jesus saves corrupt sinners.
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P
If you read chapters 4 and 5 of the book of Revelation, then you will notice that the four and twenty or 24 elders were already present when John was caught up to heaven before Jesus started opening seals which revealed future events. As such, I don't believe that the four and twenty or 24 elders were somewhere yet off in the future, but a present reality at the time of John's trip to heaven.
P
Incidentally, the Jewish feast of Purim has to do with the casting of lots in that pur means lot and purim is the plural form of the word. From Esther chapter 9 verses 24 thru 26a:
Because Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, the enemy of all the Jews, had devised against the Jews to destroy them, and had cast Pur, that is, the lot, to consume them, and to destroy them;
But when Esther came before the king, he commanded by letters that his wicked device, which he devised against the Jews, should return upon his own head, and that he and his sons should be hanged on the gallows.
Wherefore they called these days Purim after the name of Pur.
Because Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, the enemy of all the Jews, had devised against the Jews to destroy them, and had cast Pur, that is, the lot, to consume them, and to destroy them;
But when Esther came before the king, he commanded by letters that his wicked device, which he devised against the Jews, should return upon his own head, and that he and his sons should be hanged on the gallows.
Wherefore they called these days Purim after the name of Pur.
P
What's with the combative posts? If you believe that what I said is out of context time shifting, then you ought to be able to prove the same from scripture without the unnecessary provocations. In Revelation chapter 1 verse 19, Jesus told John to Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter so some of what John wrote in the book of Revelation was a present reality. In chapters 4 and 5, the 24 elders are clearly present before Jesus begins to open seals which revealed future events. There's nothing out of context or anything related to time shifting in that reality. I can also assure that I'm anything but a Preterist.
G
New American Standard Bible
And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and(HE) chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:
Eph 4:11~~New American Standard Bible
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Apostles, prophets,evangelists,pastor teacher....... Are all spiritual gifts. We don't cast lots for a spiritual gift. He gives them.
Paul was not on the scene yet, and Matthias was still counted physically with Peter.
And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and(HE) chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:
Eph 4:11~~New American Standard Bible
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Apostles, prophets,evangelists,pastor teacher....... Are all spiritual gifts. We don't cast lots for a spiritual gift. He gives them.
Paul was not on the scene yet, and Matthias was still counted physically with Peter.
J
A statement of fundamentally not being on the same planet in this matter, nothing combative, rather encouraged your conversation with somebody else, who will agree with you. I'm not being combative, except now to tell you to put a sock in it, where I'm concerned. We're not doing combat. We're done. Is that plain enough?
P
Acts chapter 1 verses 12 thru 26:
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
The 120 were all praying.
Peter rightly interpreted two Old Testament prophecies relating to Judas and how he needed to be replaced.
Two men were appointed as possible replacements and they again prayed for the Lord Who knows the hearts of all men to show Whom He had chosen.
The Lord chose Matthias by the casting of lots which was not uncommon up until that time.
By the way, earlier you said:
Peter did not disobey the Lord as you claim so you should really reread Acts chapter 1 and verse 12. The verse says nothing of Peter departing from Jerusalem, but instead it mentions how Peter left the Mount of Olives and travelled to Jerusalem as the Lord had instructed him to.
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
The 120 were all praying.
Peter rightly interpreted two Old Testament prophecies relating to Judas and how he needed to be replaced.
Two men were appointed as possible replacements and they again prayed for the Lord Who knows the hearts of all men to show Whom He had chosen.
The Lord chose Matthias by the casting of lots which was not uncommon up until that time.
By the way, earlier you said:
Peter did not disobey the Lord as you claim so you should really reread Acts chapter 1 and verse 12. The verse says nothing of Peter departing from Jerusalem, but instead it mentions how Peter left the Mount of Olives and travelled to Jerusalem as the Lord had instructed him to.
P
Regarding the casting of lots, in Leviticus chapter 16 verse 8, Aaron was instructed to choose the scapegoat by the casting of lots, in Numbers chapter 26 verse 55, the Israelites were instructed to divide their land by the casting of lots, in Jonah chapter 1 verse 7, the men cast lots before the Lord to identify Jonah as their problem and so on and so on so the casting of lots was a common practice which the Lord used in decision making.
I agree it's important to know HOW Jesus saves the corrupt sinner.
Does Jesus save all corrupt sinners unconditionally? Of course not.
The corrupt sinner must conditionally:
believe--"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." Jn 8:24. The unbeliever is condemned, Jn 3:18.
repent-- "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Lk 13:3,5. The impenitent will be lost, Rom 2:4,5. The corrupt sinner cannot be saved in his corrupt sin but must repent turning from committing sins to doing God's righteousness.
confess-- "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Mt 10:32,33. The corrupt sinner must publicly confess Christ else be denied by Christ.
baptized-- "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38 The corrupt sinner must submit himself to water baptism to have his sins remitted, washed away by the blood of Christ. No one can ever be saved while in his unwashed sins.
walk faithfully-- "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." When the corrupt sinner submits to water baptism his sins are then cleansed away by the blood of Christ and he must continue to walk in the light to continually have his ALL his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ.
"....be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" Rev 2:10 he must remain faithful unto death to receive the crown of life for he will be lost for falling away unto unfaithfulness.
Does Jesus save all corrupt sinners unconditionally? Of course not.
The corrupt sinner must conditionally:
believe--"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." Jn 8:24. The unbeliever is condemned, Jn 3:18.
repent-- "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Lk 13:3,5. The impenitent will be lost, Rom 2:4,5. The corrupt sinner cannot be saved in his corrupt sin but must repent turning from committing sins to doing God's righteousness.
confess-- "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Mt 10:32,33. The corrupt sinner must publicly confess Christ else be denied by Christ.
baptized-- "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38 The corrupt sinner must submit himself to water baptism to have his sins remitted, washed away by the blood of Christ. No one can ever be saved while in his unwashed sins.
walk faithfully-- "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." When the corrupt sinner submits to water baptism his sins are then cleansed away by the blood of Christ and he must continue to walk in the light to continually have his ALL his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ.
"....be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" Rev 2:10 he must remain faithful unto death to receive the crown of life for he will be lost for falling away unto unfaithfulness.
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You still need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel.
In regards to believing in Him/faith, those in the church of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."
The church of Christ will cite that "even the devils believe" (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works.
Thus, their understanding gives rise to their reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith, and yet to the contrary, we find repentance actually preceding saving belief/faith:
Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.
Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
It's not about must confess Christ publicly in order to become saved but will confess Christ publicly if we are saved. As already explained numerous times before, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him alone for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
As already explained numerous times, in Acts 2:38 "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM) 47 Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, BEFORE WATER BAPTISM (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*
You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (compare with 1 John 3:10 - whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God) But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
Our sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ when we believe the gospel PRIOR TO WATER BAPTISM - (Acts 10:43-47). The cleansing of sin is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism. Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. *What happened to baptism?
If this verse teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to placing our faith in Christ for salvation, then just "how faithful would you have to be?" Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include ANY number of good works. This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there! In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.
In regards to believing in Him/faith, those in the church of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."
The church of Christ will cite that "even the devils believe" (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works.
Thus, their understanding gives rise to their reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith, and yet to the contrary, we find repentance actually preceding saving belief/faith:
Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.
Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
It's not about must confess Christ publicly in order to become saved but will confess Christ publicly if we are saved. As already explained numerous times before, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him alone for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
As already explained numerous times, in Acts 2:38 "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM) 47 Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, BEFORE WATER BAPTISM (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*
You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (compare with 1 John 3:10 - whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God) But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
Our sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ when we believe the gospel PRIOR TO WATER BAPTISM - (Acts 10:43-47). The cleansing of sin is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism. Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. *What happened to baptism?
If this verse teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to placing our faith in Christ for salvation, then just "how faithful would you have to be?" Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include ANY number of good works. This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there! In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.
