Eternal Security

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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#81
Salvation is PAST TENSE! Already finished, accomplished through the grace of God.

No one is saying to go and sin and revel. Every single person in this forum believes that because of the grace of God, we are obedient.

By constantly bringing up this straw man, you lose anyone who might be reading. We just shake our heads and walk away from these false accusations.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#82
He that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#83
Eternal Security (or whatever Lutzer wants to call it) says salvation is UNCONDITIONAL...it is impossible to lose salvation under ANY condition. Which means a Christian "can revel in iniquity without impunity" giving the Christian no incentive to live a godly life but gives a license to live ungodly and still be saved

Lutzer does not truly understand the implication of eternal security, for ES were true then it would not matter at all the type of life a Christian would live. One Christian could choose to live godly while another chooses to live ungodly--yet both would be saved. So the Christian would have no more incentive to live a godly life than an ungodly life.

Lutzer can live a godly life, another Christian can live an ungodly life and both are saved just the same. So what difference should it make to Lutzer if a Christian lived a godly or ungodly life?
Both are saved just the same. Both will not rule,reign or inherit the kingdom the same.

Not that we will pay rent in heaven or ever be kicked out. But we can be a renter(enter) in the kingdom or reign(inherit) with Him in the kingdom.

2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us(our reign,not salvation);
 
S

Sirk

Guest
#84
He that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
I know Him and He knows me......but I am incapable of loving God with ALL my heart at ALL times. Does that mean I'm going to hell Jason?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#85
Both are saved just the same. Both will not rule,reign or inherit the kingdom the same.

Not that we will pay rent in heaven or ever be kicked out. But we can be a renter(enter) in the kingdom or reign(inherit) with Him in the kingdom.

2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us(our reign,not salvation);
And you have to keep reading.

2 Timothy 3:1-9

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#86
Paul says they have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#87
And you have to keep reading.

2 Timothy 3:1-9

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
Acts 16:31~~Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved...
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#88
Salvation is PAST TENSE! Already finished, accomplished through the grace of God.

No one is saying to go and sin and revel. Every single person in this forum believes that because of the grace of God, we are obedient.

By constantly bringing up this straw man, you lose anyone who might be reading. We just shake our heads and walk away from these false accusations.
According to Gr8grace, it doesn't matter if you are obedient. You still will be saved. In fact, there are many OSAS proponents that say you can even commit suicide and be saved. This is wrong.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#89
Paul says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."
I don't think those who always desire to challenge others salvation are reprobates, but clearly it shows a heart that has been made hard in some way...probably hypocrisy?
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#91
According to Gr8grace, it doesn't matter if you are obedient. You still will be saved. In fact, there are many OSAS proponents that say you can even commit suicide and be saved. This is wrong.
Acts 16:31~~believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved..
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#93
Both are saved just the same. Both will not rule,reign or inherit the kingdom the same.

Not that we will pay rent in heaven or ever be kicked out. But we can be a renter(enter) in the kingdom or reign(inherit) with Him in the kingdom.

2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us(our reign,not salvation);
2 Pet 2:6 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

Anyone that lives ungodly will be lost as those of Sodom and Gomorrah.

1 Pet 4:18 "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

The saved righteous are contrasted from the ungodly.


You added something to 2 Tim 2:12 that is not there. "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Mt 10:33.
 
S

Sirk

Guest
#94
2 Pet 2:6 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

Anyone that lives ungodly will be lost as those of Sodom and Gomorrah.

1 Pet 4:18 "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

The saved righteous are contrasted from the ungodly.


You added something to 2 Tim 2:12 that is not there. "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Mt 10:33.
Is it ungodly to worship God with instruments?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#95
I don't think those who always desire to challenge others salvation are reprobates, but clearly it shows a heart that has been made hard in some way...probably hypocrisy?
You obviously miss the point of the verse. Paul is the one who is telling other believers to examine themselves and to prove their own selves on whether or not Christ is in them or not. Today, it is just a mental acknowledgment that Jesus is your Savior and you are all good. But it doesn't work like that, though. Paul's words would not make any sense in 2 Corinthians 13:5 if that was the case.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#96
OSAS believes there's no end time apostasy of the church in the last days. They believe it's impossible for a saint to apostasize. They claim such people that do weren't saved in the first place. Yet the scriptures say it will happen. One can't fall away from what they were never a part of, can they?

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(of judgement) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV) [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13:23-27 (KJV) [SUP]23 [/SUP]Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, [SUP]24 [/SUP]Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. [SUP]25 [/SUP]When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.


Now, to the readers, I have a challenge: If the above scriptures are true (they are), they all agree that there's a majority & a minority in the last days. The majority will believe they're saved, but are not; the minority will be. Since the majority are not, what will be their fruit? The Bible tells us we will know them by their fruit.

This majority will show pride, arrogance, & hatred for the minority. Their actions will prove it. This minority is always accused of all kinds of atrocities without biblical foundation. We all know who the accuser of the brethren is.
 
S

Sirk

Guest
#97
OSAS believes there's no end time apostasy of the church in the last days. They believe it's impossible for a saint to apostasize. They claim such people that do weren't saved in the first place. Yet the scriptures says it will happen. One can't fall away from what they were never a part of, can they?

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(of judgement) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV) [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13:23-27 (KJV) [SUP]23 [/SUP]Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, [SUP]24 [/SUP]Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. [SUP]25 [/SUP]When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.


Now, to the readers, I have a challenge: If the above scriptures are true (they are), they all agree that there's a majority & a minority in the last days. The majority will believe they're saved, but are not; the minority will be. Since the majority are not, what will be their fruit? The Bible tells us we will know them by their fruit.

This majority will show pride, arrogance, & hatred for the minority. Their actions will prove it. This minority is always accused of all kinds of atrocities without biblical foundation. We all know who the accuser of the brethren is.
So lets cut to the chase. Who are the majority and who are the minority?
 
F

flob

Guest
#98
OSAS believes there's no end time apostasy of the church in the last days. They believe either it's impossible for a saint to apostasize. They claim such people that do weren't saved in the first place. Yet the scriptures says it will happen. One can't fall away from what they were never a part of, can they?
No they cannot. Which is why, to the contrary of your idea:
OBAB me believes there's apostasy of the church......in all days.
That does not alter eternal destiny or predestination
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#99
So lets cut to the chase. Who are the majority and who are the minority?
Oh no, no, no...... Let the readers seek it for themselves. If they seek for the truth, they will find it.:)