The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

fredjames · Jun 10, 2015

As it is written and said by the 'LORD of Sabbath' Himself that;

"My FATHER is always working, so I too must work."

So Christians are to 'rest' on the Sabbath day, when as it is written according to the New Covenant/Testament, contractual agreement with their GOD, in the Gospel for them who believe in HIM, as they were called, to 'practice' and to 'abide' through these Spiritual Knowledge in their hearts in 'oneness', that JESUS is always working, as HIS FATHER always work?

JESUS is the LORD over the Sabbath and HE is able to 'teach' us the GOD pleasing and required way and what should be 'practice' on that day and not once again according to the 'letter', written in the 'Law of Moses'.

GOD bless you all in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST.

JGIG · Jun 10, 2015

Yahshua said:

All of that and you end up stating that you believe that the Law is God.

Until you shed that belief the Gospel will escape you.

The commands of Christ/God in the New Covenant are to believe on the One God has sent and
Love one another (John 6:28-29, John 13, 15, echoed in 1 Jn. 3:23-24).

If you carefully read the above Scriptures, sanctification is not achieved through obedience to commandments, but by the working of New Life in us by Christ's Spirit.

But you've reduced Him to a written code.

Jesus spoke clearly to this behavior:

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (from Jn. 5)

You wrote, "This is why it's so critically important to follow the commandments, because that's the only way we can GUARANTEE that we have CHRIST'S Spirit in us and not a counterfeit's spirit."

Please hear this: You do not have any power or authority to guarantee anything. Who does? Christ and His Spirit:

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. - Eph. 1

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. - Heb. 7

21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. - 2 Cor. 1

Until you grasp and believe in the Work of Christ and the ministry of His Spirit, you will continue on in not only a false gospel, but also a law of your own creation.

Repent (change your mind) and believe the Gospel.

-JGIG

sparkman · Jun 10, 2015

I've been where you are. Grasp the Reality, not the shadow. The law is only a shadow, as Colossians 2:16-17 says.

Legalists are like a man that carries a picture of his girlfriend in his wallet during wartime, but when wartime is over and he's back home, he tells his girlfriend that he doesn't need her anymore; he's got the picture.

Read that whole chapter. It says Christians are complete in Christ and don't need to do a bunch of legalistic acts to be complete. Those legalistic acts include Sabbath and annual festivals.

Been there, done that, bought the T shirt.

I realize from talking to Judaizers more and more that the reason I got caught up in this snare of Satan is due to my pride, and I see it in you guys now.

I thought I was smarter and closer to God and the truth than everyone else. I knew the Bible better than they did.

I am starting to wonder if there are any true victims amongst those who fall into legalistic Judaizing cults. I believe it is their pride that gets them drawn into it..looking down on Christians who just believe the simple gospel. I probably deserved the 10 year detour that legalism gave me.

I challenge you to read the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. Think on it. It clarifies the underlying flaws in the Judaizing logic.

By the way, I understand Scripture a lot better than I did when I was a legalist. Acknowledge it or not, it's you that is taking verses out of context, or implying a false context.

Yahshua said:

sparkman · Jun 10, 2015

@Eliwood,

Please consider reading Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. It will clear up much of the false teaching that is affecting your thinking. If it can prevent you from spending 10 years of your life in doctrinal error, or more, it will be well worth it. It may even prevent you from failing to gain eternal life, as I believe there are many unsaved legalists.

Dale was a high school teacher with the Seventh Day Adventist church, so he knows how to present information a lot better than myself.

Ask yourself if you have a tendency toward the sin of pride. I can tell you are a reasonably intelligent person. Intelligent people tend to be judgmental of people who don't display the same gifting. They become contemptuous of the shortcomings of others in terms of understanding. I think that was the root of my issue, and that is why Armstrongism and legalism was able to get a foothold in my life. They seemed to present a reasonable basis for their position, and I ended up accepting it. Our intellect and pride entraps us more than we think it does. Satan has many tricks in his bag, and this is one of them; appealing to a person's intellectual pride and vanity. As I've mentioned before, I think the whole "born into the family of God" and "kings and priests in the Millennium" teaching appeals to that sense of vanity and pride. Our nature wants to think that there is something special about us and our place with God..that he is going to use us in some special way. I believe each of us is special to God, but there is a tendency for us to elevate ourselves above others in terms of specialness. It is human pride.

Don't let the legalists fool you into accepting that they are the source of truth. They may be right on a few things, but they are on error on many things. It's the few things that they may be right about that cause you to give them credibility, and then they sell you on their whole package of false teachings. For instance, you know that I think annihilationism is a plausible argument, rather than eternal torment. Those sorts of blind spots within orthodox Christianity is what they focus upon, and try to discredit all of Christianity due to it.

Legalists also try to infer that Christians are false believers and into antinomianism. This is not true at all. As I've said over and over again, Christians are obedient to what applies to THEM, not ancient Israel. Obedience is a fruit of salvation. Faith produces salvation produces obedience. The obedience comes from a regenerate nature that God imparts to the person at salvation. Obviously, I can find many professing Christians who are living a lifestyle of sin, and everyone falls short. I can find legalists who are in the same situation..in fact, I think they are in even more sin, considering the hypocrisy that is part and parcel with it. One can attend every feast and festival, conscientiously avoid clean/unclean meats, and tithe perfectly and still be a nasty rotten hateful pride filled person. This is perfectly illustrated by the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican in Luke 18:9-14. Notice his bold claims concerning his obedience to the Law.

People in cults don't just decide overnight that they want to join a cult. It's an indoctrination process that takes a while usually. As JGIG mentioned, they are like a frog stewing in a pot. The water is heating up slowly and the frog sits there contently enjoying the warmth, until it is too late and he becomes frog stew.

Anyways that's my friendly advice. Ask yourself if your pride is leading you in the wrong direction. Check out the other side of the argument with Dale's book. You also owe it to anyone you may mislead by conveying wrong information. If you are conveying wrong information to others, you may find yourself in the place of the false teachers in Matthew 7.

Regards,

Robert

Eliwood · Jun 10, 2015

I'm so thankful that God has given me a guidline on how to be happy and successful.

Keep this Book of the Law always on your lips; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. (Joshua 1:8)

It's sad that those guidlines are rejected and frowned upon by most of the disceived world. If everyone read and obeyed His commandments, there would be no need for heaven, because we'd already be there.

I appreciate all your input on salvation, Yahshua. You really helped show how much unity there is between the OT and NT. Epecially the parts where Jesus specifically told those wishing to be saved to follow the law of God. No contradictions or inconsistencies about what is and is not still for today. Just the plain truth that the whole Bible should be followed.

I'm really looking forward to the return of our lord. Just imagine how great it's going to be when EVERYONE if following the law of God.

Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. (Isaiah 2:4)

Eliwood · Jun 10, 2015

Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path. (psalm 119:105)

Yahshua · Jun 11, 2015

JGIG said:

You're right to suggest that we both have two different gospels...it indeed was prophesied and warned against by Paul to contend for the faith once held by the saints, else another gospel and another Christ be preached. It will be interesting which gospel will stand the weight of judgment at the end of days. All we can do is keep on, you and I, right?

With regard to "The Law is God"; more correctly put, "God is the Law". The law is the very character of God etched by his finger. This is why Paul says "the law is spiritual yet we are of the flesh" (Romans 7:14). There's nothing wrong with the law of God, that's what's the faulty premise of your and other's argument. Rather, there's something wrong with us. Christ simply needs to fix us.

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

I'll repeat what Paul says again...

The mind that can not and does not submit to God's law is a mind governed by the flesh (and not by the Spirit of God).

...Once more for the Holy Spirit...

If you do not and can not possibly submit to God's law, the flesh (still) leads your mind (not the Holy Spirit).

Can't be said any plainer than Paul's words.

JGIG said:

How does Christ's spirit work? What is the specific job of Christ's Spirit? It's to teach us how to obey God and not sin (to sin is to transgress God's law; 1 John 3:4)

JGIG said:

With respect, it's you who've reduce Christ. You've reduced him to a feeling or intuition, implying one can learn all one needs to know about righteousness - all on ones own - simply through "how one feels" from one situation to another. That's what's truly dangerous to teach, especially new believers...

For instance, it's why several believers can be so completely convinced in what they feel God's Spirit is telling them to tell you for a certain situation yet be so completely different in their advice. God isn't the author of confusion nor is he double minded so each person should be saying the same thing because "there's [only] one Spirit [in Christ]" (Ephesians 4:4).

...It's also why some believers eventually stagnate and never grow after their "new birth"...until - unfortunately - the new life is choked out of them by the cares of this world (Matt 13:21-22).

If you carefully read the passage you reference above JGIG, you'll notice that the context is "that you may have life". The Pharisees were searching the scriptures that they may have life; salvation. But again, we (you and I) are past that part. We are past Salvation. NOW, we are supposed to be walking towards our sanctification; maturation into the stature of the fullness of Christ. So that passage actually has nothing to do with what I've been saying regarding sanctification. The Pharisees were dealing with a different issue.

This is what Paul says regarding the scriptures, POST-Salvation.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and **training in righteousness**,

Training. After we are reckoned as "righteous" (justification) we must be trained as such (understanding God's law). It naturally follows this order. The issues the early church went through regarding what they should train new gentile converts was because they followed this order: Save people by preaching Christ, THEN train them in the ways of righteousness.

There's a reason why we are told to test every spirit to see if it's of God and to prove all things and hold onto what is good. It's because not every feeling one has for a given situation is in fact the Holy Spirit. There are many counterfeit spirits. And so yes, this is why I say the following...

JGIG said:

...But the part you wrote in purple is not scriptural at all. We can and indeed are commanded to prove....Prove (i.e. guarantee) that we have the truth. The scriptures, God-Breathed, are our guarantee that what we're hearing is true or false; that the spirit we have inside speaking to us is from God.

But why? Why does Paul, himself, say "you believer...YOU must prove all things"? This question is at the heart of what we're talking about. That's the context. As far as Paul is concerned, YOU can and MUST guarantee the message you hear with scripture. Yes. Paul instructs us to guarantee that what we're hearing is the truth with scripture. Scripture is the guarantor of the truth. It sounds poetic to say what you've said in purple...but with respect all that amounts to is ear-tickling; something that feels good to read but that doesn't stand the scrutiny of these words...

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21
19 Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But prove all things; hold fast to that which is good

Notice the context of this passage is to prove all things with regard to the Spirit's utterances. That's your job; to make sure what is being uttered to you is from The Holy Spirit.

You are taking the passage you shared out of context. The passage you shared was regarding the inheritance, of whom The Holy Spirit is indeed a guarantor. In other words, IF IF IF IF one has the Holy Spirit one can **guarantee** that their future inheritance is as good as theirs. But that's the question one should ask..."Does one, in fact, have the Holy Spirit in them? How does one know?" The only way to prove; to guarantee that spirit is who he says he is is to compare what you're "hearing" with what the Holy Spirit breathed into the scriptures. Because "God does not change" (Malachi 3:6) and "Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). Their words won't change 2000, 4000, 6000 years later for the same situations.

JGIG said:

It's not hard to grasp what the Spirit is here to do. Christ told us.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I said to you.

Christ tells us exactly what the Holy Spirit's job is. It's to remind us of what he said...so again that brings us back to all of what Christ said. So what did he say? Well, I shared that in my last post. In fact it was more scripture that commentary...and where I did comment I simply repeated exactly what the passage was saying in bullet point...

I went through all of that posting of scripture showing that to believe in Christ is to believe in what he said. Why? Because he said that's what belief in him is (to hear and do his words because his words are his spirit)...and all he would ever say over and over and over is, "here. your sins are forgiven...now *sin no more*; do what my Father commands" (John 5:14 & 8:11). He's the one that gave all the commandments. He was the one at Mt. Sinai giving the law. He was the voice shouting down the burning mountain. He was the voice whispering in the burning bush. He was the spirit leading the Israelites in the wilderness. Christ. Christ did it all, he who is "the [visible] image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15).

Christ gave the commandments. Christ died on the cross. Christ dispenses the grace. Christ spoke the message of Revelation to John, which says...

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There's a war against those who would do BOTH. They are Satan's enemies. Two different pieces linked together. Two different elements required. Over and over the message is the same that both are necessary. Yet while God's people speak of having Christ's testimony (Grace), those same people will say about God's law "[it's] a law of your own creation" or "we are not to obey God's Law anymore".

Lawlessness. Rebellion.

Please read the following with the full weight of knowing that we are in the last days. Please don't read past it simply because you've read it hundreds of times before. See what it's actually saying...please.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
3...[the day of Christ] will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

- It's a rebellion of God's people with regard to God's Law.

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

- A counterfeit god will be worshiped as God as a result of the rebellion against God's Law.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

- This counterfeit god will remain unknown until revealed.

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

- This secret power with regard to rebelling against God's Law was already starting in Paul's time (so where do you thing that power is now in its efforts in these last days?).

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

- Only Christ's words overthrow this counterfeit god who's against God's law.

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

- This counterfeit lawbreaker spreads the lie with miracles (so what's the lie with regard to God's Law?).

10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

- Those who love their sins don't want to hear the truth with regard to God's Law.

11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

- Since they love their sins so much God makes the lie (regarding his Law) *so strong* they believe it's the truth. These people Paul's referring to are God's people who have rebelled against his Law.

Eliwood · Jun 11, 2015

Since this thread's been going on for a while now, I just to want to remind everyone that there's no need for condemnation. This is just an attempt to search the scriptures together,and discover the reason behind all the contradictions that spring up throughout the Bible once you accept the common teaching that God's law has been "done away with" by Jesus Christ.

sparkman · Jun 11, 2015

Yahshua said:

Galatians defines the "other gospel" as the gospel of Judaizers, which seems to be what you're attempting to teach. Judaizers add to the simplicity of the gospel by requiring adherence to ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant, such as Sabbath and festival observance, as a condition or requirement of salvation, or as a necessary fruit of salvation.

Read the book of Galatians. The context is clear.

Which group do you belong to? I find that most Sabbath keeping organizations teach multiple errors. Some of them teach that humans become God beings in the resurrection. Others deny the deity of Christ or the Trinity. Others have leaders that they consider prophets or apostles.

sparkman · Jun 11, 2015

Eliwood said:

God's moral law has never been done away with. Ceremonial and ritualistic laws such as animal sacrifices, physical circumcision, the Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws have been.

Eliwood · Jun 11, 2015

@ Sparkman

If the sabbath has been done away with, why does Hebrews 4:9 specifically say that a Sabbath rest remains?

(Try to let the Bible change your beliefs, instead of letting your beliefs change the Bible)

Grandpa · Jun 11, 2015

Eliwood said:

I think you are referring to the Complete Judaizers Bible again. The real bible doesn't say what you think it says.

Hebrews 4:9-11
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Ceased from his own works as God did from his.

That puts Galatians in perspective, doesn't it?

Galatians 3:10-12

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Is the book of Galatians even in the Complete Judaizers Bible?

Why are those who are of the works of the law under the curse? Because they have not grown in the Grace and Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. They have instead, grown in the pride of their carnal understanding of a spiritual law. Why do I say its a carnal understanding of a spiritual law?

Simple. They are still working at it. See Hebrews 4:9-11... (in the real bible...)

Eliwood · Jun 11, 2015

@ Grandpa

For me, Bible study comes with 2 important rules that must be followed:
1. Always let the Bible interpret itself. Never insert your own interpretation into it.
2. Be willing to let the Bible change your beliefs. If you're close-minded about your beliefs, it will do you no good to study.

^ Now, bearing these 2 rules in mind, lets take a look at the passage you just quoted again:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Maybe it would be a good idea to read Galatians 4-5 with this question in mind: Was Paul reprimanding the Galatians because they were observing God's law? Or was he reprimanding them because they were trying to be JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW.

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.(2 Peter 3:16)

I'm truly amazed by how careless people are with Paul's word's, despite this powerful warning about the ignorant and unstable misusing them.

sparkman · Jun 11, 2015

Hebrews 4:9 and the Sabbath

Addressing Hebrews 4:9 and the Sabbath-rest that it mentions requires looking at the context of the book of Hebrews.The verse cannot be viewed in isolation.

Hebrews is a book that was addressed to Jewish believers who were considering retreating back into Judaism.

The author of Hebrews (probably Paul) was presenting a comparison to these believers to show that the New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant.

Here is how the contrast is drawn
·Jesus is a better revelation of truth (Heb 1:1-3)
·Jesus is better than the angels (Heb 1:3-14)
·Jesus is better than Moses (Heb 3:1-6)
·Jesus is better than Aaron (Heb 5)
·Jesus is a better high priest (Heb 6:7)
·The new covenant has a better law (Heb 7:12)
·The new covenant is a better covenant (Heb 8:6)
·The new covenant has better promises (Heb 8:6)
·The new covenant has a greater temple (Heb 9:11)
·The new covenant has better sacrifices (Heb 9:23)
·The new covenant has a better possession (Heb 10:34)
·The new covenant has a better country (Heb 11:16)
·The new covenant has a better resurrection (Heb 11:35)
·The new covenant has something better (Heb 11:40)
·The new covenant has better blood (Heb 12:24)
·The new covenant has a better atonement (Heb 10:1-25)

Hebrews 4:9 and the Sabbath reference needs to be viewed in a similar manner.New Covenant Christians have a better “Sabbath” than the Old Covenant one.

Hebrews 3: 1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, 2 who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house. 3 For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. 4 (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) 5 Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, 6 but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope. Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice,8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,9 where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years.10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.’11 As I swore in my wrath,‘They shall not enter my rest.’” 12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’”although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.” 6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

The author of Hebrews describes first what God’s rest is not, and then he describes what God’s rest is.

In Hebrews 3 and 4, the argument is being made that Jesus is better that Moses, and that Moses did not give ancient Israel “God’s rest” (3:11).So, the rest which is being addressed here is not talking about the Sabbath command, as Moses did give them the Sabbath commandment through God.

Joshua also did not give them true rest even though he brought them into the Promised Land, which was a type of rest as well (4:8).They enjoyed a type of “rest” but it wasn’t the rest that God spoke of in verse 10 (Josh 21:43-45).

Now that the author has identified two things that this true rest is not, he identifies characteristics related to what this true rest or Sabbath is.

From the remarks underlined above, we can discover three things about this rest.One, it involves the good news or gospel message (4:2, 6).Two, it is entered into by faith (4:3). Three, it is related somehow to the creation week (4:3-4).Four, it involves a rest from works by the person who enters into it (4:10). Five, the Greek phrase for “has rested” indicates the aorist tense, which specifies a particular point of time in the past that happened in an instant.

In essence, these verses describe the real Sabbath, which is manifested in Jesus Christ and placing our faith in Him after hearing the Gospel message.We cease trying to work our way into God’s favor andplace our faith in Him (Romans 4). This is the New Covenant “Sabbath” or rest which is better than the Old Covenant Sabbath.

How does the creation work relate in regards to this?Mankind enjoyed an unfettered relationship with God in the Garden of Eden.This relationship was one of peace, rest and unbroken communion with God.The Sabbath day in the Old Covenant pictured this relationship of peace, rest and unbroken communion with God.Believers under the Old Covenant only enjoyed this oasis of peace, rest and unbroken communion with God during these Sabbaths, though.

The New Covenant believer places his faith in Jesus Christ and experience the real thing, not the Old Covenant type.He experiences an unfettered open relationship with God that is similar to what mankind enjoyed before the Fall in the Garden of Eden, which separated him from close communion with God.The New Covenant believer enjoys peace, rest and unbroken communion with God perpetually.

This is how the New Covenant Sabbath-rest is better than the Old Covenant type that the author discusses.Jesus Christ is our New Covenant Sabbath-rest (Matt. 11:28-30) and we enter that rest through placing our faith in Him.

I can provide a more detailed analysis if anyone needs it.

Eliwood said:

sparkman · Jun 11, 2015

@Eliwood, you aren't addressing this to me but I do want to respond.

The Galatians were not only seeking to be justified by the law, they were seeking to be perfected by the law too:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

In addition, if you are reading Galatians in context like you claim, why do you advocate physical circumcision? I am not attacking you but simply pointing out an inconsistency. Paul speaks against it in no uncertain terms. In fact, Galatians speaks out against the Old Covenant, period. Respectfully, I ask if you have read Galatians in full yourself. If not, I challenge you to read it and think about it. It is very clear on this topic.

Eliwood said:

sparkman · Jun 11, 2015

@Eliwood, if you call others ignorant and unstable, you are not conveying an attitude of humility. And you are not encouraging dialogue. You are simply trying to teach others with no hint of humility at all.

Yahshua · Jun 11, 2015

sparkman said:

Yes. I would think the context should be clear. Yes. Again, Galatians is about correcting this error: "Obeying The law Justifies a man in the eyes of God" or "the law makes a person 'not guilty'" or " The Law can SAVE a person". This is the error Galatians is speaking against. Again, these are the errors Galatians is speaking against. Again these are incorrect.

THE LAW CAN NOT JUSTIFY A GUILTY PERSON IN THE EYES OF GOD.

The Judaizers were saying, "NO! Following the law (i.e. killing an animal when you sin) justifies you; restores you in the eyes of God; saves you from your sin...so we must do them." The context is these people, after receiving the gospel were trying to perform the remedies.

While I am saying, "AFTER...AFTER...AFTER we are justified as righteous (salvation by grace through faith) we must be trained as righteous by obeying God's law."

I think I understand why some don't understand where I'm coming from so I'm going to try a parable as it were...

----

Take the speeding law for our society...

Let's say you were speeding down the highway; 90mph in a 60mph zone...

There's no one around to get hurt so you choose to break the law...

Suddenly a police officer is commanding you to pull over...

You've hurt no one in your breaking of the speeding law. It was just you and open road...but now you're guilty of breaking the law...

If you were a Judaizer you would say, "Well officer I know I was speeding but I'll just go 30mph slower in 60mph zones from now on. That's 'just' right? I'll undo what I did. I'll 'un-guilt' myself thereby save myself from that ticket."

The Police officer would laugh hysterically because common sense dictates that you ALREADY broke the law and you can't "unbreak" it; that you are already guilty so any attempt to follow the law NOW - in your crime - would be a waste of time. The speeding law can not save you if you're found guilty of breaking it. Secondly, he'd laugh because your attempt to go slower is nothing more than an attempt to save yourself from the judge...you can't save yourself from a crime you commit, especially with your own remedy.

No, the only way to restore your good standing with the speeding law is to either pay the penalty yourself...or...be completely forgiven of your crime by the judge.

...BUT AFTER YOU ARE RESTORED in good standing...

...BUT AFTER YOU ARE RESTORED in good standing...

...BUT AFTER YOU ARE RESTORED in good standing...You are *required* to obey the speeding law so that you do not make yourself guilty of breaking it again.

Let's say the speeding ticket was so expensive that you couldn't pay the fine. So you throw yourself upon the mercy of the court...

The judge forgives your crime and saves you from the penalty, so that you are now free from your guilty status...

At no point would logic or sound reasoning dictate that you no longer have to obey the speeding law for the rest of your life simply because you were saved by the judge this one time. No. You can not use the judge's mercy and kindness as a license to break the speeding law. Common sense (and I'm sure the judge) would tell you not to break the law again; to follow the speeding law lest the judge not be so merciful next time.

Notice the order was: receiving the salvation from the judge (nothing you could do)...and then after that, obeying the law (what you are supposed to do).

----

In the parable above, the remedy to the crime was either to pay the penalty with our money or be forgiven. But in our case with the court of God, the remedy is to pay with a life or be forgiven...and that life has to be a human life, not an animal's life. So just like in the parable, the price is to high for us to pay so we need to be forgiven. And those who believe in Christ are forgiven; are saved from the penalty. Any attempt to sacrifice an animal or apply any of the "shadow" remedies (the things in the law one was to do only if a sin is committed) to restore our good standing is in effect "not accepting" what Christ's work was...because those *remedies* were simply to explain to us what he would do in heaven.

God's Law
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]The Commandments (to avoid sin)[/TD]
[TD]The Remedies (if one sins)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]loving God and neighbor[/TD]
[TD]shadowpictures of Christ[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]our job[/TD]
[TD]Christ's job[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

...BUT NOW THAT WE ARE RESTORED in good standing...

...BUT NOW THAT WE ARE RESTORED in good standing...

...BUT NOW THAT WE ARE RESTORED in good standing...We are *required* to obey God's commandments so that we do not make ourselves guilty of breaking God's law again.

I mean...isn't this what Christ says: "You are forgiven. Now go and sin no more (lest something worse come upon you)"?

sparkman said:

I belong to no group. I don't hail from any group, and more to the point, it wouldn't matter from which group I hailed because it's about whether the words I share are true or false with regard to the word of God.

1 Corinthians 3:3-5
3...for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men? 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? [simply] Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one

Eliwood · Jun 11, 2015

There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience. (Hebrews 4:9-11)

Nothing could be simpler.

Eliwood · Jun 11, 2015

Just think....

Working on the sabbath goes from being a crime that carries the death penalty, to be being perfectly acceptable in God's eyes. One minute he's killing people for it, the next minute, He's patting them on the back and telling them it's OK. Sounds just like the God that never changes....

I, the Lord, do not change. (Malachi 3:6)

sparkman · Jun 11, 2015

The Old Covenant had a ministry of condemnation and death. Read II Corinthians 3. Something you won't hear quoted much from Judaizers. They also won't quote the parts about those who are obsessed with the Old Covenant being blinded until God takes away the blindness. Note the underlined parts.

II Cor 3: 1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our[SUP]a[/SUP] hearts, to be known and read by all. 3And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.[SUP]b[/SUP]
4Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when one[SUP]c[/SUP] turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord[SUP]d[/SUP] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,[SUP]e[/SUP] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

By the way, God also was going to kill Moses for not circumcising his son, so the same penalty apparently applied to circumcision. Like the Sabbath, circumcision was a sign of the Old Covenant. As we have discussed, the Old Covenant is between God and Israel, not between God and Christians.

Exodus 4: 24At a lodging place on the way the Lord met him and sought to put him to death. 25Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’[SUP]c[/SUP] feet with it and said, “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!” 26So he let him alone. It was then that she said, “A bridegroom of blood,” because of the circumcision.

Eliwood said:

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