Creflo Dollar's Jet

[PeterJens]

The only reason for the wealth you see in churches is because of technology, the wealth of science and how we have conquered natural problems.

When did any of this become Gods blessing of His people? All riches declare is someone has amassed wealth and normally that means exploitation, greed and power. Jesus warned against possessions as being a trap, limiting our ability to function properly, to have good relationships. Look around you, the same is true today as ever it was.

Loneliness is a key problem in our modern wealthy society because learning the life lessons of inter-dependency is hard when you do not have to care and can literally walk away from anyone who just upsets you a little bit. Suddenly you can find nobody knows you. Some famous people have died in their flats, not discovered for weeks, because they were so cut off.

Now comes the great white suited preacher, who says you can get more money and success than you can dream of, just sow money to them, and blessing will flow. Odd this is not the simple man, in plain cloths talking about doing your devotions to God in private, seeking righteousness, forgiveness and love with those you know and meet daily.

His message, people will hate you and reject you, persecute you and call you evil, because their deeds are evil and they wish to keep them hidden.

Yet these preachers preach to the world, and it loves them. Become as successful as you want, because that is Gods intention for you. Oddly sin, abuse, hypocracy, are not on their agenda, calling people to repent and get right with God and their friends, is not what they preach. So those who defend these hypocrites, you do not know Jesus or His gospel and should be ashamed, literally.

 

[Mitspa]

The only reason for the wealth you see in churches is because of technology, the wealth of science and how we have conquered natural problems.

When did any of this become Gods blessing of His people? All riches declare is someone has amassed wealth and normally that means exploitation, greed and power. Jesus warned against possessions as being a trap, limiting our ability to function properly, to have good relationships. Look around you, the same is true today as ever it was.

Loneliness is a key problem in our modern wealthy society because learning the life lessons of inter-dependency is hard when you do not have to care and can literally walk away from anyone who just upsets you a little bit. Suddenly you can find nobody knows you. Some famous people have died in their flats, not discovered for weeks, because they were so cut off.

Now comes the great white suited preacher, who says you can get more money and success than you can dream of, just sow money to them, and blessing will flow. Odd this is not the simple man, in plain cloths talking about doing your devotions to God in private, seeking righteousness, forgiveness and love with those you know and meet daily.

His message, people will hate you and reject you, persecute you and call you evil, because their deeds are evil and they wish to keep them hidden.

Yet these preachers preach to the world, and it loves them. Become as successful as you want, because that is Gods intention for you. Oddly sin, abuse, hypocracy, are not on their agenda, calling people to repent and get right with God and their friends, is not what they preach. So those who defend these hypocrites, you do not know Jesus or His gospel and should be ashamed, literally.

What "church" or group do you claim?

 

[Richie_2uk]

So we shouldn't say anything, as Christians, if there is evil going on in the church, keep our mouths shut, quietly and timidly pray the abuses will end, and we are to have no judgement in these matters? When people are made merchandise of and lies are taught, we're not to judge? Could you support that with scripture, please?

We are not to judge. but to help to correct. Matthew 7: 1. says Do not judge, or you too will be judged. Also in Luke 17: 3 says: Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

It does not say in the bible that we are to judge ones mistake, or on going sin. Judgement belongs to God. however we are to try correct our brother or sister away from the sin, and pray for them that they may turn to God for forgiveness.

I'm not saying all preachers are like that, But there is a culture were Some preachers may know they are going down hill, or losing faith and they jump on that band wagon were nothing else matters other than MONEY!. However, were'nt you once at that stage before you became Christian? wasn't everyone else for that matter? you asked God to forgive you for the sins you Done, thought and said all your life before you became Christian right? But how did you get saved if you are that is? someone has told you, and tried to correct you somewhere in your life right? So why can't we try to correct these preachers, help them see what they are doing is not right by God? rather judging people. Let God do the judging.

So to answer your question, I don't think we should say anything where judgement is involved, but we are to say and try to correct there wrongs. However, Creflo dollar has appologized and has seen the error. So why cant you forgive? You as in general, not you as personal.

So can you support your thoughts on forgiveness with Scripture please? thank you.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Now comes the great white suited preacher, who says you can get more money and success than you can dream of, just sow money to them, and blessing will flow. Odd this is not the simple man, in plain cloths talking about doing your devotions to God in private, seeking righteousness, forgiveness and love with those you know and meet daily.

His message, people will hate you and reject you, persecute you and call you evil, because their deeds are evil and they wish to keep them hidden.

Yet these preachers preach to the world, and it loves them. Become as successful as you want, because that is Gods intention for you. Oddly sin, abuse, hypocracy, are not on their agenda, calling people to repent and get right with God and their friends, is not what they preach. So those who defend these hypocrites, you do not know Jesus or His gospel and should be ashamed, literally.

Amen. You're very much going to the heart of the matter and proof of who they really are. Those doing an apologetic for these evil men have blinders on, in a very big way. You may be interested who these hucksters keep company with, of the usual suspects in the Bible,

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.

 

[JesusIsAll]

We are not to judge. but to help to correct. Matthew 7: 1. says Do not judge, or you too will be judged. Also in Luke 17: 3 says: Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Sorry, but I wasn't looking for perhaps around 10% scripture, then a lot of your own philosophy. The Bible is replete with admonitions against ear ticklers, false gospels, liars, fables, wolves in sheep's clothing, carnality, deceitfulness of riches, merchandising God, which you've entirely ignored, in favor of your own rhetoric. The Bible is replete with admonitions to judge righteously and discern evil, and to deal with it in the church, as well as the true gospel that should be preached. Your stance is ignoring too much of the Bible to bother with copying and pasting, not my intent to have to write a dissertation when people fail to recognize a large body of scripture that argues against them.

What little scripture you have used involves the "judge not" of unrighteous judgement, of no bearing on this conversation, and another verse that includes the word repent, which I've seen none of these charlatans do, rather Creflo wants him a jet and, like all of them, ever more consumption, which is very evil, something I may or may not get to in this thread, what is very damning of what they are doing. In any case, there is not forgiveness without repentance in Bible doctrine, so you've sort of blown your own premise of tolerance of evil, especially in the church, out of the water.

 

[PoetMary]

I see two main problems with these kinds of personality cults and doctrinal inventions:

1. Most people want to be sheep AND
2. Most people crave emotional experience over rational thought

And here step in the very slick, very perceptive "leaders." Since most people basically want to be told what to think and how to behave, all you need is someone who is a great public speaker and they'll quickly sign-up with that person. Additionally, since many people elevate "experience" over rational thought, they are subject to "leaders" who know how to emotionally manipulate people. They'll even couch their emotionalism in spiritual terms--if you rationally question these "leaders" you're "resisting the Spirit." You'll be encouraged to "submit to the Spirit."

These "leaders" set themselves up as almighty. The vast majority of them refuse to submit their financials to the many oversight groups that could provide a dispassionate view of how moneys are spent. It's all "trust me I'm being transparent" and "oh, btw, you don't want to be left behind when the Holy Spirit moves in a powerful way."

Thus, when you point out the problematic philosophical and theological underpinings of these folks, they engage in a lot of denial and rationalizing about these beliefs. That is, until they get burned in one of these ministries. Then suddenly they're "shocked" and "horrified" that their "leader" would do such a thing (adultery, misuse of funds, etc.)

Despite the sheer numbers of these folks that have been exposed, despite the continuing scandals that happen, despite the really blatant diversion from anything approximating the historic and biblical faith, people still flock to these "leaders."

Honestly, I often wonder why people don't wise up about this stuff.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Honestly, I often wonder why people don't wise up about this stuff.

Thank you for such a deeply thoughtful post! I've wondered the same and have thought it's like what all advertisers know, that people see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear, regardless truth, the itching ears to hear they're not to feel guilty, "I'm okay, you're okay!", with the lure of a gospel of health and wealth seductive and blinding. I think that, beyond lust for stuff and carnality, people most like to be told they're okay with God, without having to repent, a "have your cake and eat it too" syndrome, a big helping of blessings, but, "No thanks, will pass on the cross."

 

[Chica]

Creflo (Augustus) Dollar:

He is just one more in a long line of Christian scavengers who relentlessly attack the idea that Christians should limit material possessions, and who teach congregants to say, "I want my stuff."

Tele-Evangelist Lifestyles

 

[Chica]

Thank you for such a deeply thoughtful post! I've wondered the same and have thought it's like what all advertisers know, that people see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear, regardless truth, the itching ears to hear they're not to feel guilty, "I'm okay, you're okay!", with the lure of a gospel of health and wealth seductive and blinding. I think that, beyond lust for stuff and carnality, people most like to be told they're okay with God, without having to repent, a "have your cake and eat it too" syndrome, a big helping of blessings, but, "No thanks, will pass on the cross."

itching ears to hear they're not to feel guilty, "I'm okay, you're okay!",

If you remember I told you both these things yesterday and it is what keeps the scavenger ministries in business!

 

[Chica]

Paula And Randy White

The trappings are physical as well. Both the Whites have undergone cosmetic surgery, seeming to grow younger over the past five years.
"We're on television, and you've got to look the part," Randy said....[40] The Part?

In his autobiography, "Without Walls," and on a 2002 Web profile, Randy said he enrolled at the former Lee College in Cleveland, Tenn., and earned a bachelor's degree in ministerial studies and a master's in divinity. He said he was awarded an honorary doctorate in humane letters from Virginia State University in Petersburg, Va.
Representatives from both schools said he did not receive degrees there, though Lee confirmed he took two classes.

According to documents Randy gave the Tribune in April, he received a doctorate of humane letters from Commonwealth Assistance Foundation Institute of International Studies in Alexandria, Va., in May 1993. An in-depth Internet search found no mention of the school. There is no telephone listing for it.

Since 2000, court records show five business deals that soured after the Whites refused to pay.
Jacqueline Knight, who runs a Tampa public relations and marketing company, said, "We've moved on and we're friends again" after she placed a lien on the church for $16,782 in unpaid bills in April 2002. She was paid an undisclosed sum before it got to court.

Interior designer Charles Cox, also in Tampa, is still fuming.
County Court Judge Paul Huey ordered the church to pay Cox-Feivelson Antiques and Design Gallery $10,217 for unpaid bills in November.
"They made no attempt to resolve the problem to avoid legal action, not even a phone call," he said. "I expect more of high-end clients, especially Christian ones." [40]

Tele-Evangelist Lifestyles

 

[JesusIsAll]

If you remember I told you both these things yesterday and it is what keeps the scavenger ministries in business!

Indeed you did. That was good stuff!

 

[PoetMary]

Paula And Randy White

Just fyi, the Whites divorced in 2007. She has since remarried to a musician who was formerly part of the band Journey.

Their divorce, btw, wasn't related to adultery.

 

[Chica]

SEED GIVING

This is a great article people can use to expose the Seed Giving aspect of the Properity Gospel. Great article at exposing the WoFer's use of out of context scripture. I have supplied a few excerpts from the article but please read the whole thing.


“Goodness brings its own reward and indeed leads to an increase of goodness. Nowhere, however, does Scripture propose the gaining of rewards as a motive for goodness. Giving for the sake of gain ceases to be goodness flowing from a simple and unselfish heart; it is then that very form of giving which the Apostle deprecates here – giving which is governed by covetousness.”

Or as Ralph Martin comments: “The appeal is to a motive which is not one of reward so much as a disinterested concern to reach out to the Jerusalem saints in need, and the issue is not the amount of the gift so much as the involvement it reflects (8:12).” Yet it is exactly this “giving for the sake of gain” which seems to come across so strongly and so persistently in the teachings of the prosperity gospellers
.
“There is no question,” says Murray Harris, that the Greek term in question “refers to believers’ spiritual enrichment, not their economic wealth or security.

Galatians 6:7 is often appealed to as well. In the KJV the passage reads, “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap”. This is how one prosperity teacher explains this verse: “Sow tomato seeds, and God’s law of the harvest guarantees you will reap tomatoes. Sow bean seeds, and God’s law of the harvest guarantees you will reap beans. Sow money seeds, and God’s law of the harvest guarantees you will reap money.”

However, the immediate context of the verse (vv. 7-10) has to do with sowing to the flesh or to the spirit. The struggle of spirit versus flesh has been a sub-theme running throughout Galatians, but is especially in focus in 5:13-6:10. Thus these four verses “are best understood as Paul’s bringing to conclusion the argument that began at 5:13” as Gordon Fee explains.

The purpose of these verses then is to summarise the instructions that have gone before. That is, in “6:1-10 Paul gives a series of instructions that spell out in practical terms what it means for his Galatian converts to ‘live by the Spirit’ (5:16, 25a), to ‘be led by the Spirit’ (5:18), and so to ‘keep in step with the Spirit’ (5:25b)” as Richard Longenecker writes. Money is hardly the focus of this passage.

On “Seed-Faith Giving”

 

[JesusIsAll]

However, the immediate context of the verse (vv. 7-10) has to do with sowing to the flesh or to the spirit. The struggle of spirit versus flesh has been a sub-theme running throughout Galatians, but is especially in focus in 5:13-6:10. Thus these four verses “are best understood as Paul’s bringing to conclusion the argument that began at 5:13” as Gordon Fee explains.

You see this context in their "ministries." Their gospel is centered on this world, things temporary of the flesh, not eternity and the things of God.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

A major problem people (including probably most Christians) is fear. Afraid to fly for fear of dying is an example. Many fear success, so won't pursue that. Many fall into deep fear when suddenly holding wealth, so they hoard it, hide it, even try to forget it's there. Many of those will take on an act of being in poverty. It's shameful. Christians ought not fear being wealthy enough to help whoever the Lord sends us to help, without fearing what they might ask for.

Before being able to even help someone pay their light bill I helped a friend, whose mother died, clean her house out so we could get it ready for sale. He was desperate for money for her unpaid burial and many other bills. He believed she was poor, and from the looks of her environment, was a hoarder and lacked in many ways. We found a trunk full of unopened Morgan Stanley statements. The woman was a multi-millionaire, yet nobody around her knew. She had so suffered from the effects of the Great Depression of the 1930's that the thought of spending a dime was terrifying to her. Her family continued victims of that tragedy well into the 1950's. Her husband owned a hardware store, had been investing and opening bank accounts since about 1960, buying gold, but only his wife knew. She just couldn't deal with the wealth, didn't want to know how much she owned. In her luggage piled in a closet was banded cash covered with mildew.

Now for my sermon. The Kingdom of Heaven is like......

Jesus made his sermon based on a very wealthy man and the men assigned to manage his wealth. If you think Jesus was capable of using a false doctrine or a matter of wickedness to teach righteousness, then you won't like this sermon from our Lord. He chose an analogy that sets the fearful on edge.

Matthew 25:14-30 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Jesus was not speaking of himself, but of a rich man who needed to take a very long trip, having to entrust servants with his estate, like people today use "Trust Officers" to help them manage wealth.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

An ancient Hebrew talent was a measure of our current 1,200 ounces. Those talents could have been copper, silver, or gold. If gold, then one talent today would be worth $1,440,000. If all of it was gold, the man entrusted $11,520,000 into their keeping. Most scholars think the wealthy preferred gold coins which by weight store more value than silver or copper. A bag with 75 pounds of copper would not be impressive towards investing. Silver was common among the rich for general spending in denominations most people could handle. Gold was mostly for saving up or handling big debt, such as a tax. A man could take a couple of gold coins on a trip without it being seen. A comparable value of silver would be too easily found.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

Wealth was doubled by wise business deals.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

Like the woman that died.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Keep in mind this is told by Jesus to describe the kingdom of heaven. The man made the servant a partner.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Blessings were not according to percent of performance, but being trustworthy, doing the right thing.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

How many times did Jesus command "Fear not"?

[SUP]26 [/SUP] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

He should have at least put the money in a savings account drawing interest. Instead, he operated in fear, judging the rich man.

[SUP]28 [/SUP] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

The rich man gave the servant with 10 talents that one talent, seeing the man would do the right thing with it.

[SUP]29 [/SUP] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So it is that even though God gives wealth for establishment of his kingdom, many fail to ever taste of that even when wealth goes through their hands, being unable to do significant things for the kingdom, instead cursing those who do receive and have fun spending and giving for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

Making that parable only having to do with spiritual things is a false doctrine. Jesus didn't tell lies and impossible facts to teach truth.

Those tend to live a life of gnashing of their own teeth in despair, full of covetousness, jealous of the wealth of another. They are blind to how Christians can be and often are no truster in riches, but do in fact distribute wealth, helping ministries start up and grow, keeping church doors open.

The fearful don't have riches because of this: James 4:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

So how does a fearful person deal with ministers who preach Christ, who preach all the New Testament scriptures, who do ask and receive, keep receiving tremendous blessing, resulting in ever more people saved than ever in history, ever more new congregations around the world, taking all sorts of blessings to hurting people in far away lands, if they are spending it on their own lust?

Don't be a Chicken Little. Be an overcomer, a friend of God, someone daring to believe for and ask God for something you haven't been able to imagine yet. Damning ministers who are actually taking Christ around the world will not gain respect from God. That is a form of shooting one's own foot, or cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I suggest you investigate what that jet is actually being used for. Obviously you don't know yet. Creflo is just one of many "Paul Level" ministers globe-trotting for Jesus, needing a bigger and faster plane as the ministries grow. Contributing to pay for a pound of plane a month has not hurt me, while we remain blessed, having all our needs met according to His riches.

Invest in the kingdom, where good seed is planted. I hope this site doesn't become a huge tare plantation. Sow truth.

 

[valiant]

Isn't it time Credo Dollar's jet landed and was put in the hangar? LOL

 

[JesusIsAll]

Isn't it time Credo Dollar's jet landed and was put in the hangar? LOL

Maybe you're right, but sometimes you just need a break from the homogeneity of the "lose your salvation, if you spit on the sidewalk" debate. Besides, if we're never going to get past the basic Sunday School gospel, isn't about anything fair game? It's either this, or, what, repeat ourselves five hundred more times?

 

[valiant]

Maybe you're right, but sometimes you just need a break from the homogeneity of the "lose your salvation, if you spit on the sidewalk" debate. Besides, if we're never going to get past the basic Sunday School gospel, isn't about anything fair game? It's either this, or, what, repeat ourselves five hundred more times?

I have no objection to a genuine theological debate. But I feel that attacking someone for 9 pages is more than sufficient. Especially as I've never heard of him LOL

 

[Reborn]

Maybe you're right, but sometimes you just need a break from the homogeneity of the "lose your salvation, if you spit on the sidewalk" debate. Besides, if we're never going to get past the basic Sunday School gospel, isn't about anything fair game? It's either this, or, what, repeat ourselves five hundred more times?

So true, Brother.
More and more l find myself sifting throught the recipe forum.

Did you know that if you just put whip cream on a candy bar you can call it a "cake"?
Did you know if you eat that candy bar with whip cream, and not repent, you're going to hell?

I think l may be mixing the forums up now? Sorry.

 

[JesusIsAll]

But I feel that attacking someone for 9 pages is more than sufficient.

So, you don't believe in unlimited abundance, that we shouldn't expect a hundred fold return? I do find it a shame this thread has gotten more mileage than can be achieved with some better threads. So, what encouragement is there in quality? Start getting into some aspects of Ezekiel, and I windup posting to myself, or having to reach for a Preterist swatter.

Hold on! Why am I doing an apologetic? This is ChristianChat, don't you know? You some babe from the woods or something?