Dealing with the idea of Hell

[Jason0047]

The interesting NDEs are the ones where people dont talk about them afterwards, but their lives change drastically. They oddly enough usually have very similar experiences to share when interviewed years later but are reluctant to share them. An interesting book to read on it is aptly titled "near death experiences"

No thanks. I trust in the Bible and the Bible alone for my faith. Not... NDE's.

 

[skylove7]

Not sure what you are saying.

The English word "hell" can be used in reference to the Lake of Fire, Torments (what we call Hell), and a general reference to the abode of the dead (Where both Abraham's Bosom and Torments reside). I believe Jesus' physical body died and that the Spirit portion of Him which is the second person of the Godhead, went down into Abraham's bosom for three days. I also believe he preached to the spirits in prison, too. Jesus then had conquered death and rose from the dead. Jesus paid the price for sin, which was.... death (physically) and not eternal torture in Hell.

I mean, think about it. The Lake of Fire is called the Second Death. This is important to understand because it is related to the first death, i.e. physical death. In other words, you cannot call something the Second Death and not have it related to the first one.

Jason what in the world makes you say...that Jesus preached to souls already on their way to hell?
That is absurd.
Jesus preached to flesh

The only thing I could imagine Jesus saying to a soul onward to hell...is "You shouldnt have been so terrible"

 

[Tankman131]

It is not saying Heaven and Hell in Matthew 25:46. You are saying that. It is contrasting ..... Life with Punishment. For Jesus said,

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It does not make any sense if one has life eternal and the wicked also have life eternal.



I can say the same to you. You believe the way you do because you hold to what the majority of churches teach and they cannot possibly be wrong. You have not kept your mind open like a good Berean and checked out those many, many, many verses on Conditional Immortality. You just want to see what you want to see. The question is, why do you want Hell to be eternal? Do you want to see people suffer forever? Do you want evil to exist forever?

The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ezk. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).
The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1
​

Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.
There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24).
​

Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.

• "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
• "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
• These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reservedforever," (Jude12-13).

Is "forever and ever" without end?
The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

 

[Blain]

It's strange that everyone who has a vision of Hell has a different story to tell. Why doesn't all the facts line up in everyone's stories? See, that is why God wants us to trust in the Bible and not in some vision.

This is why I am turned off against visions like.... Heaven is for real, etc. Most of them are all false because they contradict Scripture.

Heaven is for real is and was a fake and it's fine if you don't believe me it doesn't matter if you do or not

 

[Tankman131]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: carm-table-with-border, width: 201, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]forever and ever

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Eternal - without end[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Eternal Damnation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great whore of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

 

[Tankman131]

Heaven is for real is and was a fake and it's fine if you don't believe me it doesn't matter if you do or not

I dont know what your experience was or if it was true, and i tend to be quite skeptical of NDE's, but Im glad if that brought you to Christ

As i said, God can work in mysterious ways. Although i myself am not entirely a fan of the idea of eternal punishment (and i even have a hard time accepting the idea of eternal heaven because i know im not worthy) i also accept that the Bible is quite clear on the subject.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason what in the world makes you say...that Jesus preached to souls already on their way to hell?
That is absurd.
Jesus preached to flesh

The only thing I could imagine Jesus saying to a soul onward to hell...is "You shouldnt have been so terrible"

First, I believe the word "preach" is in reference to announce or proclaim and not so as to evangelize. I believe Jesus made an announcement of some kind to those fallen wicked spirits who died during the global flood in the realm of the dead (within the heart of the Earth).

Second, my words here are a quote from a verse taken from the Bible.

By whom also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (1 Peter 3:19 KJV).

 

[skylove7]

You speak of the rich man and Lazarus Jason. But did the evil man get forgiveness...while looking up at Lazarus. No he did not.
Forgive me I dont understand why you teach that Jesus preaches to people in hell.
Sorry bout their luck
But if God feels that they deserved heaven
He doesnt send them to hell
When judged you are judged
Thats all Im saying

 

[Jason0047]

You speak of the rich man and Lazarus Jason. But did the evil man get forgiveness...while looking up at Lazarus. No he did not.
Forgive me I dont understand why you teach that Jesus preaches to people in hell.
Sorry bout their luck
But if God feels that they deserved heaven
He doesnt send them to hell
When judged you are judged
Thats all Im saying

Please read my recent post. I do not believe the wicked can be saved after they died and they have stayed dead.

 

[Reborn]

Not sure what you are saying.

The English word "hell" can be used in reference to the Lake of Fire, Torments (what we call Hell), and a general reference to the abode of the dead (Where both Abraham's Bosom and Torments reside). I believe Jesus' physical body died and that the Spirit portion of Him which is the second person of the Godhead, went down into Abraham's bosom for three days. I also believe he preached to the spirits in prison, too. Jesus then had conquered death and rose from the dead. Jesus paid the price for sin, which was.... death (physically) and not eternal torture in Hell.

I mean, think about it. The Lake of Fire is called the Second Death. This is important to understand because it is related to the first death, i.e. physical death. In other words, you cannot call something the Second Death and not have it related to the first one.

The Lake of Fire is what it ends with as stated in Revelation 20.
Does it seem logical that God would pull up Hell and cast it back into Hell?
You can't judge again what apparently has already been judged.

Is Hell something different than the Lake of Fire? .......I'm just asking? IDK for certain?

Yes, Jesus spent three days in the heart of the earth.
Yes, He went and preached to the spirits in prison.

He also told the thief on the cross that they'd be in "paradise today", and later told Mary that He has "not ascended to the Father yet"

What does Acts 2:31 mean?
At what point was "His soul not left in Hell"

 

[Jason0047]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: carm-table-with-border, width: 201, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]forever and ever

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Eternal - without end[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Eternal Damnation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great whore of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

The scholars get it right in part but they are not totally correct.

The Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 KJV which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

Did you read Isaiah 34:10?

 

[Blain]

I dont know what your experience was or if it was true, and i tend to be quite skeptical of NDE's, but Im glad if that brought you to Christ

As i said, God can work in mysterious ways. Although i myself am not entirely a fan of the idea of eternal punishment (and i even have a hard time accepting the idea of eternal heaven because i know im not worthy) i also accept that the Bible is quite clear on the subject.

Oh no it wasn't what brought me to Christ but it's kind of pointless explaining why I saw what I saw, as not many would understand.

 

[MarcR]

right but as Christians we are to be a witness to unbelievers and when they reject the gospel simply cause they "don't believe",it's heart breaking..one example is my brother who just doesn't believe it until he sees it....and in his eyes there's nothing wrong with how he lives..sin doesn't even exist in his world...we're not here just to walk a righteous life but to win souls to Christ...and when they are rejecting it,it is a constant reminder of where they could be going...

Sister,

You have precisely the attitude that we are all called to have. Just remember that God, who calls us to compassion, had enough compassion to suffer in our place.

 

[MarcR]

So, you came to Jesus out of fear, then?

That doesn't need to be any individual's path for it to be valid! Johnathan Edwards brought hundreds of thousands to Jesus, out of fear, with one sermon!

 

[Jason0047]

The Lake of Fire is what it ends with as stated in Revelation 20.

Which is called the Second Death in Revelation 21:8. This is because it is related to the first death? No?

Does it seem logical that God would pull up Hell and cast it back into Hell?

Hell sits atop of the Lake of Fire. It will drop down into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is still in the general realm of Hell. We have in our own culture words that are similar. Today we use words that sound the same but yet they have different meanings. They are called Homonyms. Bark can be a bark on a tree or it can be a bark from a dog. In other words, I can say the dog barked at the squirrel up in the branches as it scratched it's paws upon the bark of the tree.

You can't judge again what apparently has already been judged.

What are you talking about?

Is Hell something different than the Lake of Fire? .......I'm just asking? IDK for certain?

In the Bible, the English word "hell" is based on the context. We know this because there are different Greek words that are used. Gehenna is the Lake of Fire. Sheol is the abode of the dead. Hades can be in reference to the abode of the dead or to Torments.

Yes, Jesus spent three days in the heart of the earth.
Yes, He went and preached to the spirits in prison.

We can agree on that part.

He also told the thief on the cross that they'd be in "paradise today", and later told Mary that He has "not ascended to the Father yet"

We agree on this, too.

What does Acts 2:31 mean?
At what point was "His soul not left in Hell"

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (Acts 2:31).

Two things this verse says.

His soul was not left in Hell.
His flesh did not see corruption.

His flesh would be his body in the tomb. It did not decay and become corrupted.

His soul was not left in the general abode of the dead in the heart of the Earth. It is not saying Jesus was being tortured or trapped in Torments like the richman.

 

[MarcR]

I would never want to go to heaven if I was just afraid of going to hell.... There has to be more than do what I say or you will BURN....that just never motivated me to love God and I think it is off putting to more people than the Blond....Hell fire preaching bothers me and scaring people into salvation to me is the wrong way to go about it.

Paul said, I am all things to all men that by all means some might be saved. Certainly preaching hell without preaching love, is not doing justice to the gospel; but some are drawn by fear and others by love; but all should focus on love when discipling the saved.

 

[Reborn]

Which is called the Second Death in Revelation 21:8. This is because it is related to the first death? No?



Hell sits atop of the Lake of Fire. It will drop down into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is still in the general realm of Hell. We have in our own culture words that are similar. Today we use words that sound the same but yet they have different meanings. They are called Homonyms. Bark can be a bark on a tree or it can be a bark from a dog. In other words, I can say the dog barked at the squirrel up in the branches as it scratched it's paws upon the bark of the tree.



What are you talking about?



In the Bible, the English word "hell" is based on the context. We know this because there are different Greek words that are used. Gehenna is the Lake of Fire. Sheol is the abode of the dead. Hades can be in reference to the abode of the dead or to Torments.



We can agree on that part.



We agree on this, too.



He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (Acts 2:31).

Two things this verse says.

His soul was not left in Hell.
His flesh did not see corruption.

His flesh would be his body in the tomb. It did not decay and become corrupted.

His soul was not left in the general abode of the dead in the heart of the Earth. It is not saying Jesus was being tortured or trapped in Torments like the richman.

If Hell and death are pulled up and judged in Revelation 20, right?
I ask, why would God pull up hell, (where some people say the sinners go upon death) re-judge them and cast them back into Hell?
This logic says they ARE ALREADY in Hell at Judgement Day , it also shows they have been technically "judged" upon death.(They are in hell?)
Pretty simple question?

Second question......Jesus' soul is not left in the "general abode" of the dead? Hell sits atop the Lake??
Jesus went to hell then?? That's paradise? Where tourtured souls are "around" Him?

IMO,You seem to be improvising as you go along?

 

[gb9]

first he says he only believes the Bible, then he questions the translations. yes, seems a bit confused, or just double-talk, or a bit of both.

 

[Jason0047]

The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ezk. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).
The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1
​

Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.
There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:

Uh, no. As I stated before. Heaven and Hell are not spoken of in Matthew 25:46. You are making an assumption that is what is being spoken of here. No such words... such as Heaven and Hell are used. That is your false premise.

The contrast is .....

1. Everlasting Punishment.
2. Life Eternal.

I can say that the man who was executed by lethal injection was punished forever or that his death is an "everlasting punishment" because the consequences (punishment) are eternal.

Life Eternal is the opposite side of the contrast. It does not make sense to say that the wicked also have Life Eternal if the righteous have it, too. In other words, in your view, the passage could say....

And that both will go into Life Eternal because they both live on forever.

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24).

Contrast what is being spoken here. One has passed from death unto life. We know what death is by the fact that when a person dies physically. We can then get an accurate picture of what spiritual life is by looking at the real world. As I stated before, this is why Jesus used parables or real world examples.

Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.

​

• "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

No, it means what it says here. There is an eternal destruction or ruin that has happened here. They are destroyed. Eternal destruction.

• "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

Yes, Sodom and Gomorrah are the example to all who live ungodly. They are ashes now. That is the example and punishment of eternal fire. The fire may be eternal but it does not mean the things in that fire are eternal. This is evident by the fact that the people of Sodom were consumed by the fire. For raging infernos today can seem like they are unstoppable, but that does not mean that the things within the fire are not consumed by it, though.

• These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reservedforever," (Jude12-13).

Is "forever and ever" without end?
The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

Outer darkness is within Hell. Hell will then be cast (dropped down) into the Lake of Fire that is beneath Hell. All of Hell including the realm known as outer darkness will be consumed forever. Those in Jude who are cast into the realm of outer darkness forever means they fate is forever sealed to go to that place with no return.

For you have to ask yourself.... Why do you want evil to exist forever? I know my God is good and He will destroy evil like He has always done before. God is going to restore the creation back to the way it was supposed to be in the beginning.

 

[Jruiz]

Their worm does not die until it completely consumes it's host. We see this with corpses. It suggests decay and death. Worms today can feed on dead corpses. The verse says nothing about how they are still kept alive forever and ever as the worms continue to feed on them. The verse does not say that.

In other words, the "worm dies not" while it is consuming them. The Scriptures say the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This suggests that there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed before that point.

hmm...never saw it like that..that particular verse pretty much sealed the idea of eternal torment..