POLL: The Deity of Christ

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The Deity of Christ?


  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
0
Anything Organic in exclusive to the natural world, not the spiritual world. This is why it is called the spiritual realm. That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit - not organic.
What would be the problem if God chose to dwell inside an ORGANIC body, holy as the Lord´s Jesus body was on earth?

I do believe God was inside the organic body of the Lord Jesus and, there (that holy temple) God ministered to those Jesus ORGANIC body was healing or teaching.

In fact, before He died, the Lord Jesus was saying -in other ways- God was leaving the temple of his body, as you might read Psalms 22 or Mat_27:46

As long as THE SPIRIT of God was inside the organic body of Jesus, God performed His miracles, witnessing about His Son. Please, do not believe me, but what He said:


Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

And, next questions could be (just for me):

a) Was the Lord Jesus inside His Father´s Spirit? or
b) Inside His Father´s ORGANIC body?

God is Spirit (Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. )
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Notice that when Jesus was on the cross He cried out to God..............

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Also here he prays to good for those persecuting Him.........

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
 
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
0
If all Christianity was statistically represented in a "LARGE" number or picture, in a VOTING PROCESS like this, I don´t know what would say unbelievers... 63 ppl voting? :p

Jesus.png
 
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
0
Notice that when Jesus was on the cross He cried out to God..............

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Also here he prays to good for those persecuting Him.........

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Absolutelly!

When God (His HS) was with Him, Jesus needed not to cry aloud, with the exception He need to teach His followers a lesson, such like that, with Lazarus:

Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me.


Joh 11:42 I know that you always answer my prayers. But I said this, so that the people here would believe that you sent me."
 
S

senzi

Guest
Here is the first passage that shook me:

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

If we take the oneness of Jesus with the Father to be the line of proof for the Trinity, then what we see here is Christ praying that the Church would join the Godhead.
Are we to become God? I struggled with this, until I began to ponder other understandings of unity.
My answer was the Spirit.
It unified Christ with the Father, and unifies us with Christ.

If you ask many why Christ spoke the words of God on this earth they will reply. Because he is God. They do not give the correct biblical answer which is. Becaus the spirit was on him without limit. The holy spirit is the key to all of this, but for many, especially on sit es such as these he is given less prominence than he should be. The scripture you quoted show Christ is onw with the father through the spirit. That is why Christ is the word of God, for the Holy spirit fully resides in him. In the Ot God spoke through the prophets. How? Because the holy spirit came upon then.
The holy spirit resides in every christian, therefore we can be in father and son as they are in each other. And we can be one as they are one. Oneness for christians can only come through the holy spirit.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
UMMM One of the blonds is here. :p

This is one doctrine I go running out into the night screaming because I are confusalted on it. :p

I am not sure how to reconcile verses like this

Numbers 23

19"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Jesus over and over again makes it very plain that He is the son of man.

Matthew 17

[SUP]13 [/SUP]When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?

[SUP]14 [/SUP]They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And I tell you that you are Peter,[SUP][b][/SUP] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[SUP][c][/SUP] will not overcome it.[SUP]19 [/SUP]I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[SUP][d][/SUP] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[SUP][e][/SUP] loosed in heaven.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.



Jesus also said this

John 20

17Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"


Paul says this

1 Corinthians 15

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For he “has put everything under his feet.”[SUP][c][/SUP] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Now that is not to say there are other things that seem to point the other way. It's just at this point I am not sure HOW to reconcile all the verses that on the surface seem to contradict each other. :p

So for now I will do as John told us to do here

John 20

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But these are written that you may believe[SUP][b][/SUP] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Maybe this will help a bit:

Acts20:28
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
Maybe this will help a bit:

Acts20:28
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
and:

Matthew 1:22-23
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
If all Christianity was statistically represented in a "LARGE" number or picture, in a VOTING PROCESS like this, I don´t know what would say unbelievers... 63 ppl voting? :p

View attachment 121756
i just hope 93% dont start thinking we should all bow down and worship a tree or a rabbits foot, then where will we be?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
As for the relationship between the two,
if we can have the mind of Christ, then the body and mind are separable... unless you agree with transubstanciation.
God is not of flesh, making such divisions even less questionable.
I think the mind of Christ just means we think like him, and are united with him.

If I have the mind of my father, I agree with what he says thinks and does, and not only agree, I follow him in what he does (ie my agreement is not just mental, but is proven by my actions.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Here is the first passage that shook me:

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

If we take the oneness of Jesus with the Father to be the line of proof for the Trinity, then what we see here is Christ praying that the Church would join the Godhead.
Are we to become God? I struggled with this, until I began to ponder other understandings of unity.
My answer was the Spirit.
It unified Christ with the Father, and unifies us with Christ.
yes we are one. As paul said, the church is a buidling, being built on the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone. Or a body, which each part having its function, With christ as the head.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
yes we are one. As paul said, the church is a buidling, being built on the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone. Or a body, which each part having its function, With christ as the head.
just to add, I just saw you said it was the spirit which unifies, I agree and disagree, The spirit is the one who does all the work (conviction) and all the work (saving) in us, but neither the spirit, nor the son, could do anything unless the father ok'd it. thus in reality it is the father who unifies.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
614
113
70
Alabama
This is all surprisingly comforting; this post, and the others.
You have stuck to the facts and the Word thus far, and there is no argument that can sustain such power as the Word.
If you have more on the text, or on the subject, please continue.
I think the primary issue that must be addressed before anyone can learn to develop a biblically constructed theology is to first understand the nature and use of language and how deeply this effects our perception of God and how we tend to map individual perceptions of God onto the biblical text. Would you be interested in in starting here and we can build everything from there. Like you, I too have answers about the nature of God that are yet to be resolved.
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
904
17
18
I think the primary issue that must be addressed before anyone can learn to develop a biblically constructed theology is to first understand the nature and use of language and how deeply this effects our perception of God and how we tend to map individual perceptions of God onto the biblical text. Would you be interested in in starting here and we can build everything from there. Like you, I too have answers about the nature of God that are yet to be resolved.
Yes, this is a fine place to build from,
And the blueprint is already drawn out :)
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
614
113
70
Alabama
Yes, this is a fine place to build from,
And the blueprint is already drawn out :)

Very good. Let's begin with comparing God and the finite mind of man and how human language reflects an unbreechable barrier between the world of man and the unseen world of God.
Language exists initially only in the mind. The tongue can only communicate what the mind is able to conceive. In order for one to communicate through the medium of language, one must first be able to attach language to an idea. For example, any time we think about a person or an object our mind automatically creates an image to correspond with that object as a frame of reference. This is simply how the mind works. When we talk to another person about our favorite car, our mind creates an image of that car. We are then able to connect language to that image and effectively communicate that image to the other person. If the other person has had somewhat similar experiences with cars then both parties have a common frame of reference as a foundation for communication. If, on the other hand, we attempt to talk about something with which we have no experience or familiarity we find we are unable to create an accurate image of that unfamiliar object in our mind. As a result, we are unable to connect language to the idea and effectively communicate the idea to someone else. One would not be able to explain the concept of a car to someone who has never seen a car or even knew that such a thing existed. The receiver would not have the language available to create that image in his mind and the communication process would quite naturally break down. The hearer receives the description as a string of words but is unable to formulate the concept of a car in his mind. We simply cannot comprehend or communicate accurately that which we have no language to describe.

When we talk about God, our mind is unable to formulate an accurate image since we have no experience with God at the sensory level. We simply have no point of reference from which to envision God. Every individual, despite cultural or religious exposure, will envision God in their own mind according to his or her concept of God, which is invariably formed out of one’s exposure to various religious teachings and cultural experiences. We do this because our mind must have some frame of reference to which to connect language. Since we are unable to connect our senses to the unseen world, we connect what is unseen to the natural world. We can only create a mental image of God according to our own individual points of reference. Idolatry creates god in the image of things that are part of human experiences. This is precisely what Israel did when they came to Mt. Sinai. Moses had been their only visible iconic connection with the invisible God. When Moses disappeared for forty days, Israel decided to adopt a familiar image that they could corporately associate as God. What they did was create a familiar frame of reference. They created a god in the form of something with which they all had experience, the golden calf of Egypt. It seems that when visible representations are taken away, man will attempt to replace them in order to maintain some sense of connection with their idea of the unseen. In the Hebrew camp, there was a sense of abandonment and uncertainty. Since their only visible representation had disappeared, they replaced him with another. They turned to the natural world to create something they felt would give them a sense of continuity. Apart from a revelation from God about himself, man will always fall into some form of idolatry. The farther away man gets from revelation the more naturalistic and perverted his image of God will become, Deuteronomy 4:15-19.

How we understand ourselves and interpret our interaction with the world is directly proportionate to our understanding of God and his involvement in the natural dimension. The reality of God and our perception of God will always be two different things. God will always transcend what man says that he is and man will never be able to grasp all that God says he is. The personality of God is not fully accessible based on the parameters of human language or reason. God never exists on the same plain as man. He always transcends the natural world and stands outside of man’s ability to rationalize. We cannot conceptualize God based on language that is formed out of the natural world. As a result, man is incapable of developing a language use that will allow him to formulate a legitimate understanding of God. The only language use upon which we can rely is a revealed grammar. God uses scripture to provide a linguistic link to the mind of man. Although scripture allows us to see God through the eyes of faith, we are still unable to understand fully all that scripture tells us about God. Since this is true, how will a representational study of scripture help to develop a clearer understanding of God?

One barrier we must confront if we are to approach this study on the nature of God less encumbered must be that of our own intelligence. Since our intelligence is something that we routinely rely upon to help us understand certain things about the natural world, this will not be an easy thing to bring under control. Although it serves us well in this respect and fulfills a proper created function, it will not serve us well as a requisite for understanding God. To understand God, we must look beyond the limitations of human intelligence into revelation. Human intelligence operates from the platform of pragmatic experience. Faith, on the other hand, is grounded in things that are unseen and operates outside experiential parameters. While our intelligence has an assigned place in our connection with the universe, it must be rendered subordinate to the intelligence of God. God does not call us to intellectualism but to faith. If human intelligence were in any way sufficient to understand things of the non-natural world, what need would we have for revelation? Human intelligence that is unconditioned by revelation will always prove a hindrance to man’s understanding of God.Therefore, we must bring the human intelligence factor under the control of the superior intelligence of the Creator. God will not prostrate himself to man’s image of who he believes God to be. If we are to develop a clearer understanding of God, it must be on God’s terms.

I will break here to offer you time for questions or for anything in this post you would like to challenge or discuss further.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Here is the first passage that shook me:

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

If we take the oneness of Jesus with the Father to be the line of proof for the Trinity, then what we see
here is Christ praying that the Church would join the Godhead.
Are we to become God? I struggled with this, until I began to ponder other understandings of unity.
My answer was the Spirit.
It unified Christ with the Father, and unifies us with Christ.
We are co-heirs with Christ, we share his eternal inheritance and glory.

We will have a share in what he has.

The humanity of Christ is not deity, and the deity of Christ is not human, Christ is fully God and fully man in one being.
We will share what the humanity of Christ has

Eye has not seen, nor has ear heard what God has prepared for those who love him.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
No, I do not subscribe to transsubstantiation. When scripture speaks of Christians having the mind of Christ it is not talking about some type of supernatural transference to the Jesus' intellect into our minds. What it is talking about is Christians learning to think the way God thinks. This is what scripture is intended to do. Scripture is the representational form of the mind of God. It teaches to think the God thinks. This is the mind of Christ.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind (Ro 12:2).
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Trinity?

If that was hugely important to be known (an saved), the Lord Jesus would have developed it at lenght (at least in one parable)
Who made that rule?

Did he develop at length that he would die for the sin of those who believe in him, saving them from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)?

But I´m twisting what the RCC added (so briefly on MattMat_28:19 )

Isn´t it also rare He didn´t teach His disciples to pray "in those names" to, as the RCC teaches, making a cross on their head and foreheads?
Right, we do not pray to the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is as an illuminator of Christ, as the Candlestick was of the Showbread in the Holy Place.
The Holy Spirit applies the benefits of redemption purchased by Christ.
But we pray to the Father by and through the Mediator, Jesus Christ.

Are you Roman Catholic?
 
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Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
What would be the problem if God chose to dwell inside an ORGANIC body, holy as the Lord´s Jesus body was on earth?
God, the Holy Spirit dwells within all the sons of God.

I do believe God was inside the organic body of the Lord Jesus and, there (that holy temple) God ministered to those Jesus ORGANIC body was healing or teaching.

In fact, before He died, the Lord Jesus was saying -in other ways- God was leaving the temple of his body, as you might read Psalms 22 or Mat_27:46
His human spirit was separating from his human body, as will ours when we die.

However, Jesus voluntarily gave up his human spirit, it was not forced away by death.

As long as THE SPIRIT of God was inside the organic body of Jesus,
The Son himself was God.

God performed His miracles, witnessing about His Son. Please, do not believe me, but what He said:

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
And believers are in Christ, who is in the Father, so they also are in the Father.

And, next questions could be (just for me):

a) Was the Lord Jesus inside His Father´s Spirit? or
b) Inside His Father´s ORGANIC body?
The Father has no organic body.
Bodies are material, made of atoms and molecules.
The Father is spirit.
Spirits are not material, not physical, nor corporeal.
Spirits are immaterial, non-physical, bodyless.

God is Spirit (Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. )
Now go learn what spirit is.
 
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SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
904
17
18

Very good. Let's begin with comparing God and the finite mind of man and how human language reflects an unbreechable barrier between the world of man and the unseen world of God.
Language exists initially only in the mind. The tongue can only communicate what the mind is able to conceive. In order for one to communicate through the medium of language, one must first be able to attach language to an idea. For example, any time we think about a person or an object our mind automatically creates an image to correspond with that object as a frame of reference. This is simply how the mind works. When we talk to another person about our favorite car, our mind creates an image of that car. We are then able to connect language to that image and effectively communicate that image to the other person. If the other person has had somewhat similar experiences with cars then both parties have a common frame of reference as a foundation for communication. If, on the other hand, we attempt to talk about something with which we have no experience or familiarity we find we are unable to create an accurate image of that unfamiliar object in our mind. As a result, we are unable to connect language to the idea and effectively communicate the idea to someone else. One would not be able to explain the concept of a car to someone who has never seen a car or even knew that such a thing existed. The receiver would not have the language available to create that image in his mind and the communication process would quite naturally break down. The hearer receives the description as a string of words but is unable to formulate the concept of a car in his mind. We simply cannot comprehend or communicate accurately that which we have no language to describe.

When we talk about God, our mind is unable to formulate an accurate image since we have no experience with God at the sensory level. We simply have no point of reference from which to envision God. Every individual, despite cultural or religious exposure, will envision God in their own mind according to his or her concept of God, which is invariably formed out of one’s exposure to various religious teachings and cultural experiences. We do this because our mind must have some frame of reference to which to connect language. Since we are unable to connect our senses to the unseen world, we connect what is unseen to the natural world. We can only create a mental image of God according to our own individual points of reference. Idolatry creates god in the image of things that are part of human experiences. This is precisely what Israel did when they came to Mt. Sinai. Moses had been their only visible iconic connection with the invisible God. When Moses disappeared for forty days, Israel decided to adopt a familiar image that they could corporately associate as God. What they did was create a familiar frame of reference. They created a god in the form of something with which they all had experience, the golden calf of Egypt. It seems that when visible representations are taken away, man will attempt to replace them in order to maintain some sense of connection with their idea of the unseen. In the Hebrew camp, there was a sense of abandonment and uncertainty. Since their only visible representation had disappeared, they replaced him with another. They turned to the natural world to create something they felt would give them a sense of continuity. Apart from a revelation from God about himself, man will always fall into some form of idolatry. The farther away man gets from revelation the more naturalistic and perverted his image of God will become, Deuteronomy 4:15-19.

How we understand ourselves and interpret our interaction with the world is directly proportionate to our understanding of God and his involvement in the natural dimension. The reality of God and our perception of God will always be two different things. God will always transcend what man says that he is and man will never be able to grasp all that God says he is. The personality of God is not fully accessible based on the parameters of human language or reason. God never exists on the same plain as man. He always transcends the natural world and stands outside of man’s ability to rationalize. We cannot conceptualize God based on language that is formed out of the natural world. As a result, man is incapable of developing a language use that will allow him to formulate a legitimate understanding of God. The only language use upon which we can rely is a revealed grammar. God uses scripture to provide a linguistic link to the mind of man. Although scripture allows us to see God through the eyes of faith, we are still unable to understand fully all that scripture tells us about God. Since this is true, how will a representational study of scripture help to develop a clearer understanding of God?

One barrier we must confront if we are to approach this study on the nature of God less encumbered must be that of our own intelligence. Since our intelligence is something that we routinely rely upon to help us understand certain things about the natural world, this will not be an easy thing to bring under control. Although it serves us well in this respect and fulfills a proper created function, it will not serve us well as a requisite for understanding God. To understand God, we must look beyond the limitations of human intelligence into revelation. Human intelligence operates from the platform of pragmatic experience. Faith, on the other hand, is grounded in things that are unseen and operates outside experiential parameters. While our intelligence has an assigned place in our connection with the universe, it must be rendered subordinate to the intelligence of God. God does not call us to intellectualism but to faith. If human intelligence were in any way sufficient to understand things of the non-natural world, what need would we have for revelation? Human intelligence that is unconditioned by revelation will always prove a hindrance to man’s understanding of God.Therefore, we must bring the human intelligence factor under the control of the superior intelligence of the Creator. God will not prostrate himself to man’s image of who he believes God to be. If we are to develop a clearer understanding of God, it must be on God’s terms.

I will break here to offer you time for questions or for anything in this post you would like to challenge or discuss further.
No challenges yet.