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greatkraw
Guest
the antichrist cant even appear until the Holy spirit takes the church out of the world
like yr signature and animated gif
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miktre
Guest
Wheres your scripture to back that? I need a good going over scripture before I go to bed.the antichrist cant even appear until the Holy spirit takes the church out of the world
like yr signature and animated gif
Really though,
OK you said those verses in Matthew 24 didn't pertain to you, but only the 144,000.
Now your buddy says they do pertain to you but this is a second gathering after rapture.
So which is it? It can't be both.
Hey, you changed your Sig, LoL
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greatkraw
Guest
Wheres your scripture to back that? I need a good going over scripture before I go to bed.
Really though,
OK you said those verses in Matthew 24 didn't pertain to you, but only the 144,000.
Now your buddy says they do pertain to you but this is a second gathering after rapture.
So which is it? It can't be both.
Hey, you changed your Sig, LoL
II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a Falling Away(Apostasis = OutFrom Stand = the rapture) first; and(THEN) that man of sin(Antichrist) be revealed, the son of perdition.
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Revelation 7:4)
"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Revelation 14:4-5)
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." (Revelation 12:11)
Nevertheless, these Evangelists, (and those saved under their ministries), will be killed by the Antichrist and therefore they will go directly into the presence of Almighty God to ever be with their Beloved, Jesus Christ:
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:9,13-14)
http://www.meaningofrevelation.com/the_144000_jewish_evangelists.htm
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miktre
Guest
II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a Falling Away(Apostasis = OutFrom Stand = the rapture) first; and(THEN) that man of sin(Antichrist) be revealed, the son of perdition.
Now falling means flying? falling away=apostacy Gr. apostasia Your right the rapture doctine is an apostacy.
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Revelation 7:4)
Yes, so you are sticking with the 144,000. As far out as that is, it's not as crazy as the other rapture theory.
"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Revelation 14:4-5)
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." (Revelation 12:11)
Nevertheless, these Evangelists, (and those saved under their ministries), will be killed by the Antichrist and therefore they will go directly into the presence of Almighty God to ever be with their Beloved, Jesus Christ:
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:9,13-14)
http://www.meaningofrevelation.com/the_144000_jewish_evangelists.htm
You say the 144,000 are the elect. You think Christ just forgot to tell the church what was going to happen to them in this great teaching?
Hey, I got you a new avatar pic, it's pooh getting raptured but he got a snack on the way up.
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charisenexcelcis
Guest
You often have interesting and thought envoking posts, but you get too carried away in how you respond to other people's responses.II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a Falling Away(Apostasis = OutFrom Stand = the rapture) first; and(THEN) that man of sin(Antichrist) be revealed, the son of perdition.
Now falling means flying? falling away=apostacy Gr. apostasiaYour right the rapture doctine is an apostacy.
This little bit of twisting is really out there. He was illustrating that before the taking up there will be an apostasy and that the Antichrist will be revealed. You are applying it to a different question. but you know that, you just got a little carried away. The reinterpretation of words shows your frustration.
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Revelation 7:4)
Yes, so you are sticking with the 144,000. As far out as that is, it's not as crazy as the other rapture theory.
"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Revelation 14:4-5)
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." (Revelation 12:11)
Nevertheless, these Evangelists, (and those saved under their ministries), will be killed by the Antichrist and therefore they will go directly into the presence of Almighty God to ever be with their Beloved, Jesus Christ:
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:9,13-14)
http://www.meaningofrevelation.com/the_144000_jewish_evangelists.htm
You say the 144,000 are the elect. You think Christ just forgot to tell the church what was going to happen to them in this great teaching?
Again, you are applying his answers to one question to a different question. This is why most people don't even bother to read your extensive posts. It is not enough for you to be convinced and to post a reasonable argument. You get carried away and engage in a semantic onslaught that is fruitless.
Hey, I got you a new avatar pic, it's pooh getting raptured but he got a snack on the way up.
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wwjd_kilden
Guest
I do think there will be a rapture (I have no proofs, I just think so) before the true tribulation
BUT I also believe we are in tribulation now
But Y know, the more I think about this, the more I settle on this though:
To us, who are already Christians, living now, it should not matter. whether there is a rapture or not, things will get worse in our lifetime
if there is a rapture: good! that means the ones left behind get a second chance to set things straight. But we still should evangelize to save them from those horrible times
if not, well, then we better evangelize even harder as we all will be going through it and need all the support and allies we can get
if we all could live the way raptureists (is that a wiod?) think we should during the tribulation/ end days, NOW instead, then perhaps we can get more ready, no matter what happens no happens not
BUT I also believe we are in tribulation now
But Y know, the more I think about this, the more I settle on this though:
To us, who are already Christians, living now, it should not matter. whether there is a rapture or not, things will get worse in our lifetime
if there is a rapture: good! that means the ones left behind get a second chance to set things straight. But we still should evangelize to save them from those horrible times
if not, well, then we better evangelize even harder as we all will be going through it and need all the support and allies we can get
if we all could live the way raptureists (is that a wiod?) think we should during the tribulation/ end days, NOW instead, then perhaps we can get more ready, no matter what happens no happens not
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greatkraw
Guest
Miktre I have never known you NOT to misrepresent my position.
Your original request concerned being conned by the antichrist
I demonstrated that the church is outa here before the antichrist appears
the scripture makes it quite clear that the 144000 are NOT the church but are Jewish
the evidence that you have trouble arguing with me is that you resort to personal insinuations, albeit subtle ones
Your original request concerned being conned by the antichrist
I demonstrated that the church is outa here before the antichrist appears
the scripture makes it quite clear that the 144000 are NOT the church but are Jewish
the evidence that you have trouble arguing with me is that you resort to personal insinuations, albeit subtle ones
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miktre
Guest
This little bit of twisting is really out there. He was illustrating that before the taking up there will be an apostasy and that the Antichrist will be revealed. You are applying it to a different question. but you know that, you just got a little carried away. The reinterpretation of words shows your frustration.
I Just was a little shocked when he wrote that. I thought he was joking almost. Seriously, he said Apostacy=rapture. The scripture easily reads that, yes they shall be a falling away first. That falling away is from God, that is the Great Apostacy. Now how you make that say rapture is a mystery to me.
Again, you are applying his answers to one question to a different question. This is why most people don't even bother to read your extensive posts. It is not enough for you to be convinced and to post a reasonable argument. You get carried away and engage in a semantic onslaught that is fruitless.
Yes I already provided the scripture documenting that we are the elect. So is the entire Chapter of Matthew 24 not pertaining to us or just those verses? Wouldn't you think it would it proper to share with everybody which verses pertain to us and which verses don't? I told you before some of my posts were extensive out of necessity. Thats why you run into problems you love to go on just a verse or maybe two. I'll keep in mind about you saying I get to carried away.
You often have interesting and thought envoking posts, but you get too carried away in how you respond to other people's responses
You could be right, I'll try harder.
I Just was a little shocked when he wrote that. I thought he was joking almost. Seriously, he said Apostacy=rapture. The scripture easily reads that, yes they shall be a falling away first. That falling away is from God, that is the Great Apostacy. Now how you make that say rapture is a mystery to me.
Again, you are applying his answers to one question to a different question. This is why most people don't even bother to read your extensive posts. It is not enough for you to be convinced and to post a reasonable argument. You get carried away and engage in a semantic onslaught that is fruitless.
Yes I already provided the scripture documenting that we are the elect. So is the entire Chapter of Matthew 24 not pertaining to us or just those verses? Wouldn't you think it would it proper to share with everybody which verses pertain to us and which verses don't? I told you before some of my posts were extensive out of necessity. Thats why you run into problems you love to go on just a verse or maybe two. I'll keep in mind about you saying I get to carried away.
You often have interesting and thought envoking posts, but you get too carried away in how you respond to other people's responses
You could be right, I'll try harder.
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miktre
Guest
Miktre I have never known you NOT to misrepresent my position.
I've never known you not to misrepresent your own positon. You throw these wild ideas out there saying this verse don't count and never leave the reader any wiser as to exactly which verses pertain to us and which don't.
Your original request concerned being conned by the antichrist
I demonstrated that the church is outa here before the antichrist appears
You really want me to make the connection from the word apostacy and beleive that means rapture?
the scripture makes it quite clear that the 144000 are NOT the church but are Jewish
It makes it clear these are of Israel, but you still haven't shown anything making it clear thats who Christ was talking about in Matthew 24 and which of the verses pertain to us and which ones don't. You are leaving the reader in limbo with this theory
the evidence that you have trouble arguing with me is that you resort to personal insinuations, albeit subtle ones
The only trouble here is with the rapurists keepin their story straight.
I take it you didn't think the new avatar pic was cute?
where does it say that the Holy Ghost is removed? if there is salvation in or during the tribulation then doesn't there have to Be the one that draws men unto God, unless God changes the way people comes to the knowledge, if there is no Holy Ghost to convict, why preach? but there is obviously some saved during the tribulation,
Re 7:14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
and then when the bride is already there and has been made ready,
Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
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miktre
Guest
This little bit of twisting is really out there. He was illustrating that before the taking up there will be an apostasy and that the Antichrist will be revealed. You are applying it to a different question. but you know that, you just got a little carried away. The reinterpretation of words shows your frustration.
I Just was a little shocked when he wrote that. I thought he was joking almost. Seriously, he said Apostacy=rapture. The scripture easily reads that, yes they shall be a falling away first. That falling away is from God, that is the Great Apostacy. Now how you make that say rapture is a mystery to me.
Also on this, so you know I'm not just trying to be a butthead, the way I read it, he was giving a literal translation not an order of events. Maybe I wrong but it sure looks that way:
Falling Away(Apostasis = OutFrom Stand = the rapture)
Looks like he was saying that the translation of falling away is rapture. In fact I looked and there are websites actually teaching this.
I Just was a little shocked when he wrote that. I thought he was joking almost. Seriously, he said Apostacy=rapture. The scripture easily reads that, yes they shall be a falling away first. That falling away is from God, that is the Great Apostacy. Now how you make that say rapture is a mystery to me.
Also on this, so you know I'm not just trying to be a butthead, the way I read it, he was giving a literal translation not an order of events. Maybe I wrong but it sure looks that way:
Falling Away(Apostasis = OutFrom Stand = the rapture)
Looks like he was saying that the translation of falling away is rapture. In fact I looked and there are websites actually teaching this.
EXACTLY
MIKTRE
is seriously dillusional
or
needs to convince himself he is somewhere between saved and beheaded
so
he can sleep at night
since
HE HAS NO CLUE
that
if he writes enough crap
he just might guess his salvation
TO BE TRUE..........
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shad
Guest
When the body of Christ goes up in the rapture so does the work of the Holy Spirit in every believer's life. This is the work that started at salvation. It involved growing in grace and knowledge of Christ, the trials of our faith, the benefit of taking up our cross and the growing we did in the wisdom of God. All of this was forming Christ in us and making us an effective witness and testimony of the glorious gospel of Christ. You can't deny that we are more mature and have greater wisdom then when we first believed. We needed to come to that place where we could be meat for the master's use. All of this that God has performed in the believer will be gone when we go up to meet the Lord in the air at the rapture.
We, the church,were the ambassadors for Christ being in His stead with His words and that will be taken up. The presence of God in the believer will be gone from every part of the world that God had called them to minister and preach the gospel. That will be quite a presence of God and work of the Spirit missing from the earth. Also the fruit of the Spirit that is revealed through the believer will be gone and all the good works that we were ordained to do will cease at the rapture. All that seed planting, watering and reaping that was going on in the world through the work of the church will be lifted away. That is quite a loss for the world. All that fruit will be in heaven rejoicing the heart of God and the bridegroom of Christ.
After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will have to focus on Israel to establish a presence on the earth in the limited time of (7) years. What a work that will be, but it will be without the assistance of the church and bride of Christ. Satan and his confederated host will have a field day during this tribulation time and blind more and more people because the light of the glorious gospel with be missing in most of the world especially in the beginning of that (7) years. Satan will be able to establish many strongholds and demons will once again possess individuals with signs and lying wonders to deceive even the very elect concerning Israel and their converts, seeing how they once were so oriented to signs and miracles in order to believe. But God shortens those days for the elect's sake. There is no restraint unto the Lord to save by many or by few, so there will be a great work of God but it will not include the church. There will be a false church that will present itself to the Antichrist but that has nothing to do with God or His HOLY SPIRIT.
We, the church,were the ambassadors for Christ being in His stead with His words and that will be taken up. The presence of God in the believer will be gone from every part of the world that God had called them to minister and preach the gospel. That will be quite a presence of God and work of the Spirit missing from the earth. Also the fruit of the Spirit that is revealed through the believer will be gone and all the good works that we were ordained to do will cease at the rapture. All that seed planting, watering and reaping that was going on in the world through the work of the church will be lifted away. That is quite a loss for the world. All that fruit will be in heaven rejoicing the heart of God and the bridegroom of Christ.
After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will have to focus on Israel to establish a presence on the earth in the limited time of (7) years. What a work that will be, but it will be without the assistance of the church and bride of Christ. Satan and his confederated host will have a field day during this tribulation time and blind more and more people because the light of the glorious gospel with be missing in most of the world especially in the beginning of that (7) years. Satan will be able to establish many strongholds and demons will once again possess individuals with signs and lying wonders to deceive even the very elect concerning Israel and their converts, seeing how they once were so oriented to signs and miracles in order to believe. But God shortens those days for the elect's sake. There is no restraint unto the Lord to save by many or by few, so there will be a great work of God but it will not include the church. There will be a false church that will present itself to the Antichrist but that has nothing to do with God or His HOLY SPIRIT.
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charisenexcelcis
Guest
I use smaller posts because I feel it is easier on line to deal with a few things at a time, no criticism of long posts. A wise preacher said, you don't feed the horse the whole load of hay at once. You know that I will read and think about what you write even if I don't respond. One exception, I skip your argument with Joint Heir. Maybe you should too.lol.
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miktre
Guest
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greatkraw
Guest
A great Summary Shad
and I think THIS is why we do not see the US in the end times
when the rapture hits a huge minority of the US population will disappear
other countries affected badly will be Canada, Australia, New Zealand, also UK and South Africa
Seems like you need to become more familiar with the pre-trib rapture doctrine you profess...the website below explains it and admits that the Holy Spirit's influence will be diminished which would obviously mean that NOT MANY will be saved during the tribulation.
http://raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
"He" That is Taken Out of the Way
Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain "He" must be taken out of the way. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the "He" that must be removed is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit. It has been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation. The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church.
raptureready.com misses a big point, either deliberately or accidentally, i dont know... it's not just a "he"... it's also an "it"... two forces at work.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
these are two forces at work here in these two verses... Psalm 139:6-12 confirms that the Holy Spirit cannot be taken out from anywhere... the Holy Spirit is EVERYWHERE. Ephesians 1:12-13 says that every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, so for the church to supposedly be "raptured", every person who accepts Christ into their hearts during the great tribulation would be raptured away... and this is impossible because it says that the Antichrist persecutes the saints for 3 1/2 years. 1 Corinthians 12:1-3 says that no one can say "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit will stay on the earth throughout that time.
the church has NEVER been referred to as an "it" or a "he"... in fact, paul calls the church a woman in Ephesians 5:25-32. We have always been referred to as a female in the Word of God.
the two forces that are holding back the Man of Lawlessness is not the Holy Spirit or the church... it is the Archangel Michael and his army. (Revelation 12:6-12, Daniel 10:13-14, Daniel 10:20-21, Daniel 21:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7)
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
these are two forces at work here in these two verses... Psalm 139:6-12 confirms that the Holy Spirit cannot be taken out from anywhere... the Holy Spirit is EVERYWHERE. Ephesians 1:12-13 says that every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, so for the church to supposedly be "raptured", every person who accepts Christ into their hearts during the great tribulation would be raptured away... and this is impossible because it says that the Antichrist persecutes the saints for 3 1/2 years. 1 Corinthians 12:1-3 says that no one can say "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit will stay on the earth throughout that time.
the church has NEVER been referred to as an "it" or a "he"... in fact, paul calls the church a woman in Ephesians 5:25-32. We have always been referred to as a female in the Word of God.
the two forces that are holding back the Man of Lawlessness is not the Holy Spirit or the church... it is the Archangel Michael and his army. (Revelation 12:6-12, Daniel 10:13-14, Daniel 10:20-21, Daniel 21:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7)
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miktre
Guest
Nice job Zilla, lets look at the next two verses to get even a clearer understanding. Why can't God's word simply mean what it says? Rapture ready must change things time and again to get there doctrine fit in the word of God, there is simply no place for it.
2 Thessalonians 2
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Paul just told us in the previous verses the man of sin(satan), the son of pertition, will be here proclaiming to be God. Satan will be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The mystery of iniquity is the great end time lie. Paul said the false shall show up before Christ. You think God would not know about the great endtime lie and teaching his children to follow the first to come? God will let this happen and then the truth will be known when Christ comes and satan is taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Satan will be revealed for the fake that he is when Christ comes. Did Paul forget to mention a rapture here? No, because there won't be one. Only the lies of one.
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Can't be much clearer when Paul tells you Christ comes after Satan. See below.
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
It's a shame those at rapture ready can't understand something so simple. The love of God's word is so simply taught here, why do they have to to such great lengths to make it say something it doesn't.
Lets take a look at:
working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
Now lets take a look at Matthew 24:24
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Can you believe there are rapurists teaching that this is already happening? Whens the last time you saw someone that has the supernatural powers to show great signs and wonders. You haven't. Didn't he tell you that it shall be like in the days of Noah when the fallen angels were here?
Revelations talks about the powers the second beast has to do great wonders and miracles to fool men has after he has healed the first beast(one world government). Go ahead and read it and see for yourself.
Revelation 13
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.