The heresies of the few

Viligant_Warrior · Jun 23, 2015

My friend, I'm not certain where you get this idea, but I don't believe it is correct. Disciples of the apostles carried forth the Gospel as taught to them by their mentors. Preaching such as that done in Athens, for example, actually is teaching, and when people came to Paul after such a message, he expounded on it -- he taught them.

It was a relationship-based teaching as opposed to formal theological training, but as heresies arose in the second and third centuries, it became necessary for church leadership to establish a theological foundation so as to define proper biblical instruction. This is completely in line with Scripture, which refers to Jesus as "Teacher" 48 times, and the implication of Jesus' parting words is that when they made a disciple, they were to be taught.

Matthew 28, NASB
20 [ . . . ] teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always *, even to the end of the age."

KennethC said:

I'm sorry to contradict you, Ken, but the Bible clearly shows that the apostles engaged in a ministry of teaching the Gospel, and the expectations of the believer.

1 Corinthians 12
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. [emphasis added]

In the next verse, Paul specifically includes teachers among those of special office, as he asks if all are first apostles, then if all are prophets, and the if all are teachers. Obviously he anticipates the acknowledgement that no, not all have these appointments. Therefore, the offices mentioned have purpose in the church. Certainly if tongues were from the beginning, as I think you believe, then so teachers were also, is that not right?

If that passage isn't enough to convince, I would point out that he first named teaching as a special appointment in Romans 12:8, 7, and he repeats these same five offices in Ephesians 4:11. In light of all this, Ken, I again apologize for contradicting your post, but it certainly appears there are solid grounds for believing teaching is an office in the church, and while I agree the revelation must come by the power of the Holy Spirit, rarely if ever today does He imbue a believer directly.

After all, is it not true that ...

Romans 10
17 [ . . . ] faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ [?]

How will they hear if no one preaches or teaches, Ken? I don't mean to be disrespectful with this question, because a question is all it is, but, did the Holy Spirit give you the word directly, or did someone teach it to you?

kedge · Jun 30, 2015

Elin said:

Where does one go to get the Holy Spirit?, I have been at this search for truth since 1993. I have tried praying about certain matters, I don't pray for material riches and I don't pray for trivial things, I pray for truth and understanding of what the Bible's message really is all about other than the vindication of God, yes Satan accuses God of being an unrightful ruler over human beings? but how does anyone know which God they are praying to?, is satan known as a god or just masquerading as an angel of light?, is Satan god like?

Maybe I am just too thick to understand? a lot of it is quite confusing and to be honest I don't think I could be a Christian right now because I am commanded to love all people and I don't think I have the capablility of implicit love?, I can tolerate but I don't necessarily love anyone simply because I don't really know what love is?, although perhaps love is defined in different ways?

Elin · Jun 30, 2015

kedge said:

Where does one go to get the Holy Spirit?, I have been at this search for truth since 1993. I have tried praying about certain matters, I don't pray for material riches and I don't pray for trivial things, I pray for truth and understanding of what the Bible's message really is all about other than the vindication of God, yes Satan accuses God of being an unrightful ruler over human beings? but how does anyone know which God they are praying to?, is satan known as a god or just masquerading as an angel of light?, is Satan god like?

Maybe I am just too thick to understand? a lot of it is quite confusing and to be honest I don't think I could be a Christian right now because I am commanded to love all people and I don't think I have the capablility of implicit love?, I can tolerate but I don't necessarily love anyone simply because I don't really know what love is?, although perhaps love is defined in different ways?

I've given you the key. . .have you used it?

Viligant_Warrior · Jun 30, 2015

kedge said:

The gift of the Holy Spirit is only through faith in Christ. If, in reading and studying the Bible, you still don't have clear understanding even though you've prayed for Him to reveal truth to you, perhaps your approach to the reading and study is being derailed by skepticism? Try to read without judgment, without questions. Just let God reveal Himself. Suspend your human reasoning and read with the Spirit guiding you.

kedge · Jun 30, 2015

Elin said:

You're nice m'lady but this peasant is not worthy to turn it. I have to really believe it.

Viligant_Warrior · Jun 30, 2015

kedge said:

Actually, you can't believe it until you hear it. I fear you aren't really willing to hear it. Let go of you, of human (inferior) reason, and just hear God.

Angela53510 · Jun 30, 2015

kedge said:

Are you reading the Bible? You really need to surrender your life, repent of your sins. Then the Holy Spirit will come into your life and save you. It is God that saves, not you!

As for love, the Bible is clear that God is love (1 John 4:8, 16)

"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us." 1 John 4:7-12

kedge · Jun 30, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

Hear what exactly?, would you mind explaining your version of things heard?

Viligant_Warrior · Jun 30, 2015

kedge said:

I can speak directly to what Christ has done in me, and I can attempt to relate that to Scripture, if that's helpful.

Briefly, I was an alcoholic, disordered gambler, vet with PTSD. I drank and gambled myself into near oblivion, and my poor suffering first wife had enough. I came home one night to find my bags packed and sitting on the stoop, the locks changed. I lost family (two kids), my home, my business, my friends. Everything. Literally.

A friend, watching me wander aimlessly for weeks afterward, finally invited me to church. I'd gone to church as a kid, I remembered "feeling good" being there, but I hadn't clue one about the Gospel. I don't know why, but I decided to go with him. I sat for months in a pew, listening to a real man of God preach, but I still didn't really let it sink in. That wasn't the first time, but that's too much to absorb in one reading.

I had a court date in March, 1993, regarding the divorce. It was supposed to be about property division. But after listening to us bicker over our attorneys, call each other names, and generally ignore the decorum of the court, the judge slammed down his gavel, declared the marriage dissolved, scheduled another hearing the following week, and walked off the bench, obviously exasperated with both of us.

I was stunned. I wasn't expecting it. I didn't go back to work. I drove around for a couple hours and found myself near the church. It was a Wednesday night, at a Baptist church. I didn't figure there's any way the pastor is there at 4.30 in the afternoon. He should have been home having an early dinner and getting ready for evening service. But he was there. I went in the back way, avoiding his secretary, poked my head in his study and asked if I could talk to him. He invited me in.

Over the next three hours, I pour out all my life's garbage. At a few minutes before 6:30, his assistant pastor reminded him of the evening service. The pastor asked him if he could take it on such short notice, as he was busy.

When I finished pouring out my heart, he gave me the Gospel. Simple, direct, no frills. I was hurting because I was living in a sinful world, and I myself was a sinner. I could be healed through Christ's forgiveness of my sin, which He had paid the penalty for on the cross. He had risen to bring to me eternal life, if I believed. Did I want to shed the pain, the anger, the confusion?

Yes, I said. He said simply, "Ask Jesus to take them away. Tell Him, if you feel confident that you do believe in Him for all these things." So I did. It was 7:29 p.m. March 3, 1993, and when I stopped talking, I was a new creation. This may sound silly, but I felt the Holy Spirit come into me.

It hasn't been a bed of roses since then. I've faltered, big time. I relapsed in gambling. I've spent time in prison for forgery and fraud. But when I came out, I was renewed in my commitment to Him. I learned while locked up to stop trying to "be good" on my own and let Him take the burdens of everyday life. I accepted that, on my own, I have no strength, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. I trust Him implicitly with my life, and am grateful beyond any level of compensation to Him for what He has done in me.

Today I'm an addictions and marriage/family therapist, providing the assistance to others I wish I had been able to find back then, 22 years ago. I'm married to a beautiful, godly woman who accepted me along with my past, without judgment for what I've done, because, as she said, "I don't see that person when I look at you."

There is nothing in me that could have done all that, Kedge. I tried, repeatedly, and without success. It was only when I surrendered to the truth that I was able to see His power available to me, to be expended on my behalf to live a life in Him. When I turn back to myself, I fail. But He is always there to help me get up, put the mistakes behind me, and go on in His strength.

He has promised to give us rest. He has promised to strength us for the journey. He does both, when we willing give up our rights to ourselves and let Him lead us.

This will only make the slightest sense to you, I'm sure. We all have been used to doing everything on our own, in our own strength and power, until in exhaustion and misery, we collapse in failure. Even when we feel as though we've beaten back the wolves from the door for another day, we know they'll come back tomorrow, and the next day, and the next. But He will remove the wolves. He will remove our hurt, pain, suffering, anger, addictions -- whatever is afflicting us, He can remove, if we trust in Him to do so, and if we willing give up our own fight to eradicate them ourselves.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. God bless., Kedge. I hope you can come to terms with what I've said so poorly.

Elin · Jun 30, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

I can speak directly to what Christ has done in me, and I can attempt to relate that to Scripture, if that's helpful.

Briefly, I was an alcoholic, disordered gambler, vet with PTSD. I drank and gambled myself into near oblivion, and my poor suffering first wife had enough. I came home one night to find my bags packed and sitting on the stoop, the locks changed. I lost family (two kids), my home, my business, my friends. Everything. Literally.

A friend, watching me wander aimlessly for weeks afterward, finally invited me to church. I'd gone to church as a kid, I remembered "feeling good" being there, but I hadn't clue one about the Gospel. I don't know why, but I decided to go with him. I sat for months in a pew, listening to a real man of God preach, but I still didn't really let it sink in. That wasn't the first time, but that's too much to absorb in one reading.

I had a court date in March, 1993, regarding the divorce. It was supposed to be about property division. But after listening to us bicker over our attorneys, call each other names, and generally ignore the decorum of the court, the judge slammed down his gavel, declared the marriage dissolved, scheduled another hearing the following week, and walked off the bench, obviously exasperated with both of us.

I was stunned. I wasn't expecting it. I didn't go back to work. I drove around for a couple hours and found myself near the church. It was a Wednesday night, at a Baptist church. I didn't figure there's any way the pastor is there at 4.30 in the afternoon. He should have been home having an early dinner and getting ready for evening service. But he was there. I went in the back way, avoiding his secretary, poked my head in his study and asked if I could talk to him. He invited me in.

Over the next three hours, I pour out all my life's garbage. At a few minutes before 6:30, his assistant pastor reminded him of the evening service. The pastor asked him if he could take it on such short notice, as he was busy.

When I finished pouring out my heart, he gave me the Gospel. Simple, direct, no frills. I was hurting because I was living in a sinful world, and I myself was a sinner. I could be healed through Christ's forgiveness of my sin, which He had paid the penalty for on the cross. He had risen to bring to me eternal life, if I believed. Did I want to shed the pain, the anger, the confusion?

Yes, I said. He said simply, "Ask Jesus to take them away. Tell Him, if you feel confident that you do believe in Him for all these things." So I did. It was 7:29 p.m. March 3, 1993, and when I stopped talking, I was a new creation. This may sound silly, but I felt the Holy Spirit come into me.

It hasn't been a bed of roses since then. I've faltered, big time. I relapsed in gambling. I've spent time in prison for forgery and fraud. But when I came out, I was renewed in my commitment to Him. I learned while locked up to stop trying to "be good" on my own and let Him take the burdens of everyday life. I accepted that, on my own, I have no strength, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. I trust Him implicitly with my life, and am grateful beyond any level of compensation to Him for what He has done in me.

Today I'm an addictions and marriage/family therapist, providing the assistance to others I wish I had been able to find back then, 22 years ago. I'm married to a beautiful, godly woman who accepted me along with my past, without judgment for what I've done, because, as she said, "I don't see that person when I look at you."

There is nothing in me that could have done all that, Kedge. I tried, repeatedly, and without success. It was only when I surrendered to the truth that I was able to see His power available to me, to be expended on my behalf to live a life in Him. When I turn back to myself, I fail. But He is always there to help me get up, put the mistakes behind me, and go on in His strength.

He has promised to give us rest. He has promised to strength us for the journey. He does both, when we willing give up our rights to ourselves and let Him lead us.

This will only make the slightest sense to you, I'm sure. We all have been used to doing everything on our own, in our own strength and power, until in exhaustion and misery, we collapse in failure. Even when we feel as though we've beaten back the wolves from the door for another day, we know they'll come back tomorrow, and the next day, and the next. But He will remove the wolves. He will remove our hurt, pain, suffering, anger, addictions -- whatever is afflicting us, He can remove, if we trust in Him to do so, and if we willing give up our own fight to eradicate them ourselves.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. God bless., Kedge. I hope you can come to terms with what I've said so poorly.

Praise God!

I never get used to hearing of this powerful work of God. . .it always staggers me.

keepitsimple · Jun 30, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

I can speak directly to what Christ has done in me, and I can attempt to relate that to Scripture, if that's helpful.

Briefly, I was an alcoholic, disordered gambler, vet with PTSD. I drank and gambled myself into near oblivion, and my poor suffering first wife had enough. I came home one night to find my bags packed and sitting on the stoop, the locks changed. I lost family (two kids), my home, my business, my friends. Everything. Literally.

A friend, watching me wander aimlessly for weeks afterward, finally invited me to church. I'd gone to church as a kid, I remembered "feeling good" being there, but I hadn't clue one about the Gospel. I don't know why, but I decided to go with him. I sat for months in a pew, listening to a real man of God preach, but I still didn't really let it sink in. That wasn't the first time, but that's too much to absorb in one reading.

I had a court date in March, 1993, regarding the divorce. It was supposed to be about property division. But after listening to us bicker over our attorneys, call each other names, and generally ignore the decorum of the court, the judge slammed down his gavel, declared the marriage dissolved, scheduled another hearing the following week, and walked off the bench, obviously exasperated with both of us.

I was stunned. I wasn't expecting it. I didn't go back to work. I drove around for a couple hours and found myself near the church. It was a Wednesday night, at a Baptist church. I didn't figure there's any way the pastor is there at 4.30 in the afternoon. He should have been home having an early dinner and getting ready for evening service. But he was there. I went in the back way, avoiding his secretary, poked my head in his study and asked if I could talk to him. He invited me in.

Over the next three hours, I pour out all my life's garbage. At a few minutes before 6:30, his assistant pastor reminded him of the evening service. The pastor asked him if he could take it on such short notice, as he was busy.

When I finished pouring out my heart, he gave me the Gospel. Simple, direct, no frills. I was hurting because I was living in a sinful world, and I myself was a sinner. I could be healed through Christ's forgiveness of my sin, which He had paid the penalty for on the cross. He had risen to bring to me eternal life, if I believed. Did I want to shed the pain, the anger, the confusion?

Yes, I said. He said simply, "Ask Jesus to take them away. Tell Him, if you feel confident that you do believe in Him for all these things." So I did. It was 7:29 p.m. March 3, 1993, and when I stopped talking, I was a new creation. This may sound silly, but I felt the Holy Spirit come into me.

It hasn't been a bed of roses since then. I've faltered, big time. I relapsed in gambling. I've spent time in prison for forgery and fraud. But when I came out, I was renewed in my commitment to Him. I learned while locked up to stop trying to "be good" on my own and let Him take the burdens of everyday life. I accepted that, on my own, I have no strength, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. I trust Him implicitly with my life, and am grateful beyond any level of compensation to Him for what He has done in me.

Today I'm an addictions and marriage/family therapist, providing the assistance to others I wish I had been able to find back then, 22 years ago. I'm married to a beautiful, godly woman who accepted me along with my past, without judgment for what I've done, because, as she said, "I don't see that person when I look at you."

There is nothing in me that could have done all that, Kedge. I tried, repeatedly, and without success. It was only when I surrendered to the truth that I was able to see His power available to me, to be expended on my behalf to live a life in Him. When I turn back to myself, I fail. But He is always there to help me get up, put the mistakes behind me, and go on in His strength.

He has promised to give us rest. He has promised to strength us for the journey. He does both, when we willing give up our rights to ourselves and let Him lead us.

This will only make the slightest sense to you, I'm sure. We all have been used to doing everything on our own, in our own strength and power, until in exhaustion and misery, we collapse in failure. Even when we feel as though we've beaten back the wolves from the door for another day, we know they'll come back tomorrow, and the next day, and the next. But He will remove the wolves. He will remove our hurt, pain, suffering, anger, addictions -- whatever is afflicting us, He can remove, if we trust in Him to do so, and if we willing give up our own fight to eradicate them ourselves.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. God bless., Kedge. I hope you can come to terms with what I've said so poorly.

Elin said:

A glorious post and testimony indeed ! Keep showing that soft underbelly (heart) VW. That was an awesome and powerful read

. God be praised in Christ Jesus our Lord and King !

psychomom · Jun 30, 2015

VW, wish i could rep you for that testimony.

silly socialist rep system

Angela53510 · Jun 30, 2015

Someone please rep VW for me! I've run out of reps for him!

What a powerful and honest testimony of God's grace and love!

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The heresies of the few

Viligant_Warrior

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kedge

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Elin

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Viligant_Warrior

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kedge

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Viligant_Warrior

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Angela53510

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kedge

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Viligant_Warrior

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Elin

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keepitsimple

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psychomom

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Angela53510

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