Pride goes before destruction

[cmarieh]

I didn't leave it out. It was in reference to a specific point I was addressing. 1 John 1:8 is dealing with the gnostic believer who thought there was no such thing as sin. I grew up knowing someone who was a Christian Scientist. They believed sin did not exist. This is similar to the OSAS proponent and their belief today. They do not believe sin exists for them because they are forgiven of all sins past, present, and future. Sin does not exist for them on a spiritual level. Their belief is very similar to the gnostic belief. The way the OSAS proponent gets out of this is by saying they sin on a physical level but yet on a spiritual level they have no sin (Because Christ paid it all). But this denies the next verse. 1 John 1:9 follows 1 John 1:8. One is supposed to confess their sin in order to be forgiven of their sin. The OSAS proponent does not believe 1 John 1:9 is in relation to salvation but they think it has to do with merely a break in fellowship (While they are still saved). But the Scriptures say, he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). For you have to realize John was writing to the brethren and warning them about false deceivers (1 John 2:26). 1 John 2:4 and 1 John 1:6 is the context of 1 John 1:8.

I didn't mean it disrespectfully and I apologize if it came out that way. Its just that you were quoting scripture that started from 1 John 1:7 and then you skipped to 1:9 missing verse 8. That is what I meant by it missing something. Again, I sincerely apologize if I was disrespectful

 

[Jason0047]

And I'm afraid I see one every time your profile pops up. Hopefully...you...in time....discover the error of your ways. I'm guessing it will be the hard way.

So if I am wrong, why can't you explain the verses that I am talking about?

 

[Sirk]

So if I am wrong, why can't you explain the verses that I am talking about?

It's been explained to you over and over and over and over. No point in trying to explain it any further.

 

[dcontroversal]

1 John 1:8 only works in your view if that was the only verse in the entire epistle. One has to read that verse in context to other verses. 1 John 2:4 refutes the idea that one can disobey God's Commandments. For he that says he knows him and does not obey his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). So how can you always sin as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also obey his commandments as a part of 1 John 2:4? Do you not know that sin is transgression of the law? (1 John 3:4).

Whatever....there is sufficient evidence that saved children of God committed and commit sins and remain a child of God...Daniel confessed his sins, Moses SINNED and was not allowed to enter the promise land because of said sin and was on the mount of transfiguration, Peter lied three times and other than weeping there was no recorded repentance, Thomas doubted and was still an apostle....etc..keep dreamin

 

[Jason0047]

I didn't mean it disrespectfully and I apologize if it came out that way. Its just that you were quoting scripture that started from 1 John 1:7 and then you skipped to 1:9 missing verse 8. That is what I meant by it missing something. Again, I sincerely apologize if I was disrespectful

It's okay Cmarieh. No harm done at all.

I merely hope you understood what I was saying in regards to John's 1st epistle. 1 John 2:4 is in context to 1 John 1:8. However, some here do not want to see that. I say this not to wound them, but to guide them to the truth in love.

Anyways, thank you for your kind words back.

They are much appreciated.

May God bless you greatly tonight.

 

[Jason0047]

Whatever....there is sufficient evidence that saved children of God committed and commit sins and remain a child of God...Daniel confessed his sins, Moses SINNED and was not allowed to enter the promise land because of said sin and was on the mount of transfiguration, Peter lied three times and other than weeping there was no recorded repentance, Thomas doubted and was still an apostle....etc..keep dreamin

I am not denying believers have not sinned and or are not capable of sinning. But they do not stay down in the mud as sinners, though. True believers will in time perfect their walk with Christ and become stronger in Him. They do not continue to live like they used to live as a way of life. The apostles were not immoral men their entire lives. Many of them lived righteously. Not by their own power but by Christ who was working within them.

 

[Jason0047]

It's been explained to you over and over and over and over. No point in trying to explain it any further.

I am talking about the recent verses I put forth.

 

[Sirk]

I am not denying believers have not sinned and or are not capable of sinning. But they do not stay down in the mud as sinners, though. True believers will in time perfect their walk with Christ and become stronger in Him. They do not continue to live like they used to live as a way of life. The apostles were not immoral men their entire lives. Many of them lived righteously. Not by their own power but by Christ who was working within them.

And if you deep fry a chicken with feathers on it....it might start on fire. Which wouldn't be all that good....especially if you were cooking it in like your garage or something.

 

[Reborn]

I am not denying believers have not sinned and or are not capable of sinning. But they do not stay down in the mud as sinners, though. True believers will in time perfect their walk with Christ and become stronger in Him. They do not continue to live like they used to live as a way of life. The apostles were not immoral men their entire lives. Many of them lived righteously. Not by their own power but by Christ who was working within them.

First sentence?
So, we ARE capable of sinning ?

 

[Jason0047]

First sentence?
So, we ARE capable of sinning ?

Yes, but we are told to .... "sin not" by John. We are also told to confess our sins in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9) and to walk in the light as he is in the light so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). Believers are not sinners (present tense) saved by God's grace. Believers have sought out God's mercy and are forgiven of their past sin (that they have confessed) and they stay humble before Him in service to the Lord (and they are not in service to themselves and or their sin as a way of life).

Anyways, why haven't you and or anyone else (who believes as you do) explained 1 John 2:4 in relation to 1 John 1:8?

 

[Reborn]

Save the post back, Jason.

This one is too easy. I've seen you admit multiple times that we are capable, and do, yet you keep stating that you are sinless.

No need to destroy what you teach here, you do a pretty swell job of doing that yourself.
I'll leave you with 1 Timothy 1:7

 

[Jason0047]

Save the post back, Jason.

This one is too easy. I've seen you admit multiple times that we are capable, and do, yet you keep stating that you are sinless.

No need to destroy what you teach here, you do a pretty swell job of doing that yourself.
I'll leave you with 1 Timothy 1:7

When you read 1 Timothy 1:7 you also have to read 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that says, if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and he knows nothing. So we then realize that 1 Timothy 1:7 is in relation to the Law of Moses and not to the Commands given to us by our Lord in the New Testament.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, I am going to repeat a set of verses here (From another thread) to help folks see what the Scriptures are truly saying on this matter.

"For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another." (TItus 3:3).

"Thorns and snares are in the path of the wicked:
whoever guards his soul stays from them." (Proverbs 22:5).

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will (2 Timothy 2:26).

"Once you were alienated from God and you were enemies with him in your minds, which was shown by your evil actions." (Colossians 1:21).

"For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;" (1 Thessalonians 1:9).

"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not his brother abides in death. Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:14-15).

"And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness" (1 John 5:19).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

"For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry." (1 Peter 4:3).

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

"But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger" (Romans 2:8).

"As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance," (1 Peter 1:14).

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad" (Matthew 12:30).

"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." (Romans 6:17).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

 

[Reborn]

When you read 1 Timothy 1:7 you also have to read 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that says, if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and he knows nothing. So we then realize that 1 Timothy is in relation to the Law of Moses and not to the Commands given to us by our Lord in the New Testament.

Oh!!!!..so the Bible IS written to multiple groups.
When do we decide which parts of the Bible apply to us, and which parts apply to them?

Context? Isn't that interpretations and opinions?
So we teach that?
This is the pick and choose method of teaching.

Okay man, if you want to go down this road its gonna take awhile.
I already did this once today and he bailed 3 posts deep.

 

[kennethcadwell]

1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4 does not contradict each other, nor do they state one has to be completely sinless for salvation....

When you look at 2:4 it says those who say they know Him but does not keep His commandments is a liar it can be taken out of context and say a person can never break one of the 10 Commandments and have salvation.

The problem with that is they forget one fact and that is that repentance is also a command, so when one backslides and commits a sin then repents of it. They are still keeping His commandments !!!

This now however does not mean a person can continue to habitually sin the same sins every single day, and the Holy Spirit's guidance will help people to grow and refrain from doing those sins. If no change over time happens in a persons life and they continue to live the same way as they did before coming to the faith, then this is a true sign they have not been born again.


No person was sinless besides the Lord, and all believers do continue to backslide from time to time.
Once again one before they get into debates like this need to discern between backsliding and habitual sin, and until one understands this you will have debates that I see all the time. And that is; easy believism vs. self righteous

Both of those stances are wrong and therefore you have misuse of scripture verses misuse of scripture. A person can not go and continue to live a sinful lifestyle nor do they have to be completely refrain from sin in order to receive salvation. For believers will still backslide, but the difference of a saved person and a unsaved person is;

Saved person - will not sin as much, develop self control in their walk, and repent/confess sins when committed

Unsaved person - will continue to sin everyday, will not repent/confess, and will show no self control

 

[Jason0047]

Oh!!!!..so the Bible IS written to multiple groups.
When do we decide which parts of the Bible apply to us, and which parts apply to them?

Context? Isn't that interpretations and opinions?
So we teach that?
This is the pick and choose method of teaching.

Okay man, if you want to go down this road its gonna take awhile.
I already did this once today and he bailed 3 posts deep.

I accept your challenge, dear sir. Please go ahead and explain the verses if you can. Please start with explaining 1 John 1:8 in how it relates to 1 John 2:4. Then also explain how 1 Timothy 1:7 relates to 1 Timothy 6:3-4.

 

[Jason0047]

1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4 does not contradict each other, nor do they state one has to be completely sinless for salvation....

When you look at 2:4 it says those who say they know Him but does not keep His commandments is a liar it can be taken out of context and say a person can never break one of the 10 Commandments and have salvation.

The problem with that is they forget one fact and that is that repentance is also a command, so when one backslides and commits a sin then repents of it. They are still keeping His commandments !!!

This now however does not mean a person can continue to habitually sin the same sins every single day, and the Holy Spirit's guidance will help people to grow and refrain from doing those sins. If no change over time happens in a persons life and they continue to live the same way as they did before coming to the faith, then this is a true sign they have not been born again.


No person was sinless besides the Lord, and all believers do continue to backslide from time to time.
Once again one before they get into debates like this need to discern between backsliding and habitual sin, and until one understands this you will have debates that I see all the time. And that is; easy believism vs. self righteous

Both of those stances are wrong and therefore you have misuse of scripture verses misuse of scripture. A person can not go and continue to live a sinful lifestyle nor do they have to be completely refrain from sin in order to receive salvation. For believers will still backslide, but the difference of a saved person and a unsaved person is;

Saved person - will not sin as much, develop self control in their walk, and repent/confess sins when committed

Unsaved person - will continue to sin everyday, will not repent/confess, and will show no self control

But one has to forsake sin and their evil ways for the blood to cleanse them of all their sin (See 1 John 1:7). God gives us grace. But this is grace so we can conform to His image and not grace so we can keep stumbling into sin just so as to confess it all the time. God wants us to forsake our evil ways. For Jesus Christ defined repentance for us. Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, it says the Ninevites turned from their wicked and evil ways as a part of their repentance. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. Repentance involves one turning from evil and not staying down in their evil and wicked ways. See the previous verses I listed on how we used to be sinners but we are not that way anymore in Post #433.

 

[Reborn]

I accept your challenge, dear sir. Please go ahead and explain the verses if you can. Please start with explaining 1 John 1:8 in how it relates to 1 John 2:4. Then also explain how 1 Timothy 1:7 relates to 1 Timothy 6:3-4.

Ahhh, come on, man.
How can we start anywhere without first establishing if indeed scripture is intended for multiple groups. You agreed that verses are aimed at thise under the Law and those under the new.
How do we decide?
Do introductions to the books in the Bible mean anything?
Isn't it opinions that we really teach, even though we both agree The Word is 100% truth?
If the Word isn't correct and reliable, than why believe any of it?
Who then SHOULD teach.....does the Bible say?
All of the Bible is for us to profit and learn from.... but are certain chapters aimed at certain groups for a specific reason?

My answers are yup/true to all of the above

Explain those verses? Sorry man, we haven't even begun setting up the rules.

Do you think l would waste my time putting together posts that take 40 mins so you can brush them off in 10 secs?
I mean, l am a bit goofy.....but l'm not a sucker.

 

[Jason0047]

Ahhh, come on, man.
How can we start anywhere without first establishing if indeed scripture is intended for multiple groups. You agreed that verses are aimed at thise under the Law and those under the new.
How do we decide?
Do introductions to the books in the Bible mean anything?
Isn't it opinions that we really teach, even though we both agree The Word is 100% truth?
If the Word isn't correct and reliable, than why believe any of it?
Who then SHOULD teach.....does the Bible say?
All of the Bible is for us to profit and learn from.... but are certain chapters aimed at certain groups for a specific reason?

My answers are yup/true to all of the above

Explain those verses? Sorry man, we haven't even begun setting up the rules.

Do you think l would waste my time putting together posts that take 40 mins so you can brush them off in 10 secs?
I mean, l am a bit goofy.....but l'm not a sucker.

No excuses. If you know the Bible like you claim to, then you will have no trouble in explaining how the verses I put forth relate to one another within their respective texts.

 

[Sirk]

Ahhh, come on, man.
How can we start anywhere without first establishing if indeed scripture is intended for multiple groups. You agreed that verses are aimed at thise under the Law and those under the new.
How do we decide?
Do introductions to the books in the Bible mean anything?
Isn't it opinions that we really teach, even though we both agree The Word is 100% truth?
If the Word isn't correct and reliable, than why believe any of it?
Who then SHOULD teach.....does the Bible say?
All of the Bible is for us to profit and learn from.... but are certain chapters aimed at certain groups for a specific reason?

My answers are yup/true to all of the above

Explain those verses? Sorry man, we haven't even begun setting up the rules.

Do you think l would waste my time putting together posts that take 40 mins so you can brush them off in 10 secs?
I mean, l am a bit goofy.....but l'm not a sucker.

Precisely why I don't waste my time.