fingers crossed behind my back hoping you are not one of the ones that God does hate. I KNOW God loves all persons and all persons can make this choice.

I don't have my fingers crossed behind my back hoping that you will not lose this salvation by some behavior of yours.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

God always used a covering to reveal His Glory. We can't be face to face in His Glory. You know what believers are? We are His covering, we reveal His Glory.

So does God Hate? I would rather live in habitual sin and take the discipline for that, Rather than telling a person that God might hate them.

 

[atwhatcost]

If this is true atwhatcost, then you need to recognize that you have have sinned against God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation. He died for your sins and was raised again for you.

I don't have my fingers crossed behind my back hoping you are not one of the ones that God does hate. I KNOW God loves all persons and all persons can make this choice.

I don't have my fingers crossed behind my back hoping that you will not lose this salvation by some behavior of yours.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

God always used a covering to reveal His Glory. We can't be face to face in His Glory. You know what believers are? We are His covering, we reveal His Glory.

So does God Hate? I would rather live in habitual sin and take the discipline for that, Rather than telling a person that God might hate them.

Well, I'm not really worried about what your god does to me, since he/she/it isn't real. You've been given clear evidence the real God does hate with a fiery passion, and yet prefer to invent a god you can deal with. So, honestly, I'm not worried about your invented god, since he/she/it is as real as the Tooth Fairy.

But, big caution. You might want to open your eyes soon. We don't get to choose a god we can deal with. We need to deal with the one and only God. Stop seeing what you want from a god and start looking at the real God, because you are living in habitual sin by denying the real God.

 

[Gr8grace]

The whole predestination thing or not, is an issue I have never really been able
to make up my mind about I lean about 60/40 towards PD. But I definately
know God knew me and my family before I was born!

Discussions on this remind me of my job, I work for a government law enforcement
department (not the police so no need to worry if you have a guilty conscience that's
between you and God ).

As a case worker I often work through a case where someone is or has been
doing something wrong and investigations are ongoing still.
I can't tell them what I know about them in case it tips them off and they
destroy evidence.

They know what they have been doing, but are not certain if I know but hope
I don't.

So often during conversations this little game is played out where:

I know what they are up to.
They know what they are up to.
I know, they don't know that I know and I'm not gonna tell um.
They think I might know what they know, but hope I don't know and
try to find out what I know, but won't say what they know in case I don't know.
But I know they are trying to find out what I know and as far as they know,
i know nothing.

I think the PD discussions tend to go along similar lines!

Predestination and election are for believers only. We are not predestined or elected to believe.

When we believe, we are predestined to be conformed to His image and elected to be Heirs of God.

One can use your job as an example. You were not predestined to do a particular case. But once you take a particular case, you are predestined for what is in that particular case.

 

[p_rehbein]

Predestination and election are for believers only. We are not predestined or elected to believe.

When we believe, we are predestined to be conformed to His image and elected to be Heirs of God.

One can use your job as an example. You were not predestined to do a particular case. But once you take a particular case, you are predestined for what is in that particular case.

And this "predestined" you speak of is what Sanctification is all about. The preparation of a believer by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit for the service of God.

If I am reading your comments correctly as you are stating them.

 

[Gr8grace]

Well, I'm not really worried about what your god does to me, since he/she/it isn't real. You've been given clear evidence the real God does hate with a fiery passion, and yet prefer to invent a god you can deal with. So, honestly, I'm not worried about your invented god, since he/she/it is as real as the Tooth Fairy.

But, big caution. You might want to open your eyes soon. We don't get to choose a god we can deal with. We need to deal with the one and only God. Stop seeing what you want from a god and start looking at the real God, because you are living in habitual sin by denying the real God.

God is Just and righteous. And He deals with people and problems In His perfect righteousness and perfect Justice.

In His Sovereignty, He choose to deal with mankind through His Justice. And His Justice was satisfied on the Cross, in His Son.

So mankind goes through His Justice/righteousness(Christ) for salvation, not His sovereignty.

Rom 1:17~~English Standard Version
For in it(salvation/Gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Psalm 99:4~~New American Standard Bible
The strength(sovereignty) of the King loves justice(Christ); You have established equity(all men can believe and be saved); You have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob(Israel).

 

[Gr8grace]

And this "predestined" you speak of is what Sanctification is all about. The preparation of a believer by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit for the service of God.

If I am reading your comments correctly as you are stating them.

Yes, that is our experiential sanctification in this life. We are perfectly sanctified in our position in Christ.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

The Bible Study Room has talked several hours on whether God hates sinners. It is controversial enough that people get very heated in this conversation.

Those who say that God hates sinners refer to these Scriptures:
Ps. 5:5 "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Ps. 11:5 "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev 20:23 "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Ps 16:6-9 "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: [SUP]17[/SUP] Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, [SUP]18[/SUP] A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, [SUP]19 [/SUP]A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hos 9:15 "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."


However, we also have other Scriptures that supports the opposite view:

I John 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

My position is that it is unproductive to talk about this issue with seekers, but it keeps getting brought up in the room.

However, before a person can hear the good news, they need to hear the bad news first. The bad news is that the unsaved are children of wrath (Eph 2:3), and are under God's condemnation and wrath (John 3:18,36 ). God is angry with the unsaved (see the definition of wrath), and they need to know that. It's a motivation to seek God's grace...knowing that one is facing impending judgement. Failing to communicate otherwise to them is an incomplete Gospel message.

It's also an incomplete message if the message of Jesus Christ and his love as displayed in sacrificing himself on the Cross isn't conveyed. Our redemption was paid for by him through this sacrifice.

I've seen street preachers focused just on the condemnation and wrath part, and I've seen other people just focused on the love of God part. I think that these two concepts meet together on the Cross, and if a person ignores either part of the message it is an equal error.

The question is on the hate part, though. How does a person explain the hate scriptures above? Hate goes above wrath and condemnation.

For mankind to understand and relate to God, we must look at Jesus Christ.

Show me one time that Jesus ever hated a sinner or anyone he ministered life to?

Did Jesus hate the woman caught in Adultery?
Did Jesus hate the Samaritan woman at the well?
Did Jesus hate those that made the temple a den of thieves?
Did Jesus hate Peter when he denied him?
Did Jesus hate non Jews?

I could go on and on, but I will not.

People need to stop trying to relate to God as God and look to Jesus Christ and how he did things and they will have their answers.

 

[crossnote]

We don't disagree often Brother, but I must disagree here. Predestination is BOTH the automatic salvation of some and the automatic damnation of all others. Double predestination is a term used to disguise the Calvinist theory which denies "free will." It's like when people today speak of discrimination, and then try to suggest that there is also REVERSE discrimination. Not true. Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of the "race, creed, sex, National origin" of the one doing the discriminating or the one being discriminated against.

Calvin's Tulip theory both asserts that FROM THE BEGINNING God predetermined who would be saved and who would be condemned. It completely removes ANY responsibility/accountability from man. It declares that God is responsible for both good works of man AND the bad works/sinful works of man. Blaming God for the actions/words of man is something I will never participate in. I suggest folks read the first Chapter of Romans, and then apply Calvin's ideology to those spoken of there. If one does this, then how exactly can a loving and just God BLAME those folks spoken of in that Chapter for ANYTHING? After all, according to Calvin, they were/are simply fulfilling what God predestined them to do.

There is so much I disagree with in your representation of these views that I don't know where to begin except you really need to read up on them.

 

[Mo0448]

I think the best way to answer this question is by asking it a different way...so let's try it!

Does God Love the Unsaved?

We can look for the answer in the most well known verse in the bible...I'm sure most of us have it memorized if not partially memorized;

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

It doesn't say for God so loved those that would accept Jesus Christ his son...let us look at the term love...

God gave us a choice...to accept or not accept...what better definition of love than providing one a choice...We either accept or turn down his offer of eternal life through his son Jesus Christ. Many will refuse it, but God still loves them, and loves them enough to respect their choice...as crushing as it is I'm sure...

Does that make sense?

 

[MarcR]

We don't disagree often Brother, but I must disagree here. Predestination is BOTH the automatic salvation of some and the automatic damnation of all others. Double predestination is a term used to disguise the Calvinist theory which denies "free will." It's like when people today speak of discrimination, and then try to suggest that there is also REVERSE discrimination. Not true. Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of the "race, creed, sex, National origin" of the one doing the discriminating or the one being discriminated against.

Calvin's Tulip theory both asserts that FROM THE BEGINNING God predetermined who would be saved and who would be condemned. It completely removes ANY responsibility/accountability from man. It declares that God is responsible for both good works of man AND the bad works/sinful works of man. Blaming God for the actions/words of man is something I will never participate in. I suggest folks read the first Chapter of Romans, and then apply Calvin's ideology to those spoken of there. If one does this, then how exactly can a loving and just God BLAME those folks spoken of in that Chapter for ANYTHING? After all, according to Calvin, they were/are simply fulfilling what God predestined them to do.

You are correct from a Calvanist perspective. I am NOT a calvanist! I correctly explained to Tintin how the word was used by Crossnote (with whom I happen to agree).

 

[Gr8grace]

There is so much I disagree with in your representation of these views that I don't know where to begin except you really need to read up on them.

I came out of reformed theology. And He pretty much summed up "my calvinism" in His post. I had just learned to double speak, and hide the crux of what I believed. When someone nailed it like his post, I could always say," Well you just don't understand my calvinism."

I hid it in "soft determinism", "compatiblism","free agency(instead of freewill)" But at the conclusion of "my calvinism." He pretty much sums it up.

 

[crossnote]

I think the best way to answer this question is by asking it a different way...so let's try it!

Does God Love the Unsaved?

We can look for the answer in the most well known verse in the bible...I'm sure most of us have it memorized if not partially memorized;

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

It doesn't say for God so loved those that would accept Jesus Christ his son...let us look at the term love...

God gave us a choice...to accept or not accept...what better definition of love than providing one a choice...We either accept or turn down his offer of eternal life through his son Jesus Christ. Many will refuse it, but God still loves them, and loves them enough to respect their choice...as crushing as it is I'm sure...

Does that make sense?

Because of these...

John 6:44 (NET) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 16:17 (NET) And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!

...as well as Paul's conversion while breathing out death threats against the Church.

God doesn't hate the unsaved but why He favored Israel, why He favors His elect, why He reveals to one yet lets another go their merry way through life etc., can only be explained by His grace and nothing in us.

 

[p_rehbein]

There is so much I disagree with in your representation of these views that I don't know where to begin except you really need to read up on them.

Have been doing so for years, and have been a student of those far more versed than I in Scripture, and will stand by my assertion that I do not accept the ideology of Calvin.

Predestination as presented by Calvin is not Biblical or in keeping with the Gospel of Christ in my opinion, and I will not waiver in that opinion. Now, for those who use "predestination" as a substitute for "Sanctification," well that is different. But it does not validate the concept of double predestination in my opinion.

Those He foreknew, He did predestine..................meaning He placed into being the power to "prepare" those who He foreknew would believe in Him to do His will through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. He did not then, nor does He now FORCE upon anyone this preparation. It is available to all who seek Him and seek to do His will.

 

[p_rehbein]

Because of these...

John 6:44 (NET) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 16:17 (NET) And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!

...as well as Paul's conversion while breathing out death threats against the Church.

God doesn't hate the unsaved but why He favored Israel, why He favors His elect, why He reveals to one yet lets another go their merry way through life etc., can only be explained by His grace and nothing in us.

Except for our "free will" to deny Him that is...................

 

[atwhatcost]

I didn't say predestination hon, I was referring to double predestination.
Scripture definitely speaks in terms of predestination of the elect (Eph 1)
But only man's reason carries it further into uncharted/unbiblical waters of double bubbles

Okay, so I'm a double predestinator. If God predestined some for salvation, it stands to reason he didn't predestine others. And, if that's not proven in Romans 8, it's covered in Romans 9.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because of these...

John 6:44 (NET) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 16:17 (NET) And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!

...as well as Paul's conversion while breathing out death threats against the Church.

God doesn't hate the unsaved but why He favored Israel, why He favors His elect, why He reveals to one yet lets another go their merry way through life etc., can only be explained by His grace and nothing in us.

Did saul not have to chose? Could saul have still rejected? even when Christ confronted him personally?

 

[atwhatcost]

For mankind to understand and relate to God, we must look at Jesus Christ.

Show me one time that Jesus ever hated a sinner or anyone he ministered life to?

Did Jesus hate the woman caught in Adultery?
Did Jesus hate the Samaritan woman at the well?
Did Jesus hate those that made the temple a den of thieves?
Did Jesus hate Peter when he denied him?
Did Jesus hate non Jews?

I could go on and on, but I will not.

People need to stop trying to relate to God as God and look to Jesus Christ and how he did things and they will have their answers.

This was covered on Page one. Assuming you know Jesus is God, here you go:

God is a sinner?

Rom. 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Now, if you don't believe Jesus is God, then we have problems.