Young Earth Creation. Does it matter what you believe?

[eternally-gratefull]

No not because of what he believes, because of the way he just spams it over and over and over and over and over and throws out insults like he is superior to anyone that doesn't agree with his views, and also tries to put one member against another frequently (the worst thing in my opinion, trying to cause trouble within the body), from my view he is obviously trying to cause trouble plain and simple. It's his actions that are the reasoning behind the surprise he hasn't been banned, not his belief. There are many here, atheist, Catholics and others, that can be civil and don't present themselves as a deaf broken record, that will discuss things and not spam the heck out of many threads with the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. See the difference?

Amen and Amen, I could not have said it any better

 

[Utah]

No not because of what he believes, because of the way he just spams it over and over and over and over and over and throws out insults like he is superior to anyone that doesn't agree with his views, and also tries to put one member against another frequently (the worst thing in my opinion, trying to cause trouble within the body), from my view he is obviously trying to cause trouble plain and simple. It's his actions that are the reasoning behind the surprise he hasn't been banned, not his belief. There are many here, atheist, Catholics and others, that can be civil and don't present themselves as a deaf broken record, that will discuss things and not spam the heck out of many threads with the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. See the difference?

Jack can't even get his own age right (98) and we're supposed to take his word on the age of Earth? LOL.

 

[tourist]

Jack can't even get his own age right (98) and we're supposed to take his word on the age of Earth? LOL.

Yeah, he seems older than 98.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

This is almost too good to be true...and you fell right into it...

The age of the world can be determined entirely independent of your theology.

However, you, as a YEC, want to force the 6K figure (you're not even sure on that because you don't know whether to use the MT or the LXX in deriving a summation), on the age of the world....and then you become discouraged when the sciences cannot line-up.

OEC's, on the other hand, do not for look for a predetermined Biblical summation number - we merely look at how science matches what was already stated in scripture.

Simple...

you completely failed to respond to my point...instead i get this post that consists almost entirely of 'straw man' arguments and other dishonesty...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Re: Run from it...

Again...

All you are doing is making a peanut butter smear generalization with a few buzz words thrown in for good measure.

Quit stalling and provide your very BEST googled SPECIFIC example for cross examination.

Generalizations don't cut it...and most assuredly will not convince anyone except your back-patters...

i specifically mentioned a specific point of a specific old earth creationist's theory...namely that of hugh ross...that is not a generalization...

is there a reason -you- can't google what everyone else already knows is hugh ross' position on neanderthals?

on principle i tend not to do homework for the intellectually lazy...stop with your time wasting tactics and -actually respond to the points that were made-

although this seems like the primary old earth creationist strategy...they are incompetent on the science so all they can do is misdirect...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Since I've learned what I've learned through the Bible, my Dead Guys, and evolutionists, I'm not up on the creationist lingo, so dumb question alert:
What are Day Age Creationists?

day age creationists are people who hold to the mistaken belief that all you have to do to harmonize genesis 1 with modern geology and paleontology is to stretch out the days so that each day lasts millions or billions of years...

 

[JackH]

No, I want him banned because he is on a mission to destroy someone (namely Mr Hovind)

I'm glad you called Dr. Dino Mr. Hovind since his PhD dissertation is such a joke.

Destroy him?

Did I help Dr. Dino commit numerous felonies such that he has been incarcerated in a federal prison for more than 8 years?

Did I help Dr. Dino prepare his speech that that the U.S. government was behind 9/11 and the Oklahoma City bombing?

Did I advise Dr. Dino on his creation nonsense that prompted even your major YEC organizations to rebuke him?

I don't think so.

The reason I have to repeat this totally factual information is so that it sinks in with some of you YECs.

In the hopes that some of you YECs will quit painting him as some sort of martyr and offering him as the source of much of anything that is credible.

Is Kent Hovind mentioned in the very first post on this thread?

Did the person who started the thread also say on another thread: "Dr. Hound is a godly man who talked about the IRS in his seminar. They are the one who put him in jail. He is an innocent man."

Dr. Hound is a good name for him, actually. His YEC nonsense is lame as a three-legged dog.

So Dr. Dino (Kent Hovind) is not fair game for discussion?

LOL.

Dr. Dino does mention the IRS in his videos. He encourages people to avoid paying taxes that they owe, like he did.

Hey RachelBibleStudent, what is your best anti-Dr. Dino post, based on facts of course. I have seen some real good ones from you.

 

[mwc68]

No not because of what he believes, because of the way he just spams it over and over and over and over and over and throws out insults like he is superior to anyone that doesn't agree with his views, and also tries to put one member against another frequently (the worst thing in my opinion, trying to cause trouble within the body), from my view he is obviously trying to cause trouble plain and simple. It's his actions that are the reasoning behind the surprise he hasn't been banned, not his belief. There are many here, atheist, Catholics and others, that can be civil and don't present themselves as a deaf broken record, that will discuss things and not spam the heck out of many threads with the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. See the difference?

I understand, i jumped the gun on that one, sorry

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you completely failed to respond to my point...instead i get this post that consists almost entirely of 'straw man' arguments and other dishonesty...

he is another one people should put on ignore.

 

[BettyAnn]

what do you think of the notion that YEC as a popular dogmatic belief came directly from Ellen G. White?

here's about 6 pages of reading explaining the connection:

Adventist Origins of Young Earth Creationism


​

not that the idea completely originated with her, because both literal and allegorical interpretations of the Genesis "days" can be found in church writings going all the way back to 1st century AD. but as a dogma that should separate believers from "imposters" -- that's a relatively new thing that can be traced to Adventism and in particular to Mme White's visions.

But you forget about Jews in that. My birth family is Jewish and largely still practicing,a good majority are Genesis literalists young earth believers. It's been accepted by literal Jews for thousands of years however you don't find many Jewish scholars putting numbers on things outside of historical dates and family ages tho.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

All ancient genealogies jumped generations. The number of ten generations from Adam to Noah, and Noah to Abraham must be seen as suspicious from a literal point of view. Lists of ten generations of kings were common in and around Abraham's time. And they ALL omitted generations.

Furthermore the ages given are clearly not literal. Notice how many end in 0 or 5. Had they been literal that would not have been so. The truth is that to the ancients the numbers probably had some deeper significance.

It is not without interest to note that Adam died 70 (the number of divine perfection) short of 1000 (the perfect age).

That as in many ancient genealogies the seventh was a 'heavenly man' and his age equates to the number of days in a year.

That Lamech, the father of Noah died at 777. (His parallel Cainite was also closely involved in sevens).

That Noah was 600 when the flood came and died at 950, both nice round numbers, while being 500 when he had his sons..

I realise this will be unacceptable to some 'modern' Americans (who all know what God meant without any question). But it does not give the impression of literal and exact numbers.

while i think most young earth creationists would not strongly object in principle to the idea that the genesis genealogies used round numbers...the genealogies in genesis 5 and 11 don't seem to indicate any extensive use of round or symbolic numbers...

while acknowledging the numbers you mentioned...i will point out that the following numbers -also- appear in genesis 5...

807
912
162
962
187
782
969
182

and in genesis 11...

403
34
209
32
207
29
119

none of these numbers appear to indicate any particular effort at rounding or symbolism...or for that matter any intent other than recording them factually as they actually were...

it might be interesting to calculate the probability of the sequence of numbers in genesis 5 and 11 appearing as a result of random chance...as opposed to intentional manipulation by the author...but i hated that kind of probability calculation in school so i am not going to be the one to do it

i also want to point out that the ten generation symmetry between genesis 5 and genesis 11 is not really there...here are the list in genesis 5 compared with the list in genesis 11...

adam..................shem
seth...................arphaxad
enosh.................shelah
kenan.................eber
mahalalel.............peleg
jared...................reu
enoch.................serug
methuselah..........nahor
lamech................terah
noah...................(no counterpart)

there are ten generations in genesis 5 and actually only -nine- generations in genesis 11... insisting on counting abram in the genesis 11 list doesn't help because then you would also have to include shem in the genesis 5 list...which would only make it a slightly different mismatch of eleven and ten generations... and you can't insist on counting noah in the genesis 11 list because then you would be double counting noah...and more importantly noah doesn't actually appear in genesis 11...

i learned this point about the number of generations from dr. travis freeman's chapter 'do the genesis 5 and 11 genealogies contain gaps?' in the book 'coming to grips with genesis: biblical authority and the age of the earth' edited by dr. terry mortenson and dr. thane ury...

finally i will point out that the ages listed in the genesis genealogies form a pattern that shows a decline in lifespan after the flood that is a -very- good fit for an exponential decay curve... the fit is too good to be due to chance...and we can also rule out fabrication because this kind of mathematics was not known until the 1600s...

 

[JackH]

But you forget about Jews in that. My birth family is Jewish and largely still practicing,a good majority are Genesis literalists young earth believers. It's been accepted by literal Jews for thousands of years however you don't find many Jewish scholars putting numbers on things outside of historical dates and family ages tho.

That article "Adventist Origins of Young Earth Creationism" you refer specifies Christians in the first paragraph, so not considering Jews is not surprising.

Incidentally, this paragraph in the article sure hits the nail on the head"

"Today we find the young-earth creationist literature full of claims that fossils were laid down by Noah’s flood; that a “vapor canopy” made the pre-Flood earth more habitable; and that modern geology is a rationalization of evolution. Despite what many believers might think, these claims are not based on the Bible, but can be traced to the visions of a 19th-century prophetess, and her disciple, a remarkable amateur geologist. These ideas passed from the visions of White, into the texts of Price, into the young-earth classic by Whitcomb and Morris, The Genesis Flood. And from there they have spread throughout the modern young-earth movement where they can be found on the websites of Answers in Genesis, the Institute for Creation Research and even Dr. Dino."

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

The creation verbs employed on 'Day 4' do not warrant that the sun and moon were created at that time....if they had been, then we would expect that the verb 'bara' would have been utilized.....but it was not...

the hebrew word for the making of the sun and moon and stars on day 4 is 'asa'...

'asa' is also used in genesis 1:26 when God expresses his intention of making humans...but genesis 1:27 then says God created humans and uses the term 'bara' to refer to that creation...

so the two terms are synonyms...you are insisting on a distinction that the text simply does not make...

the two terms are also used synonymously in genesis 2:4...

 

[mwc68]

he is another one people should put on ignore.

I knew Rachel several yrs ago through the bible study chat room. I respect her opinion and suggest people should ignore you!

 

[BettyAnn]

That article "Adventist Origins of Young Earth Creationism" you refer specifies Christians in the first paragraph, so not considering Jews is not surprising.

Incidentally, this paragraph in the article sure hits the nail on the head"

"Today we find the young-earth creationist literature full of claims that fossils were laid down by Noah’s flood; that a “vapor canopy” made the pre-Flood earth more habitable; and that modern geology is a rationalization of evolution. Despite what many believers might think, these claims are not based on the Bible, but can be traced to the visions of a 19th-century prophetess, and her disciple, a remarkable amateur geologist. These ideas passed from the visions of White, into the texts of Price, into the young-earth classic by Whitcomb and Morris, The Genesis Flood. And from there they have spread throughout the modern young-earth movement where they can be found on the websites of Answers in Genesis, the Institute for Creation Research and even Dr. Dino."

That I didn't know which is odd because husband and I were Adventist for About two years and we never heard of any creationis doctrine outside of the very basics. But then the doctrine we were taught was totally changed by a new preachor who took our preacher's position over so he might have gone in to that after we were gone.

 

[Bowman]

you completely failed to respond to my point...instead i get this post that consists almost entirely of 'straw man' arguments and other dishonesty...

Then ignore it....like you do with other posts which make you 'think'...

 

[Bowman]

Re: Run from it...

i specifically mentioned a specific point of a specific old earth creationist's theory...namely that of hugh ross...that is not a generalization...

is there a reason -you- can't google what everyone else already knows is hugh ross' position on neanderthals?

on principle i tend not to do homework for the intellectually lazy...stop with your time wasting tactics and -actually respond to the points that were made-

although this seems like the primary old earth creationist strategy...they are incompetent on the science so all they can do is misdirect...

You're making progress.

You've narrowed-down your blanket assertion down to Hugh Ross and neanderthals....now what?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

How many thousands of research papers in reputable peer-reviewed scientific journals do you want me to cite where it indicates that specific dinosaur fossils that are the subject of the paper are more than 65 million years old?

Can you show me any that indicate the dinosaur fossil is less than 6,000 years old?

i want you to cite some research papers from reputable peer reviewed scientific journals that claim that God used evolution like the theistic evolutionists claim or that God created organisms in an incremental sequence mimicking evolution as the progressive creationists claim...i would even settle for a paper that attempts to jumble up the geologic sequence to make it agree with day age creationist claims...or a paper that posits a 100% extinction event like the gap theorists claim...

those are all the main old earth creationist theories...and the claims that set them apart from atheistic evolutionism... surely if old earth creationism is really 'science' then the distinguishing characteristics of old earth models should be scientifically testable...

because if your models cannot be distinguished from other models through scientific methods...then old earth creationism really isn't anything other than pseudoscience attempting to piggyback on the scientific support for another theory...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Can you show me any that indicate the dinosaur fossil is less than 6,000 years old?

oh and i almost forgot about this...

i can cite a research paper from a reputable peer reviewed scientific journal that reports the finding of DNA in dinosaur fossils...i can also cite a research paper from another reputable peer reviewed scientific journal that reports that DNA does not last more than 6.8 million years...

therefore the dinosaur fossils from the first paper are not 70 million years old...

 

[atwhatcost]

Not so with Adam's chrono-genealogy, but with say Jesus genealogy, yes, there are some men missing. Early Genesis doesn't necessarily list the eldest child in each family, but only lists the ones essential to God's narrative for humanity. That said Adam's chrono-genealogy lists the ages of each from birth to death, birth to death and so on. There's no real wiggle-room.

I have a bit of a spiritual claustrophobia. The second you say "no wiggle room" I want to wiggle. lol

I'll trust you anyway.