Do you believe you can die in unrepentant sin (Such as lying etc) and still be saved?

[PeterJens]

You only quoted PART of what I said.

My WHOLE quote:

The case of Ananias and Sapphire shows:
1) God is not a God of love and nothing more, but a God of justice and God will punish men.
2) God does not overlook or excuse sin.
3) grace does not automatically, unconditionally cover sin.

It strikes me that what you are trying to say is God is a God of love but this includes just and righteousness.

The way you wrote it would imply you do not like the emphasis on love being above justice and righteousness, but for me it is actually inseparable. Righteousness or doing the right thing, is implicit on doing what is appropriate in every situation.
To stop murderers, those who abuse, missuse and are dangerous is part of showing love to those being attacked and the wider community.

It causes people problems if you word things the way you have, but I think that is your intention. I just wonder why you want to create this impression? You could so easily not do so, or is this a kind of trap, testing if people actually read carefully what you are writing?

 

[PeterJens]

For all those cynics or law box tickers, the thief on the cross should answer your doubt.
"Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

The reality is the attitude of your heart, not whether you are into childish tantrums, or being a good boy.

It is too easy to end up in self righteousness, "I am ok today because of the list of x sins, I am not guilty of any today so it is a good day to die." That is not walking with the Lord, full stop, that is hypocracy, because it is judging yourself by your own understanding, when the Law is just to show us by how much we fall short, like a shadow, not to tell us where we do.

I in my life have been aware my whole attitude, why of thinking, outlook, hopes, dreams, ideas of interaction, keeping of wrongs done against me, and ignorance of the wrongs done against others, was as high as the ceiling, to begin to say, I was ok because I had not stolen today, was just absurd, it is like saying a stained sheet is white just because it has been washed. I am only white as snow because of Gods grace to me, nothing more.

 

[purgedconscience]

For all those cynics or law box tickers, the thief on the cross should answer your doubt.
"Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

The reality is the attitude of your heart, not whether you are into childish tantrums, or being a good boy.

It is too easy to end up in self righteousness, "I am ok today because of the list of x sins, I am not guilty of any today so it is a good day to die." That is not walking with the Lord, full stop, that is hypocracy, because it is judging yourself by your own understanding, when the Law is just to show us by how much we fall short, like a shadow, not to tell us where we do.

I in my life have been aware my whole attitude, why of thinking, outlook, hopes, dreams, ideas of interaction, keeping of wrongs done against me, and ignorance of the wrongs done against others, was as high as the ceiling, to begin to say, I was ok because I had not stolen today, was just absurd, it is like saying a stained sheet is white just because it has been washed. I am only white as snow because of Gods grace to me, nothing more.

There's more to the thief on the cross than that little snippet:

Luke chapter 23 verses 39 thru 43

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief who was promised paradise feared God, understood that he was justly condemned in that he was receiving the due reward of his deeds, understood that Jesus had done nothing amiss, called Him Lord and asked Him to remember him when He came into His kingdom.

The other thief asked to be saved, but only from his predicament. He received no promises and he's not in paradise.

 

[ember]

In fairness to SeaBass, that's actually not what he said. His actual comment was parsed and the intent of it was thereby greatly altered.

I don't find SeaBass very fair...listen, he has distorted more posts then you have time to read

Ignore that, if you have time to read, go back and read...

Better yet, are you his lawyer?


Careful...your nose is going to get itself tweaked if you keep trying to straighten out everyone on here

I suppose now you will turn your attention to me.....well....

 

[purgedconscience]

I don't find SeaBass very fair...listen, he has distorted more posts then you have time to read

Ignore that, if you have time to read, go back and read...

Better yet, are you his lawyer?


Careful...your nose is going to get itself tweaked if you keep trying to straighten out everyone on here

I suppose now you will turn your attention to me.....well....

If you call asking professing Christians to be honest trying to straighten out everyone on here, then, yes, I fully intend to do the same. Would you rather that I just ignore slanders, false accusations and distortions of what people have actually said and let people potentially be misled by the same? I will if I detect that people are stiff-necked and hard-hearted, but hopefully it won't come to that and people who profess to know Christ will actually walk in truth and sincerity and the meekness of true godly wisdom.

By the way, Jesus is SeaBass' lawyer if he belongs to Christ. You wouldn't Him to cross-examine you, would you? Something to think about.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No one can carry a single sin into heaven.

Acts 5:1-11. Ananias and Sapphira lied.

. . . thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God . . . Acts 5:4

Does the scripture say they went to heaven or hell or are you assuming they went to hell?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

How many infractions (minor or major) can a Christian commit before God would keep him out of heaven? Or has the Christian been given a license to commit innumerable infractions (minor or major) with those infractions have no effect, impact upon his entering heaven?

(Is there such a thing with God as minor and major sins or are all sins the same with God?)

https://youtu.be/bZH13wFGffg

 

[kennethcadwell]

. . . thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God . . . Acts 5:4

Does the scripture say they went to heaven or hell or are you assuming they went to hell?

Anybody who studies the Word of God and what Jesus said about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will know exactly where these two from Acts 5 went, and it was not salvation.

This passage is one of many that shows blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is more then just simply unbelief.
Apostle Paul clearly says believers can still grieve, deny the guidance, and deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit which is all part of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Because that person would be denying purpose of the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit was sent to do more then just seal us tell the day of redemption. He is to keep us walking properly in the faith for those who obey His guidance as our free will is not taken away.

If we had no free will as some try to teach then God, Lord Jesus, and the Apostle Paul all three would not have said we are given the ability to choose who we will serve. Serving the Lord which means walking in the Spirit leads to eternal life, and serving the flesh which means being carnally minded or sinful leads to death in the lake of fire.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I voted no, but this is a yes and no question......................


I voted no because the Lord Jesus clearly says unless you repent you will perish, which means no salvation.
(Luke 13:3)

Also the Lord Jesus said if you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven, which means no forgiveness of others you will not receive remission for your sins.
(Matthew 6:14-15)



If you are not given remission of your sins by the Lord Jesus then you will not get salvation, as nobody who is enmity to God will be allowed in heaven. We are only reconciled by receiving the remission of our sins by repenting of them.....




This though then is where the yes answer comes from, and I believe by the bible it is the only of two ways.
That is if a person is walking properly by the faith for most of their life, and at the end of their life something bad takes place causing them to sin in their final minutes of life. I believe in this instance the Lord will have mercy on them because the Lord said He would have mercy on who He will have mercy on, so we can not say this person is condemned or you take the mercy out of the hands of the Lord.

The other way a person can go to heaven in unrepented sin is if they have a mental disability to where they can not comprehend/understand right from wrong. I do not believe the Lord would hold that against them.....

 

[dcontroversal]

In fairness to SeaBass, that's actually not what he said. His actual comment was parsed and the intent of it was thereby greatly altered.

Parsed or not is irrelevant...let me show you the difference....

God is not a God of love.....

God is not only a God of love, but........

Words mean everything and the way you say something or phrase something means everything!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Anybody who studies the Word of God and what Jesus said about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will know exactly where these two from Acts 5 went, and it was not salvation.

This passage is one of many that shows blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is more then just simply unbelief.
Apostle Paul clearly says believers can still grieve, deny the guidance, and deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit which is all part of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Because that person would be denying purpose of the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit was sent to do more then just seal us tell the day of redemption. He is to keep us walking properly in the faith for those who obey His guidance as our free will is not taken away.

If we had no free will as some try to teach then God, Lord Jesus, and the Apostle Paul all three would not have said we are given the ability to choose who we will serve. Serving the Lord which means walking in the Spirit leads to eternal life, and serving the flesh which means being carnally minded or sinful leads to death in the lake of fire.

What attribute did they contribute to God that blasphemed his name? What was spoken "against the Holy Spirit"?
They lied to God . . . Period. That is what scripture says - They will be judged by God in the end - no need to read any more into it than is there.

Yes, we can "grieve" the Holy Spirit . . What is it to grieve someone? - Make them unhappy, make them disappointed . . I am sure that sometimes God is disappointed/unhappy with some of the things that we do - but still - nothing separates us from the love of God - no fault or failure stops God from loving us and encouraging us - just as we as earthly parents feel about our kids.

 

[SeaBass]

what absolute rubbish. There is no such thing as a 'group Christian.' People are sanctified individually, not as a group. Although clearly a number of sanctified Christians make up a sanctified group.

Just think of the motley group of Christians at Corinth with all their sins and weaknesses. But Paul described them as 'sanctified in Christ Jesus.



Rubbish. The moment a person comes to Jesus Christ he/she is sanctified in Christ for ever. He is made unto us sanctification (1 Cor 1.30). we are sanctified ones (1 Cor 1.2). He is one of the elect who have been sanctified by the Spirit unto the obedience of Jesus Christ, and the sprinkling of His blood (1 Pet 1.2).

Each Christian is spoke of as a 'saint' - a sanctified one. (Phil 4.21). He has an inheritance among all those who have been sanctified by faith in Him. Group sanctification which is not personal is a chimera. a myth.



Jesus deals with us one by one as individuals. There is no such things as a sanctified group unless you are referring to a group of sanctified ones. Once Jesus has sanctified an individual he is sanctified for ever.

So you are saying that if all leave the group then there is still a sanctified group consisting of no one? You only have to spell it out to show how ridiculous it is.



As with the idea of being saved sanctification is spoken of in a number of ways:

I have been sanctified once for all (1 Cr 6.11) and therefore am totally acceptable to God.

I have been sanctified and therefore now am sanctified (Heb 10.14).

I am in process of sanctification, I am 'being sanctified'. 'This is the will of God, even your sanctification'.

One day I will be wholly sanctified.

By my response to God I can sanctify myself to His service (2 Tim 2.21).




Yes they have been sanctified once for all.

1 Cor 10.12 does not refer to 'falling away'. It refers to falling through pride, tripping up. A sanctified person can trip up. But he does not cease to be one of Christ's sanctified one.




Show me where they were described as sanctified. Any church is made up of real Christians and nominal ones. Also show me where it says they were lost. They may well have been of that number who die at God's hand so that they may not be condemned with the world (1 Cor 11.30-32).

Some of you have such a small vindictive God.

You do not believe there is such a thing as a group that is called by the name "Christian"?

The disciples in Antioch were first called Christian. What does not exist is an individual outside the group Christian, ie, a non-Christian but is sanctified. Those that are "in Christ" are sanctified. The group Christians are those that are in Christ and sanctified but one can fall from Christ, fall from being a Christian and no longer be sanctified. A Christian that refuses to repent of his sins fall from Christ.

No verse says an individual is sanctified unconditionally or can remain sanctified unconditionally...no such phantom verse exists. No Christian can be so proud to think he will get one of his sins through the gates of heaven.

 

[SeaBass]

What verse said they went to hell.....it is obvious you guys are ignorant of the fact that God uses physical death as a form of punishment, but does not necessarily equate to spiritual death and being cast into the lake of fire......such as the fornicating brother who was a member of the Corinthian church......the truth is simple...you and your buddy believe a gospel which has no power to save and that is why you are blind to so much truth as it takes actually being born again to understand the word....as long as you trust into yourself, your works, your water and sinless perfectionism you both with remain blind as bats without echo location!

The verses that teach lying and tempting God are sinful are the ones that teach those that do such things will be lost.

Where's the phantom verse that say those who unrepentantly lie and tempt God's Spirit are saved?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins hath quickened us together with Christ, (for by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Eph. 2:4-6

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of HIS glory. (can't resist - have to go on) . . . . That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, FAR above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion and every name that is named not only in this world, but also in that which is to come And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body the fullness of him that filleth all in all. Eph. 1:13,14; 17-23

Praise be to God!!! Now that is edification!!

P.S. Posted before in "God loves the sinner; hates the sin: Once we are born again - we belong to God - we are sealed until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30) . . . we are seated in heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) . . . we are joint heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17) . . . we have a place reserved in heaven (1 Peter 1:4) . . you do notice that all these are said in the "past tense" as if it is already accomplished? It is an idiom (figure of speech) used for when a future event may be spoken of in the past tense in order to emphasize that it will absolutely come to pass.

 

[Bookends]

The man made teaching of eternal security says salvation is UNconditional. that the Christian cannot lose his salvation under ANY condition.

The only condition I see is abiding in Christ. If you abide in Christ, you are eternally secure. Outside of Christ, well, no, there is no guarantee.

 

[purgedconscience]

Parsed or not is irrelevant...let me show you the difference....

God is not a God of love.....

God is not only a God of love, but........

Words mean everything and the way you say something or phrase something means everything!

Personally, I believe that God is more than a God of love in that He is love and not just a God of love. Also, as I already mentioned, I see no need to make a distinction as SeaBass did between God's love and justice as I see perfect harmony in the two. How can One be love and not be just? Like I said, I'm not SeaBass' apologist, but I am just asking that people be properly represented in relation to what they've actually said. Surely that's not an unreasonable request.

 

[JaumeJ]

No amount of individuals will ever decide truth by a vote. God is the Source of all truth.

I cannot speak for others, however if anyone who has come to Christ in spirit and truth will be perfected on the Day God finishes the work He has begun in him, myself included.

The law, though still effective, is no longer engraved in stone with no recourse. Jesus Christ has taught us this, those who hear Him.

Now the law is engrved on the flesh tablets of the hearts of all who believe Jesus, thus if any die imperfect, or having sinned, the mercy which is now contained in that laaw on fleshy tablets makes any lingering wrongs, faults or sins uinable to accuse us. We have a constant Mediator between us and God, That Priest after teh order of Melchizedek.

We do not sin deliberately now, and our Judge, Who came to forgive, knows our frame.

 

[purgedconscience]

The only condition I see is abiding in Christ. If you abide in Christ, you are eternally secure. Outside of Christ, well, no, there is no guarantee.

That's what I believe as well.

 

[dcontroversal]

The verses that teach lying and tempting God are sinful are the ones that teach those that do such things will be lost.

Where's the phantom verse that say those who unrepentantly lie and tempt God's Spirit are saved?

There are NO verses which state that they went to hell....that is a man made false doctrine by all who are ignorant of eternal security.....In Ephesians the brothers are called SAINTS by Paul and he also tells them to not LIE to each other, steal from each other etc. and they are identified as the saved children of God....you can your other buddies can forget it....there are NO verses which state they ended up in hell period...and while I am at it....for the other one who believes you can lose salvation.....blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is UNBELIEF and while in unbelief the blood cannot be applied which is an unforgivable state!

 

[dcontroversal]

Personally, I believe that God is more than a God of love in that He is love and not just a God of love. Also, as I already mentioned, I see no need to make a distinction as SeaBass did between God's love and justice as I see perfect harmony in the two. How can One be love and not be just? Like I said, I'm not SeaBass' apologist, but I am just asking that people be properly represented in relation to what they've actually said. Surely that's not an unreasonable request.

I totally agree and even though this may be the case in the immediate context you will find that he and a few others will consistently twist what you say, add to what you say, say you said something that you did not say, imply that you mean this or that etc. on a regular basis and that is probably why this whole charade came about.........